Cobo Talk Only

[Zoncolan]

So how are there "concrete" suspicions about Cobo and not about Froome? In terms of their performances, they've both produced something pretty ridiculous this last couple of weeks.

Cobo at least has history of doing it, but only at shady teams. Froome's come out of nowhere more than Mosquera in 2007, and we know how that fairytale ended.

This. It all has to do with prejudice. Nothing else.

 

[Praetor]

I don't see Cobo's performance as being any more suspicious than that of Froome, Poels, Monfort...
He did look mighty comfortable though. Would be interesting to see what the power output was.

His performance as such might not be that suspiscious.

However= http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_palm.asp?riderid=1861&year=2010&all=1&current=0

0 points. 0. Zero. Nothing. Nada.

He leaves the nurturing womb of Mauro Gianetti (who doesn't have the cleanest of slates) for one year and completely collapses. He returns and is about to win the Vuelta.

 

[Zoncolan]

His performance as such might not be that suspiscious.

However= http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_palm.asp?riderid=1861&year=2010&all=1&current=0

0 points. 0. Zero. Nothing. Nada.

He leaves the nurturing womb of Mauro Gianetti (who doesn't have the cleanest of slates) for one year and completely collapses. He returns and is about to win the Vuelta.

And that proves what exactly? That Gianetti, just like Bruyneel and Saiz is a master at motivating his riders, nothing more

 

[hrotha]

And that proves what exactly? That Gianetti, just like Bruyneel and Saiz is a master at motivating his riders, nothing more

Sarcasm aside, you don't have a 2010 Cobo-like season just because you're off the dope (and seriously, Caisse/Movistar aren't saints either). On top of being one of the dodgiest riders around these days, he does have some serious mental issues, and he doesn't really like cycling.

 

[webvan]

Yep, looked like 2008 all over again for Cobo when he did 1/2/3 with his friends Ricco and Piepoli, where was that again, Hautacam ? when is this going to end ? Cobo made the Angliru look like a walk in the park, he was really flying on the last 6k, the 13.6% average section ! Wiggins almost fell off his bike and the TV motorbike #2 crashed (where was #3) but Cobo was just looking his dapper best.

If this were anywhere else than Spain I would see a "Rasmussen Exit" in his near future.

 

[Praetor]

And that proves what exactly? That Gianetti, just like Bruyneel and Saiz is a master at motivating his riders, nothing more

Like he motivated Piepoli, Mayo and Ricco? And like he motivated himself when he almost died in Romandy in '98 because of doping-induced complications?

 

[Scirea]

Yep, looked like 2008 all over again for Cobo when he did 1/2/3 with his friends Ricco and Piepoli, where was that again, Hautacam ? when is this going to end ? Cobo made the Angliru look like a walk in the park, he was really flying on the last 6k, the 13.6% average section ! Wiggins almost fell off his bike and the TV motorbike #2 crashed (where was #3) but Cobo was just looking his dapper best.

If this were anywhere else than Spain I would see a "Rasmussen Exit" in his near future.

So Cobo "flying" and winning the stage happened because of dope. On the other hand Froome did WAY MORE work than Cobo so far in this Vuelta plus he worked a lot for Wiggins today too and still finished only 48 seconds down on Cobo. Again, that is Chris Froome...

I don't know if he is clean or not, i certainly don't think he is getting better stuff than most of the field.

Look at his opponents:

Nibali, Scarponi, Anton, Nieve: the Giro killed them.
Froome, Mollema, Monfort, Fuglsang: is it really that surprising that Cobo is beating these guys?
Wiggins, VDB: clearly not the best tune up, they are only here because of their crash at the TdF.

 

[Zoncolan]

Cobo made the Angliru look like a walk in the park, he was really flying on the last 6k, the 13.6% average section ! Wiggins almost fell off his bike and the TV motorbike #2 crashed (where was #3) but Cobo was just looking his dapper best.

While I don't think he's clean (I doubt there are any at the top of GT racing who are 100 % clean), it had a lot to do with gearing.
@ Praetor: note the rolleyes.

 

[Frosty]

Link below shows some data for the Hautacam 2008

http://www.cyclismag.com/article.php?sid=4348

 

[Duartista]

Sarcasm aside, you don't have a 2010 Cobo-like season just because you're off the dope (and seriously, Caisse/Movistar aren't saints either). On top of being one of the dodgiest riders around these days, he does have some serious mental issues, and he doesn't really like cycling.

Exactly. Weren't many people looking at LLS's weak climbing this year and concluding that it was doping-related, i.e. leaving 'dirty' Caisse for 'clean(er)' Rabobank?

Incidentally, I'm not sure how Menchov and Ardila leaving Rabo for Geox and getting worse (at least until today, in Menchov's case) fits in to all of this.

 

[Parrot23]

Cobo rides in the style of one who IS on a perfect program....

Joe, can you elaborate on that, what you mean or see in particular?

 

[Parrot23]

However= http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_palm.asp?riderid=1861&year=2010&all=1&current=0

0 points. 0. Zero. Nothing. Nada.

Good gracious. Everyone needs to take a look at that list for some perspective

 

[The Valley]

Cobo? Dodgy. Very very dodgy. To ride up the Angliru like he did, and make a defiant, some would say arrogant gesture as he did when he crossed the line...nope. I've been around cycling too long and have seen too much. It's written all over him.

Don't even get me started on Nibali.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Exactly. Weren't many people looking at LLS's weak climbing this year and concluding that it was doping-related, i.e. leaving 'dirty' Caisse for 'clean(er)' Rabobank?

Incidentally, I'm not sure how Menchov and Ardila leaving Rabo for Geox and getting worse (at least until today, in Menchov's case) fits in to all of this.

For the record, I'm more of the mind that Abarcá Sports are a "don't ask don't tell" team rather than an organised doping one. They seem to often have a couple of guys named in rings but seldom a huge bust; LLS and Moreno with Losa, Valverde in Puerto, and so on. They certainly have a pretty decent record with doping recently in terms of people testing positive (before Rui Costa, who was found innocent, the last one iirc was Fertonani back in '07), but have harboured a number of people who've been under duress or previously banned (Plaza, Zaballa, Ventoso and of course the interminable case with Valverde), struggled when leaving their confines (Sánchez, Karpets) or who have been linked to things after leaving (Colóm).

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Cobo? Dodgy. Very very dodgy. To ride up the Angliru like he did, and make a defiant, some would say arrogant gesture as he did when he crossed the line...nope. I've been around cycling too long and have seen too much. It's written all over him.

Don't even get me started on Nibali.

The bullhorns come from his nickname, El Bisonte de la Pesa. Same as Contador doing the pistol or Flecha doing the bow and arrow.

 

[Duartista]

For the record, I'm more of the mind that Abarcá Sports are a "don't ask don't tell" team rather than an organised doping one. They seem to often have a couple of guys named in rings but seldom a huge bust; LLS and Moreno with Losa, Valverde in Puerto, and so on. They certainly have a pretty decent record with doping recently in terms of people testing positive (before Rui Costa, who was found innocent, the last one iirc was Fertonani back in '07), but have harboured a number of people who've been under duress or previously banned (Plaza, Zaballa, Ventoso and of course the interminable case with Valverde), struggled when leaving their confines (Sánchez, Karpets) or who have been linked to things after leaving (Colóm).

That may well be the case now, but didn't Mancebo say that Unzue pointed him in the direction of Fuentes back in the day?

 

[lancaster]

Cobo out climbing Wigans and Froome by a little over a minute on Angrilu is a perfectly reasonable result.

Cobo is a talented climber, and has been for years.

he could well be doped to the gills but if he is then the peloton is not clean.

the fact that he was the only rider who didn't run out of gears will have helped his performance.

a suspicious performance, yes, but not the most suspicious performance at this vuelta.

 

[webvan]

Wiguns has a big mouth, any comments yet? Did he really run out of gears?

 

[Parrot23]

Here we go....Halamala's calculations....

Vuelta a Espana 2011, Stage 15, Final climb, Angliru

From 12.0 Km remaining to mountain points banner 0.5 Km remaining = Distance 11.5 Km

Juan Jose Cobo

Elevation / Höhenmeter [m] : 1194 m
Distance / Streckenlänge [Km] : 11.5 Km
Time in seconds / Fahrzeit in Sekunden [sec] : 2353 = 39 min 13 sec = 39:13
Weight rider / Gewicht Fahrer [kg] : 69 kg
Weight bicycle, clothes etc. / Gewicht Fahrrad [kg] : 8 kg

Grade / mittlere Seigung : 10.3 %
Average speed / mittlere Geschwindigkeit : 17.5 Km/h
Total weight / Gesamtgewicht : 77.0 kg

Power : 430.6 Watt
Power / kg : 6.2 Watt / kg

From http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=8839&page=52

6.2 watts/kg perfectly reasonable. Well within his performance parameters, yes.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That may well be the case now, but didn't Mancebo say that Unzue pointed him in the direction of Fuentes back in the day?

Certainly possible, I don't recall.

 

[La Canaja]

Cobo is pulling a Santi Perez.
Only there's no ITT in the final week to prove he's the best time trialist around as well.

 

[Duartista]

Certainly possible, I don't recall.

Just looked it up - may not have been Unzue, but someone high up in the team:

He tells him that a few years before, his team director, tired of watching him always finishing no better than in 6th or 7th position in the big races despite his high class, quality and capacity for suffering, said one day: “Paquito, you have to go to the doctor, the doctor decides who wins the race, the doctor decides the general classification of the Vuelta, the Giro, those ones who don’t go with him are not worth a damn”.

http://www.newcyclingpathway.com/news/blog/on-paco-mancebo-and-operacion-puerto-carlos-arribas

 

[hrotha]

Just looked it up - may not have been Unzue, but someone high up in the team:



http://www.newcyclingpathway.com/news/blog/on-paco-mancebo-and-operacion-puerto-carlos-arribas

That article was largely bogus though. Blood transfusions aren't placebos, no matter how naturally high your hematocrit is.

 

[webvan]

wow, fascinating read, no wonder doping did nothing for Paco...

 

[Fergoose]

Me on Froome

This Vuelta Froome has:

- been dropped on an uphill stage
- only done team attacks at very specific limited points in a stage
- not done aggressive attacking performances on consecutive stages.

Plus he is also only 26 and has had a less than smooth career progression. That's why, for me, he is in a totally different category than Cobo.

Lets look at Cobo and see a list of things he has done that Froome hasn’t that I’d argue demonstrate that any attempt to suggest their performances are comparable is a nonsense. The reason for strong suspicions of Cobo:

- back to back attacks on consecutive stages pulling away from the entire peloton at full tilt (i.e. establishing he is the strongest rider bar none on both days, including yesterday, a net gain on Wiggins & Froome despite them taking turns to chase him down in the last few kilometres on a relatively modest gradient of 7-9% that suited the Sky pair better.

- his physical appearance in both attacks gave minimal indication of any physical exertion and, much more importantly, this was corroborated by no discernable loss of speed due to fatigue at any point.

- despite taking it fairly easy (i.e. looking over his shoulder repeatedly, arguably sandbagging until the last 3-4kms) on Angliru, he still bet 2008 vintage clenbuterol Contador’s time up the climb and clocked an almighty 6.2 w/kgs for the entirety of the climb (according to the power to weight thread). We can but wonder what was possible if he'd gone flat out from the time of his initial attack.

- did a stonking Time Trial that at the time was described by a commentator as “overachieving”

- is performing in a Geox squad widely ridiculed for its lack of tactical nous and pre-race preparation – despite the team shortcomings he excels nonetheless.

- has performed for a team that was so blighted by doping in the 2008 Tour, that it was withdrawn

- on said tour, was the only human being capable of staying with a clearly doping Piepolli in one of the most notoriously farcical finishes in modern times.

- on leaving his team he goes from a Top 10 Vuelta finisher in 2009 to a complete nobody in 2010, then goes to GT heir apparent in 2011 when reunited with his old buddies apparently connected to the 2008 'glory' days.

I trust that this comparison leaves little doubt that a suggestion that Froome & Cobo are peas in a pod is way off mark (although in no way is that evidence of Froome riding unaided). Each case/rider has to be studied alone on their own merits. Also, please note, I have no bias with regards folk of Kenyan or Spanish origin (although I do have a soft spot for the Kenyan Rugby 7s team). My favourite riders are probably Nibali & Sastre.

The only defence you can make against Cobo is that he hasn’t tested positive and that the guys they are beating aren’t great as they are all either clearly massively underperforming favourites, are very young/inexperienced or have a Giro or TdF in their legs.

These counter arguments just about help me to keep giving Mr Froome the benefit of the doubt (plus his w/kgs haven't been anything outrageous this Vuelta despite the unusual assumptions made by others). But the weight of argument against Cobo means I’m far less inclined to be so generous with him. Always happy to hear counter arguments though.