Cobo Talk Only

[Fergoose]

Here is someone else's thoughts and an interview with Cobo. Of course, it's likely just another Anglophone bigot. Apologies if its already been posted.

Main points of note for me.

i) Cobo totally ceased training in April this year (i.e. four months before the start of the Vuelta) - it doesn't state when he resumed training.
ii) The writer finds it specifically surprising Cobo was able to muster the energy to launch such attacks on back to back stages (which sounds awfully familiar to something some "idiot" typed not so long ago )
iii) His abject 2010 performances were not down to illness or injury

I've kind of had my fill spending time typing about Cobo (hooray says the world!)...
until the next Mountain stage (boo says the world!)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I accept the argument that Cobo is probably doping, because he probably is.

I just don't accept the argument that Froome is clean, because I don't believe that the talent gulf between a clean Froome and a dirty Cobo is that small, unless Cobo is seriously doing a terrible job of doping.

And therefore, if we assume Cobo is doping, it therefore follows that unless you consider that either:
- the benefit of Cobo's doping is worth less than 48" on Anglirú
- Chris Froome is a better cyclist than Juan José Cobo, all things equal

then this leads us to the following propositions:
- the benefit of Cobo's doping is worth more than 48" on Anglirú; Froome kept him to 48" ergo Froome must be doping as otherwise he would have lost more time
- Juan José Cobo is a cyclist of equal talent to Froome but has had to work less than Froome because of Sky's team roles, ergo either both are clean or both are doping
- Juan José Cobo is a cyclist of more talent to Froome and therefore beats him regardless of whether both are doping or not.

The problem is the lack of representative races - the Chris Froome that is racing the Vuelta is NOT the Chris Froome that has been doing little of consequence in any race for the last two and a half years, and the only time where we think Cobo was probably clean, he was also lazy and unmotivated, so we don't know what a clean, motivated Cobo can do unless we take a leap of faith.

I believe Cobo is a cyclist of at least equal talent level, and that Cobo is probably doping. Therefore I believe that in view of the extra workload placed upon him, in view of his maintaining such a small gap on somebody who I believe to be doping (and who has completed the course in less time overall than the rider in red) and in view of his having achieved so little of note to date then suddenly turning into Isidro Nozal, that it follows logically that the probability that Froome is doping is comparable to that of Cobo.

 

[daveinzambia]

"I put riders in wind tunnels too. But I don't have to put out a press release to tell people" - Marc Madiot

In fact remember seeing comments from team sky riders (cannot remember where sorry) where they had shared a hotel with one of the french teams (i am thinking AG2R) and been surprised by some of their technology. recovery chambers.

fairly useless comment but think point is other teams are doing the same or more but make less fuss. Brailsford has said he likes to encourage the reputation as likes other teams to think sky have some sort of advantage but think it back fired last year when it obviously was not working. lots of illness, lots of injuries, signed riders not performing as well as they had is not a good advert for 'science'.

lots of riders mention the professionalism of the team, but most are new signings so eager to please and probably under the watchful eye of the marketing team.

have to say that given the general dislike there seems to be for them on here outside of UK people, they are doing something really wrong with their image. Sorry gone way off topic

 

[Fergoose]

Whereas I believe Cobo need only do enough to win the Vuelta, regardless of whether or not he has more in the tank that would let him decimate the field. I further believe he did have a lot more in the tank but clearly if you are going to cheat, you will make an effort to restrict how ludicrous it looks.

Cobo went off the front and then sat with a modest 10 to 15 second gap with Anton for quite some time, clearly not pressing on at full tilt. On doubtless hearing that Froome & Wiggins hadn't cracked he will have known he needed more time, so there became a requirement for a further effort.

Cobo then stopped messing about and put the hammer down higher up the climb, completing the last 6kms of the climb 8 seconds faster than Contador (a known positive tester) did it in 2008. Froome appears to have lost approximately further 30 to 35 seconds in the remaining 6kms. These are not negligible timegaps in modern GTs.

So if my personal (and unprovable) theory that Cobo had more in the tank, but elected not to use it earlier in the climb is correct, it evades your otherwise perfectly solid logic. It might sound like I'm saying that to be awkward, but I genuinely believe that Cobo could have bolted up the mountain considerably quicker if his first attack had been full bloodied.

Finally, I think a doping Cobo who stopped training in April 2011 will be considerably weaker than a doping Cobo who had a perfect lead up to the Vuelta.

Would a non-doping Chris Froome be superior to a non-doping Cobo who stopped training in April? Entirely possible.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Seriously, you cannot believe your own "hiding doing by underperforming" theory if you think jus a little about it can you?

I mean, what's the job of the guys who try to get dopers? You can't possibly believe that they are so stupid that they'd not get what's going on just because he didn't put 2 minutes into Froome, who is know for his climbing prowness ever since his Barloworld days!

Besides, where's the benefit in using PEDs if you don't get the results out of it that you want. Cobo now only has a 20 seconds advantage, thats not even a unlucky puncture in the wrong moment, or a minor crisis at Pena Cabana. And yes, you can have a minor crisis doping or not.

 

[B_Ugli]

Only time will tell if Cobos ride was due to being:

(a) in the perfect gear
(b) on the perfect gear

The fact is that Cobo did an unbelievable ride on Angliru and history has shown to cycling fans that most unbelievable rides over the years have later proved to be just that..................unbelievable.

 

[Euskaltel!]

Two things strike me:
Firstly, Froome finished 48" behind Cobo, so why people are being so vitriolic solely against Froome I don't know. At least Froome looked like he was trying, finished at the back of a group of people ahead of his team leader who is a weaker climber and is actually a climber (A break through performance, if it happens, is always going to be a bit of a surprise...). Secondly, these comments by Nibali seem a little ominous:

Yes, he hasn’t ridden like that since the Tour stage at Hautacam in 2008,” Nibali said

Hmm...

 

[GJB123]

What I still can't get my head around is why we are discussing Froome in a thread about Cobo. So what if Froome is also doping. Doe sthat excuse Cobo doping? "Look it's not that bad, because others are also doing it." Is that seriously the argument we are seeing here?

Regards
GJ

 

[Hors-Catégorie]

So Daniel Martin wins the first 'real' summit finish stage of the Vuelta. Stage 9.
A member of Bike Pure and an undoubtedly clean rider. With Juan Jose Cobo finishing in third place. 3 seconds adrift.

Does any one here even consider that perhaps Juan Jose Cobo is not doping. And that he is just performing naturally with the best form of his career.........

 

[thirteen]

What I still can't get my head around is why we are discussing Froome in a thread about Cobo. So what if Froome is also doping. Doe sthat excuse Cobo doping? "Look it's not that bad, because others are also doing it." Is that seriously the argument we are seeing here?

just as Cobo is being discussed in the Froome thread... you'll get used to it around here.

 

[GJB123]

So Daniel Martin wins the first 'real' summit finish stage of the Vuelta. Stage 9.
A member of Bike Pure and an undoubtedly clean rider. With Juan Jose Cobo finishing in third place. 3 seconds adrift.

Does any one here even consider that perhaps Juan Jose Cobo is not doping. And that he is just performing naturally with the best form of his career.........

Yep, I can say I have considered that but the Angliru performance and the way that came about, made that the least likely conclusion possible for me at least.

Let's just say I would not be suprised if we hear of a positive test in the near future.

Regards
GJ

 

[Hors-Catégorie]

What gear ratio's were Juan Jose Cobo using......?????

 

[GJB123]

What gear ratio's were Juan Jose Cobo using......?????

If understood correctly 34-32, but I haven't seen that confirmed.

Regards
GJ

 

[doperhopper]

Cobo's secret

Ladies and gentlemen,
you can stop speculating about big nose, EPO or other PEDs, gearing, cadence, W/kg, etc - the magic secret of JJ is:

NO GLOVES!

did not have them back in 2008 on Hautacam (Piepoli had them so he had to dope), probably had to wear them in Caisse (sponsor exposure), and now back in his magic outfit... hard to say why, maybe less sweating, better grip (that's why it showed up in Angry Lou, not on lesser clims), less pressure on veins, few grams less weight... invent your own explanation.

What? Do you have more fancy story?

 

[Bumeington]

Whereas I believe Cobo need only do enough to win the Vuelta, regardless of whether or not he has more in the tank that would let him decimate the field. I further believe he did have a lot more in the tank but clearly if you are going to cheat, you will make an effort to restrict how ludicrous it looks.

Cobo went off the front and then sat with a modest 10 to 15 second gap with Anton for quite some time, clearly not pressing on at full tilt. On doubtless hearing that Froome & Wiggins hadn't cracked he will have known he needed more time, so there became a requirement for a further effort.

Cobo then stopped messing about and put the hammer down higher up the climb, completing the last 6kms of the climb 8 seconds faster than Contador (a known positive tester) did it in 2008. Froome appears to have lost approximately further 30 to 35 seconds in the remaining 6kms. These are not negligible timegaps in modern GTs.

So if my personal (and unprovable) theory that Cobo had more in the tank, but elected not to use it earlier in the climb is correct, it evades your otherwise perfectly solid logic. It might sound like I'm saying that to be awkward, but I genuinely believe that Cobo could have bolted up the mountain considerably quicker if his first attack had been full bloodied.

Finally, I think a doping Cobo who stopped training in April 2011 will be considerably weaker than a doping Cobo who had a perfect lead up to the Vuelta.

Would a non-doping Chris Froome be superior to a non-doping Cobo who stopped training in April? Entirely possible.

At 1k to go, Cobo's gap to Froome was 1:20. At the line, it was 48 seconds. If Cobo was not going full tilt how do you explain this? For reference, Cobo did the last kilometer in the same time as Wiggins, who every agrees was totally spent.

 

[webvan]

Well it was very confusing and we only had pictures of Cobo, the Moto 2 having crashed when Wiggins couldn't keep up, but the last gaps we had before the finish (at 1k ?) were 43" for Cobo on the group of 3 and 1"01 on Wiggins. So he did keep in increasing the gap.

 

[roundabout]

Well it was very confusing and we only had pictures of Cobo, the Moto 2 having crashed when Wiggins couldn't keep up, but the last gaps we had before the finish (at 1k ?) were 43" for Cobo on the group of 3 and 1"01 on Wiggins. So he did keep in increasing the gap.

This. Also the last 500 meters are pretty easy.

 

[hrotha]

At 1k to go, Cobo's gap to Froome was 1:20. At the line, it was 48 seconds. If Cobo was not going full tilt how do you explain this? For reference, Cobo did the last kilometer in the same time as Wiggins, who every agrees was totally spent.

The 1:20 gap was to Wiggins, not to Froome. The last 800 meters or so were downhill.

 

[The Hitch]

So Daniel Martin wins the first 'real' summit finish stage of the Vuelta. Stage 9.
A member of Bike Pure and an undoubtedly clean rider. With Juan Jose Cobo finishing in third place. 3 seconds adrift.

Stage 9 was not the first real summit finish. Stage 4 finished on the Sierra Nevada, 20km at over 5%

But the reason i am quoting your post is that im very intrigued how you know beyond doubt that Dan Martin is a clean rider. Im a fan of Danny boy too, but you cant just go around saying a rider is "undoubtedly clean" just because you like them.

 

[Hors-Catégorie]

Stage 9 was not the first real summit finish. Stage 4 finished on the Sierra Nevada, 20km at over 5%

But the reason i am quoting your post is that im very intrigued how you know beyond doubt that Dan Martin is a clean rider. Im a fan of Danny boy too, but you cant just go around saying a rider is "undoubtedly clean" just because you like them.

Well perhaps You should inform Les Clarke about that. As I was just quoting from his article on cycling news : http://www.cyclingnews.com/vuelta-a-espana/stage-9/results "The first 'real' summit finish of this year’s Vuelta a España "

I suppose it all comes down to how one perceives the word 'real' cognitively.

I am well aware that stage 4 finished on the Sierra Nevada.

As for Dan Martin I am not stating that he is a clean rider because, as You state " I maybe a fan or I like them. I am a neutral when it comes to cycling. I have no favourites.

I am just stating that Dan Martin is a clean rider because that is the General consensus of opinion. But I am sure there are those that will argue otherwise...... Just like Greg Lemond. Andy Hampsten. Great examples of clean riders.

Yes and I will go on the record and state that Dan Martin is a clean rider. In the same way that I consider Bradley Wiggins to be a clean rider undoubtedly........

These Guy's are professional athletes. They are not hospital cases. Or perhaps that will conjour up images of the Us Postal Bus full of cycling patients getting their blood topped up with Autologous blood transfusions.

And I would just like to add that I am well versed on the extent of the doping culture in cycling.

But this thread is about Cobo. Is he a hospital patient also...?????

 

[Midnightfright]

Most people seem to be ignoring the most damning evidence that Cobo is a big time Doper and that's his incredibly shifty eyes and thin evil lips

 

[Hors-Catégorie]

Most people seem to be ignoring the most damning evidence that Cobo is a big time Doper and that's his incredibly shifty eyes and thin evil lips

So do You want to hold this image up in front of the World Anti-Doping Agency or the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

 

[Hors-Catégorie]

But the reason i am quoting your post is that im very intrigued how you know beyond doubt that Dan Martin is a clean rider.

Have You got evidence to suggest otherwise...???that is of course...coming from a neutrals perspective.

 

[Ferminal]

Could you please resize the image (or just link to it instead)? Preferably no more than 500px wide.

(Sorry that the forum software does not have auto resizing).

 

[Hors-Catégorie]

Could you please resize the image (or just link to it instead)? Preferably no more than 500px wide.

(Sorry that the forum software does not have auto resizing).

Yep no problem.