Comprehensive Climbers Ranking

[mithro]

Not only that. Seixas was at altitude following a monk training protocol while Jonas (as far as I know) still hasn't been at altitude and casually drops better opposition on harder terrain.

Jonas was training at Tenerife already.

 

[BubbaChuck]

My man you gotta put CDA on upper limit for San Remo.It was great perf by pog,but he could be better.

 

[Peyresourde]

My man you gotta put CDA on upper limit for San Remo.It was great perf by pog,but he could be better.

Do you have specific knowledge or a source on Pogacar's CdA? I already set it extremely low. Maybe I am too high on the CRR which is also more important at high speeds, but it is not like Cipressa is the smoothest road in the world.


Maybe he can do even better, but then the other riders can just pack in and go home.
Could you tell what you base your opinion on that he did not do that great?

If it is just because he did not drop Pidcock: Pidcock is probably the second/third best rider in the world on 5 minute efforts and at those speeds you save a lot in the draft.

 

[vappa]

Do you have specific knowledge or a source on Pogacar's CdA? I already set it extremely low. Maybe I am too high on the CRR which is also more important at high speeds, but it is not like Cipressa is the smoothest road in the world.


Maybe he can do even better, but then the other riders can just pack in and go home.
Could you tell what you base your opinion on that he did not do that great?

If it is just because he did not drop Pidcock: Pidcock is probably the second/third best rider in the world on 5 minute efforts and at those speeds you save a lot in the draft.

I think it was meant because he was greatly aided by a convoy of motos very close before him. That alone should make every calculation basically impossible to get accurately

 

[BubbaChuck]

0.275–0.310 range.So you get 7.4 on cipressa nd 7.3 on poggio.

 

[BubbaChuck]

BTW Tom was swimming in free air behind pogacar. Even when got up, he was riding in vacuum. peopele dont understand poagacar engine.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

@Peyresourde how would you assess Remco 2022/2024 vs Roglic 2023/2024?

 

[Old-school]

If you also look at shorter climbs, Seixas in Faun Ardeche did a stronger performance than Vingeggaard on Pal for certain.

I don't know about details of your calculation of Seixas performance, but I've seen a calculation from a reliable source which considers a difference of 20 watts(std watts 70 kg) compare to Pogi performance during the 2025 EC. Because of wind favorable for him versus headwind for Pogi.

 

[Peyresourde]

0.275–0.310 range.So you get 7.4 on cipressa nd 7.3 on poggio.

I used a CdA in the 0.28 range and calculated with the J. Martin method and used 60kg etalon w/kg to get to my result. So in real watts, he did a bit less then the 7.94 I had as my result as he is heavier than 60kg.

7.4 for Cipressa definitely seems impossibly low for me. How would he destroy the whole peloton with those watts? I am 1000% certain he pushed more than 7.4 w/kg. The moto-escort also happened on the Poggio and not yet on the Cipressa.

@Peyresourde how would you assess Remco 2022/2024 vs Roglic 2023/2024?

The climbers ranking is on page 1 and most of the 10 performances used there are from those years. In terms of w/kg, they were almost at the same level those 3 years.
Roglic used to be more consistent and better at fresh w/kg, while Evenepoel might have been better after high kj stages (when on form).

I don't know about details of your calculation of Seixas performance, but I've seen a calculation from a reliable source which considers a difference of 20 watts(std watts 70 kg) compare to Pogi performance during the 2025 EC. Because of wind favorable for him versus headwind for Pogi.

Are you talking about velo2max?

The climb is in east-west direction. If I remember correctly, the wind changed from south to north (the two prevalent wind directions in the Rhone-valley) just before they did the climb.

It does not really matter much if south or north (both neutral wind directions for the climb). It is theoretically possible that the wind there changed just during the climb and was more of a tailwind for a very short timeframe. But this is really stretching it and extremely unlikely.

 

[BubbaChuck]

You are right, it was crazy oerformance. 7.94 is very good estimation.

 

[Old-school]

Are you talking about velo2max?

Yes exactly. He said that the whole peloton performance during this climb in Faune Ardeche was better than during EC, which could be the sign of better conditions.
In fact I was questioning myself if even with 20 watts less, Seixas performance still places him at a comparable level to Jonas.....

 

[Peyresourde]

Yes exactly. He said that the whole peloton performance during this climb in Faune Ardeche was better than during EC, which could be the sign of better conditions.
In fact I was questioning myself if even with 20 watts less, Seixas performance still places him at a comparable level to Jonas.....

Frankly, he sounds very sure about some things that are either not certain or even opposite of what he claims. I have watched some his videos and:

- He regularly talks down performance gain of the equipment, but strangely only focuses on the bikes themselves (which indeed have not improved that much). But he seems to ignore/dispute the big gains in tire technology (even though he uses seriously low CRR to calculate his watts), jerseys/skinsuits, helmets etc.

- I think he calculated Plateau de Beille (Tour 2024) and Valmeinier (Dauphine 2025) both at 450 standard watts when PdB was clearly higher w/kg.

- He is sceptical about modern nutrition (which is fine to an extent). But he claims the athletes already consumed a lot 10 and 20 years ago and that additonal carbs don't have an effect when every rider and coach says the opposite.

- For his calculation he seems to neglect a few factors like entry and exit velocity

- I have no idea about the physiological part of his work. But to claim there is a strict limit on human physiology because he read something in a study when a guy like Pogacar (or e.g. Klaebo in cross country skiing) is obviously an extreme outlier that may not be covered at all by these kind of studies does not make sense to me.


Specifically on Seixas in Faun Ardeche:
There are a few factors that make his performance (a bit) worse than Pogacar's last year: The race was less hard (before and after the climb) and last year the pace in the first few minutes was so slow that Pogacar 'wasted' a lot of time.

A difference of 20 standard watts (or around 0.3 w/kg) is borderline impossible in my opinion. As for the argument of field strength, he dropped Martinez and Jorgenson, both on very good form. He also barely had any draft the whole climb.
For me it is clearly the best single climb performance of the year (15+ minute climbs only).

 

[Old-school]

Thanks for this detailed reply.
I agree with you that any specialist who claims to know the physiological limits of human beings is not "serious".
This is the main flaw of many people who want to fight against cheaters.
To get back to PS, I am also convinced that this day at Faune he was flying (he said after the race he was always capable to push more on the pedals when needed).

 

[BubbaChuck]

Any interest in historical numbers.Lets compare Eddie and Pogacar. Who is really stronger.

 

[hayneplane]

Yes exactly. He said that the whole peloton performance during this climb in Faune Ardeche was better than during EC, which could be the sign of better conditions.
In fact I was questioning myself if even with 20 watts less, Seixas performance still places him at a comparable level to Jonas.....

It was also a much more passive race prior to the climb than in the EC so they were comparatively a lot fresher.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Performance of the year in my book. I'm guessing that it will index as that as well, @Peyresourde?

 

[Peyresourde]

The climb has a rough surface, so the uncertainty is slightly higher. My preliminary results for today:

Paul Seixas | 86 (-4): 6.75 W/kg for 24:56 on San Miguel de Aralar (Basque 2026)
Florian Lipowitz | 73 (-4): 6.4 W/kg for 25:54 on San Miguel de Aralar (Basque 2026)

This is better than Vingegaard on Pal (Catalunya), but the pacing today seems to have been very good. So I don't think this level would have been quite enough to drop Vingegaard.

His performance in Faun Ardeche was still a bit better, but this is nevertheless a confirmation of his level.


The others (Del Toro, Ayuso, Roglic) are on bad form and Lipowitz who could have gone a little bit faster did not pace as consistently.

 

[vappa]

The climb has a rough surface, so the uncertainty is slightly higher. My preliminary results for today:

Paul Seixas | 86 (-4): 6.75 W/kg for 24:56 on San Miguel de Aralar (Basque 2026)
Florian Lipowitz | 73 (-4): 6.4 W/kg for 25:54 on San Miguel de Aralar (Basque 2026)

This is better than Vingegaard on Pal (Catalunya), but the pacing today seems to have been very good. So I don't think this level would have been quite enough to drop Vingegaard.

His performance in Faun Ardeche was still a bit better, but this is nevertheless a confirmation of his level.


The others (Del Toro, Ayuso, Roglic) are on bad form and Lipowitz who could have gone a little bit faster did not pace as consistently.

Lipowitz continues to impress me with his horrible pacing strategies. He's strong af but rides so weirdly

 

[Pozzovivo]

The climb has a rough surface, so the uncertainty is slightly higher. My preliminary results for today:

Paul Seixas | 86 (-4): 6.75 W/kg for 24:56 on San Miguel de Aralar (Basque 2026)
Florian Lipowitz | 73 (-4): 6.4 W/kg for 25:54 on San Miguel de Aralar (Basque 2026)

This is better than Vingegaard on Pal (Catalunya), but the pacing today seems to have been very good. So I don't think this level would have been quite enough to drop Vingegaard.

His performance in Faun Ardeche was still a bit better, but this is nevertheless a confirmation of his level.


The others (Del Toro, Ayuso, Roglic) are on bad form and Lipowitz who could have gone a little bit faster did not pace as consistently.

I find it likely that this performance was better than Vingegaard on Pal. Not sure about dropping Vingegaard either but putting a minute into a strong group on a 25-26 min climb after a relatively easy stage seems very convincing.

Surprised about the relatively modest index. If you give it an overly high rolling resistance, how high would it be @Peyresourde?

Not being MTNT finish probably had an impact.

 

[Lequack]

Lipowitz continues to impress me with his horrible pacing strategies. He's strong af but rides so weirdly

If he just tucked in his elbows he could go faster. It looks like he's riding a bull.

 

[Peyresourde]

I find it likely that this performance was better than Vingegaard on Pal. Not sure about dropping Vingegaard either but putting a minute into a strong group on a 25-26 min climb after a relatively easy stage seems very convincing.

Surprised about the relatively modest index. If you give it a overly high rolling resitance, how high would it be @Peyresourde?

Not being MTNT finish probably had an impact.

It was clearly better than Pal (81 Index) as I have said, but not enough to claim he would have dropped that Vingegaard. With higher CRR it might have been 6.8 w/kg.

The stage was only 130 k long before the climb and it was a big peloton at the bottom. I do give a positive adjustment if a climb is not a MTT (in this case +1 because there was only a descent and short kicker left).

Overall, I am reasonably confident in my estimates. Lipowitz was on the same level as in Catalunya and here riders like Baudin and Izagirre were in the first chase group. I still rate his Faun Ardeche performance slightly higher (same % gap to chase group that worked better than today and very aggressive pacing).


And just to clarify: It was an impressive performance for this time of the year, even the best spring Pogacar (Catalunya 24, UAE 25) and Vingegaard (Basque 23, Tirreno 24) were only at an equal level to this.

 

[Red Rick]

What reason did anyone in G2 have to go full gas to the top of Aralar when at most you get 10s and yourself isolated?

These dynamics always inflate the gap on the climb that's not the MTF, especially when there's terrain in front where a lone rider is disadvantaged (especially as a chase without car/motor nearby).

 

[vappa]

If he just tucked in his elbows he could go faster. It looks like he's riding a bull.

Red one?😏

 

[Pozzovivo]

It was clearly better than Pal (81 Index) as I have said, but not enough to claim he would have dropped that Vingegaard.

Perhaps I expressed myself so clumsily that it sounded as though we disagreed, when in fact we agree on this.

Thanks for indexing the performances!

 

[DoYouEvenRideBruh]

This post has gotten much better peer review than most academic papers I've been reading recently