Contador 2010

[theyoungest]

Whatever happened behind the scenes, it was pretty clear that AC was getting food, water, support, etc. from the team and the 'independant actions that he took were in places where AC was in a position of maximum benefit. The team never deliberately dropped him, leaving him in a come from behind situation.

Well whooptidoo, that's the least you can expect from a team. Which is wat Contador got last year: the least he could expect.

 

[Señor_Contador]

I read things like this and cannot help but wonder why some people take such a delight, even desire, to see heros fall?

I do not consider Lance a hero. And neither do many people. Lookey hiah Pancho Villa is considered a villain in the US and a hero in Mexico. It really depends on whose side you're on. YOU connect the dots.

LA beat cancer to win the Tour seven times, is an undoubtedly sucessful businessman, and you'd think, based on many of the posts from people who profess to have some sort of personal insight to the man that he was just publically revealed to be in cohoots with Somali pirates or something?

Look, I don't know what you're trying to say here... I am critizicing Lance Armstrong the cyclist, not the cancer survivor. I understand he motivates a lot of human beings and I respect that. But make no mistake, I am criticizing the guy who rides the TdF on two wheels.

Having said this, yes, Lance WAS a fantastic champion and deserves lots of credit, but please understand that those of us who've decided to turn the page and follow OTHER American and international cyclists find this new paradigm a bit insulting. I mean, who here in the US can say that anything about cycling hasn't mutated into The Lance Armstrong Show? I could care less about Lance at this point. He's one more cyclist in the peloton, and he ought to behave that way (although I suspect his ego begs to differ).

Honestly, do we really think that JB & LA are sitting around with professional psychs trying to figure out ways to destroy AC ... but doing so in a manner that makes them look good publically? Or is there an element of normal trash talking that goes in any high level sports rivalry?

To me, last year, JB and LA conspired to have Lance win the TdF. Had Armstrong gotten the yellow jersey after the TTT there would've been no conceivable way for Alberto to take it away from him without creating an international conflict Mr. Bush would've been happy to send B52s to. And this is all because business opportunity got in the way of cycling. And... who are the business partners? That's right, none others than JB and LA.

I say enough already, and let's stay focused on what professional athletes can do and may do ON THE BIKE where it matters.

I think that has been done already. Sorry to break it to ya, but Contador smoked Armstrong.

That being said, AC will not be as strong this year as he was last year. Whatever happened behind the scenes, it was pretty clear that AC was getting food, water, support, etc. from the team and the 'independant actions that he took were in places where AC was in a position of maximum benefit.

The only position of benefit Alberto was exposed to was getting his a$$ up ahead in every mountain stage without any help from any of his teammates, just in case. NONE of the Astanas could keep up with Alberto, except from Kloden here and there. Thus the "maximum benefit" can really be truncated to an "everywhere": TT, mountains... except ambushes of course.

Let me ask you something simple: When was Alberto hauled up a col by an Astana in this past year's TdF? Oh, I'm sorry, that's right, they were conserving energy for this year's TdU.

The team never deliberately dropped him, leaving him in a come from behind situation.

What do you call the Le Grande-Motte stage then? It looked to me like Zubeldia and Popovych were taking turns putting time on AC. Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot it's not backstabbing when Lance does it: It's called "team tactics". Who are we kidding here? I mean, in which of Lance's 7 TdF wins was a competing teammate remotely allowed to get into a breakaway and put time on Lance? Was Floyd ever allowed to fly solo? I'd like to know. I remember Heras once tried going solo and JB dished him a verbal assault that would make Genghis Khan go "Holly shít dude! Come down!".

Next year, he will not have such a strong team, and if he does take independant action, it may not be in positions where he can gain maximum benefit as he did last year. He may still be the strongest, but he will be taken down a notch or two with the 'new' team.

And I guess Alberto saying, repeatedly, that this year the TdF will be a lot easier because he does not have to deal with all this internal stress has nothing to do with it. Moreover, I guess Alberto's attacks (his strong point) in last year's TdF were preceded by Astana's (or Discovery's, or Postal's) famous fast-paced tempo... Wait, no, that was not the case... Methinks and mesaw Saxo Bank doing all that. Half of Astana was busy hauling Lance up every hill.

That leave AC open to several riders. Andy Schleck seems passed over in most discussions, but he saw immediately where his weaknesses were last year, and he has no doubt been seeking to address those issues ever since. He will also have an incredibly strong and very dedicated team behind him this year. IF AC has been knocked down a notch or two, AS will clearly be up a notch or two and is just beginning to come into his full prowess.

I've never passed over Andy at any point. I actually think he is Contador's biggest rival, and will most likely beat the Spaniard on more than one ocasion. He's already improved in the ITT, all he needs is a little more kick in the mountains and then I'd be shítting bricks if I were Alberto.

Not too mention, if there is anyone who will benefit from AC and LA tearing each other apart, it will be AS.

You don't get it don't ya? Lance Armstrong will not beat Andy or Alberto in this year's TdF. There's no "benefitting" from anything.

Finally, Lance's power is well above where it was this time last year. Whether you like or hate the guy, he is a fiercely driven and determined cyclist. He is obviously motivated his year, and he will be coming to the Tour with a chip on his shoulder.

Good for him! He's going to need all the power he can get his hands on.

 

[Carboncrank]

I see him as having more upside potential than downside. The downsides are the cobbles, his teammates (not a lot new there since his old teammates weren't too handy either, at least at the tdf, but one can never know until they get some races under their belts), screwball management, and of course the same unknowns that anyone can face, sickness, injury, crashes, better dope testing.

I see a lot of potential for the upside, i think he learned a whole lot last year both at the tdf and at Paris Nice. The team is probably slightly more loyal, but again, seeing is believing. I think that he stands a much better chance of having a teammate willing to sacrifice for him this year than at the '09 tdf.

The bigger question is will Andy or some other rival improve from last year a lot. If so, then it could be very dicey. If not, then, all other things being equal, keep the rubber side down and stand on the top step in July.

Funny, I don't recall anyone here criticizing Johann when he won with Alberto in 07, or when they won the giro and Vuelta in 08. Suddenly in 09 he's a poor manager, a lousy tactical, and spends his nights conspiring with snydley whiplash.

This will be an interesting year. Alberto still the favorite even though a lot of questions still need answers about his team.

He's not gong to be under any less pressure in his new situation. A different kind of pressure maybe, but pressure nonetheless. The pressure of less race support than he had in his last several years.

I think Alberto is very exciting as a racer, but as a personality, I find him boring, a complete snooze. It would help the sport if he'd get off this man of few words routine. I can see he's introverted by nature but he's now a superstar he owes his sport more of his time than he's given. I hope that gets better.

 

[Digger]

Funny, I don't recall anyone here criticizing Johann when he won with Alberto in 07, or when they won the giro and Vuelta in 08. Suddenly in 09 he's a poor manager, a lousy tactical, and spends his nights conspiring with snydley whiplash.

This will be an interesting year. Alberto still the favorite even though a lot of questions still need answers about his team.

He's not gong to be under any less pressure in his new situation. A different kind of pressure maybe, but pressure nonetheless. The pressure of less race support than he had in his last several years.

I think Alberto is very exciting as a racer, but as a personality, I find him boring, a complete snooze. It would help the sport if he'd get off this man of few words routine. I can see he's introverted by nature but he's now a superstar he owes his sport more of his time than he's given. I hope that gets better.

Yeah he should just get on twitter and start criticising other professionals - that's both honourable and entertaining.

 

[gree0232]

Well whooptidoo, that's the least you can expect from a team. Which is wat Contador got last year: the least he could expect.

Hmmm .... and the great conspiracy theorists seem to think that there was an active attempt to sabotage AC ... by switching wheels to make him lose the Tour? Or by somehow not supporting him when he rode on up the road in move that were apparently uncoordinated with the rest of the team? This is the grand sabotage campaign,? Honestly, it would take a something a little more nefarious than that to make AC lose the Tour.

So, to clear this up, AC makes moves because he think the team won't support him, but the team can't support him because he made the independant moves. At some point we are all adults, and whatever you motoivation for a decision, you are still responsible for the results. AC went alone, and he won. Trying to turn that into a bash on someone else is pointless.

AC is a big boy, treat him like one.

 

[gree0232]

I do not consider Lance a hero. And neither do many people. Lookey hiah Pancho Villa is considered a villain in the US and a hero in Mexico. It really depends on whose side you're on. YOU connect the dots.



Look, I don't know what you're trying to say here... I am critizicing Lance Armstrong the cyclist, not the cancer survivor. I understand he motivates a lot of human beings and I respect that. But make no mistake, I am criticizing the guy who rides the TdF on two wheels.

Having said this, yes, Lance WAS a fantastic champion and deserves lots of credit, but please understand that those of us who've decided to turn the page and follow OTHER American and international cyclists find this new paradigm a bit insulting. I mean, who here in the US can say that anything about cycling hasn't mutated into The Lance Armstrong Show? I could care less about Lance at this point. He's one more cyclist in the peloton, and he ought to behave that way (although I suspect his ego begs to differ).



To me, last year, JB and LA conspired to have Lance win the TdF. Had Armstrong gotten the yellow jersey after the TTT there would've been no conceivable way for Alberto to take it away from him without creating an international conflict Mr. Bush would've been happy to send B52s to. And this is all because business opportunity got in the way of cycling. And... who are the business partners? That's right, none others than JB and LA.



I think that has been done already. Sorry to break it to ya, but Contador smoked Armstrong.



The only position of benefit Alberto was exposed to was getting his a$$ up ahead in every mountain stage without any help from any of his teammates, just in case. NONE of the Astanas could keep up with Alberto, except from Kloden here and there. Thus the "maximum benefit" can really be truncated to an "everywhere": TT, mountains... except ambushes of course.

Let me ask you something simple: When was Alberto hauled up a col by an Astana in this past year's TdF? Oh, I'm sorry, that's right, they were conserving energy for this year's TdU.

And I guess Alberto saying, repeatedly, that this year the TdF will be a lot easier because he does not have to deal with all this internal stress has nothing to do with it. Moreover, I guess Alberto's attacks (his strong point) in last year's TdF were preceded by Astana's (or Discovery's, or Postal's) famous fast-paced tempo... Wait, no, that was not the case... Methinks and mesaw Saxo Bank doing all that. Half of Astana was busy hauling Lance up every hill.



I've never passed over Andy at any point. I actually think he is Contador's biggest rival, and will most likely beat the Spaniard on more than one ocasion. He's already improved in the ITT, all he needs is a little more kick in the mountains and then I'd be shítting bricks if I were Alberto.



You don't get it don't ya? Lance Armstrong will not beat Andy or Alberto in this year's TdF. There's no "benefitting" from anything.



Good for him! He's going to need all the power he can get his hands on.

Poncho Villa? So you are saying that a man you kidnapped, murdered, and raped his way through Northern Mexico is 'widely' respected throughout Mexico? So whether we like or dislike a guy has nothing to do with his actions and everything to do with our International and ethnic perspective?

You then turn to make the same hacked over accussations that amount to a grand conspiracy against AC in this years Tour, and then claim "he smoked him on the bike" (where apparently it matters - but thanks for the excuses anyway!)

The idea that AC, far stronger than Lance in mountains, "couldn't get the yellow jersey if Lance got it in the TTT," is rediculous (much less that we would carpet bomb France in the event that Lance lost Tour!) As soon as any other team sends a guy up the road and Lance cannot go with him up the road, and he could not - away goes AC.

Lance admitted as much after the first mountain stage.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe Lance, having won the Tour seven times, might have an idea or two about tactics in a cycling race? You think possibly that JB who won four Grand Tours with AC, and had to put up with similar accussations regarding Levi in the Vuelta, might be able to manage egos AND have a plan for victory? You think they might have had a coordinated plan, particularly after the first stage, that would maximize the benefits of the race and keep AC on top?

Kinda hard to coordinate a plan when the one of the key players just does his own thing though isn't it? It is clear that AC did not trust his team, whether that is entirely his fault is debateable - BUT AC IS GROWN BOY WHO CAN EITHER BE PART OF THE PROBLEM OR PART OF THE SOLUTION.

Did AC ever sit down with JB, like an adult with some insecurities, and tell him point blank that he didn't think the team was going to support him? Or did he just nurse his fears in private and then act out on the road to silence even the possibility of his fears being realized?

And there were damages to the team effort because of AC's actions. Astana had several podium contenders, and there appeared that there was a good shot at getting a 1-2-3 team finish. Kinda hard to do that when #1 rides up the road with the biggest threats in the race against his own team (and lets them win the stage too boot!)

People like to bash LA for not having to deal with things that AC did in this years tour. True. But how many times did LA ride up the rode against his own team? In 2001 when he stopped to get his team mates back into the stream of the TTT he was clearly acting on his own? (Wasn't one of the riders Heras?) The rebuttal out there is that if Lance never had to ride against his own team, the retort is that neither did AC.

Now, eight of those riders who had a shot at a 1-2-3 finish in the Tour, who delivered AC to the top step of the podium, are going to be behind Lance next year, who will not be recovering from a broken collar bone, whose power is well ahead of lasts year, and you think that Lance is just going to show up and ... flatten?

Honestly, how much Lance bashing analysis is just the poncho villa equivalent? Lance can't win because I like AC? Well, I will tell you that AC and AS will be watching him next year, and they will probably take LA a little more seriously than simply stating, "there is no way he can beat us! - Especially if we ride up the road together again!" (Sorry, I couldn't resist the last bit).

LA was able to come out of retirement, break his collar bone, deal with a massive personality conflict with the current strongest grand tour rider in the world and still pull off a third place in this years Tour. Whether you like Lance or not, you underestimate him at your own peril.

Again, I admire AC. Except for his performace after the Tour and Vuelta he has been a class act. He has even decided to take the high road in the war of words between himself and LA. I think AC let his fears get the best of him during last years tour, and like the man says, I think he has learned a great deal from the experience.

 

[Señor_Contador]

Hmmm .... and the great conspiracy theorists seem to think that there was an active attempt to sabotage AC ... by switching wheels to make him lose the Tour?

I do not recall ANY LA detractors saying such a thing. No one is saying Astana wanted AC to lose the Tour. Conventional consensus now revolves around the idea that there was an active intent on the part of LA and JB to have Lance Armstrong win the 2009 edition of the TdF. If this meant AC come in 2nd, 3rd or 155th is secondary, as rule # 1 of LA's ego is the only rule that mattered (and Rule # 1 of LA's ego is "Lance must always be # 1". Whether he is the strongest or not is irrelevant).

Methinks a lot of this has to do with the amount of sponsor money LA is able to bring into the sport (which clashes directly with AC's zero compulsive socialite attitude). I mean, I can tell you that what eats LA inside is the amount of respect AC is getting from everyone on and off the bike. The kind of respect you don't buy with money... but sweat and effort.

Or by somehow not supporting him when he rode on up the road in move that were apparently uncoordinated with the rest of the team? This is the grand sabotage campaign?

You can honestly say that Astana the team made some idiotic decisions and that both, AC and LA made some egotistical moves. AC dropping AK up the Colombiére, knucklehead move. LA, HZ and JP riding away in Le Grand-Motte, knucklehead move. Et cetera.

So, to clear this up, AC makes moves because he think the team won't support him, but the team can't support him because he made the independant moves.

I don't recall Alberto saying that the team did not support him, although I could be wrong. At the same time I do not recall any Astana pulling AC up any climbs the way Roberto Heras or Rubiera or Floyd used to do with the Texan during his 7-year reign. Did you?

Furthermore, I do remember AC saying something like, after every stage, he used to go into everyone's room and thank them personally, so the team atmosphere was there. I think that AC's issue was really with The Lance Armstrong Show and the team having to work so friggin hard to haul this rich Texan's a$$ up every hill he ran out of breath on.

At some point we are all adults, and whatever you motoivation for a decision, you are still responsible for the results.

Look, we are all adults indeed and you have to be blind not to see the ugly scent of money in this whole controversy. True cycling fans like myself are well aware of the fact that had LA stayed out of this past year's TdF you would have had a wonderful TdF, devoid of any "strange" scandals, the kind that loom over everyone's heads everytime a guy with a huge moneybag shows up (you-know-who) or when someone has just tested positive.

AC went alone, and he won. Trying to turn that into a bash on someone else is pointless.

Well, that's the thing, Contador should have not have to have gone at it alone. A team is a team, and if 35% of the human resources in a team are being used and abused in order to ensure that a certain person, who obviously does not have the chops anymore, stand in the podium in Paris just because that sells more t-shirts... I'm sorry, but... no!!

 

[Anonymous]

Originally Posted by Carboncrank View Post
Funny, I don't recall anyone here criticizing Johann when he won with Alberto in 07, or when they won the giro and Vuelta in 08. Suddenly in 09 he's a poor manager, a lousy tactical, and spends his nights conspiring with snydley whiplash.

Yeah, and this time last year, no one was upset about Tiger Wood's social life. It's one thing for a manager to help the best rider on the team to a victory - it's another for him to let his best friend take over the best rider's position, and cause friction within the team, with no contract so he couldn't be held accountable. Bruyneel told a packed press conference at training camp in 2008:

"If Lance is not the best, he will become the best teammate Alberto could ever have dreamed of,"

He could have enforced that, but it sure as hell didn't happen.And it's a good thing that the top employee actually on the payroll knew better and was prepared.

Do you want to talk poor manager? Let's look back at the Giro, where his riders became Team Faded, causing great embarrassment to the team sponsors. Armstrong proclaimed that it wasn't his team, that all he knew about Kazakhstan was Borat. Bruyneel and Armstrong schemed behind the scenes to take over the team and the license. Try that stuff at your employer and see how it goes over.

Before the Tour ever started, the threat was out there for Bruyneel to be fired. Here's a quote from a July 4 Tim Maloney Universal Sports article. Unfortunately, they have a new website since then, so I can't link to the article, but I had the quote on my blog.

But Nikolaï Proskurin, the vice-president of the Kazakh cycling federation, had harsh words for Bruyneel in L'Equipe after non-payment of team fees caused the Astana team to ride without team logos on their jerseys at the Giro d'Italia.

"We were not happy with (Bruyneel's) behavior as it caused major embarassment to Kazakhstan, and we have more than enough reason to fire him. Contrary to what most people think, (Bruyneel) works for (the Kazakh cycling federation) not the other way around.”

These comments could be largely dismissed as posturing but a statement from the Kazakh President no less seem to add weight to the rumours of a Kazakh take-over at Astana.

The President of Kazakhstan was also involved, as you can see in this Cycling Weekly article by Andrew Canning posted July 3

According to L’Equipe, President Nursultan Nazarbaiev proposed re-structuring the team around Alberto Contador without Lance Armstrong and Bruyneel.

“We are going to approach Alberto Contador and propose lengthening his contract,” said Nazarbaiev.

“He will be our sole leader for the years to come, he will have every liberty to choose the riders that he wants to have at his side.

“In our mind, the team will be made up of Spanish and Kazakh riders, amongst those Alexandre Vinokourov”.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/381241/rumours-circulate-of-a-kazakh-coup-at-astana.html

That was before the Tour ever started. And the team is pretty much made up of Kazakh and Spanish riders. They didn't want Leipheimer or Kloden or Popovych or Horner.

For the rest, I'm going to paste my old blog post.

Lance and Bruyneel had hoped during the Giro that Astana would fail to meet their financial obligations and they could step up, take over the license and the parts of the team they wanted, and win Lance the Tour de France for both their greater glory. You can believe that riders devoted to Lance, like Chris Horner, would have made the team.

Lance has recently accused Alberto via twitter to be an ungrateful teammate. Here's what Lance had to say about Astana during the Giro, this from ABC News:

"I've already said all I know about Kazakhstan, Astana, Borat. I don't know anything more," Armstrong said when last asked about the issue. "It's not my team, it's not my sponsor. I've got nothing to say about it."

Armstrong clearly meant to use the Astana team and staff for the Tour and then move on. The Vinokourov return was meant to be the symbolic final straw that got Bruyneel fired, but once he saw those articles just prior to the start of the Tour, he would have known he was a lame duck, yet at the same time had unchallenged power to play favorites with Lance and try to win Lance the race, gaining more acclaim for themselves and an even brighter future.

Alberto Contador knew all of this, and lived with the build-up for ten months. He knew he could win the Tour again. His only true ally was his brother, who the earlier article suggests was often unable to stay in the same Tour hotel because Armstrong had people in available rooms. I'm willing to believe that bit after reading about the rest day transfer flight on a plane supplied by the Tour. Armstrong had the front row of the plane reserved for himself, and he sat there with Bruyneel. Contador sat with Kloden in row eighteen. Alberto won the spot as team leader in the opening day in Monaco. Lance was looked upon as a veteran genius when he went with Team Columbia in a crosswind, waving Zubeldia and Popovich to help set pace at the font of the group, with Armstrong gaining 41 seconds on Alberto and leapfrogging him in the standings. That was a pretty clear act of war, unless you listened to Versus announcers.

Alberto attacked in the mountains to reclaim his position, but instead of being called a hero, Bruyneel, Armstrong and others tried to make him sound like a loose cannon who wouldn't follow orders. Later in the race, Armstrong told the world that he couldn't beat Alberto and would devote himself to working for him. The fans gave him credit fir that, but a bit later he changed his mind when talking to his home town press, saying that a lot of things would have to go his way to win. That's when Alberto had to start looking for rides, and I honestly feared that someone would put Castor oil in his oatmeal to take him out of the race.

In my opinion, it was cool when the Discovery Channel decided to quit sponsoring cycling, and Johan took the staff along to Team Astana to keep them working and together. I think it's awful that Armstrong, and apparently Bruyneel, are about to raid those same people en masse from an ongoing team. The hostile takeover didn't work, so let the raiding and plundering begin. If Team Astana folds, let there be no doubt: it was the management of Johan Bruyneel and his welcome of Lance Armstrong to the team that brought about the demise. And God help me, I supported the first first five months of the comeback. Mea culpa. I was wrong.

Let's finish this off with an exchange of tweets:
This from terrywawest to johan bruyneel"

This ones for Alberto, it is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt!

the response from johanbruyneel to terrywawest:

I will borrow this one from you if you don't mind

and johanbruyneel to the world:

Sometimes it is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt!

For the record, it's an Abraham Lincoln quote. Yes, the President who saw a nation divided, with brother fighting brother, and brought them together again. Someone should probably have mentioned that instead of seemingly taking credit for it. And it's really ironic coming from Bruyneel right now.

“Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.”

 

[Carboncrank]

I do not recall ANY LA detractors saying such a thing. No one is saying Astana wanted AC to lose the Tour. Conventional consensus now revolves around the idea that there was an active intent on the part of LA and JB to have Lance Armstrong win the 2009 edition of the TdF. If this meant AC come in 2nd, 3rd or 155th is secondary, as rule # 1 of LA's ego is the only rule that mattered (and Rule # 1 of LA's ego is "Lance must always be # 1". Whether he is the strongest or not is irrelevant).

The only reason you need to think something like that is that you HATE lance Armstrong, and through him JB.
For a DS to arrainge such a thing against the best rider in the world and not have it backfire would require unimaginable guineus. JB is good, but not that good.
You keep lumping people like me into "fan boy" status no matter how many time we say Alberto is the best racer in the world. I've said it over and over again. He beat Lance far and square. It may have been more interesting if he hadn't broke his collarbone but likely not.
But Lance losing fair and square is not enough for you guys. You're not happy unless you can stay busy with some new evil Lance theory.

]Methinks a lot of this has to do with the amount of sponsor money LA is able to bring into the sport (which clashes directly with AC's zero compulsive socialite attitude). I mean, I can tell you that what eats LA inside is the amount of respect AC is getting from everyone on and off the bike. The kind of respect you don't buy with money... but sweat and effort.

So, the guys he sweated and suffered with last year. Where are they? Wouldn't you think that if it was about respect, sweat and loyalty at least one of them would have stayed behind?

You can honestly say that Astana the team made some idiotic decisions and that both, AC and LA made some egotistical moves. AC dropping AK up the Colombiére, knucklehead move. LA, HZ and JP riding away in Le Grand-Motte, knucklehead move. Et cetera.

We disagree on La Grand-Motte. My take is that Lance's experience put him in a position where he didn't get caught out by a sharp turn into a big wind. I'd be willing to bet AC doesn't make that mistake again.
One thing I'm absolutely certain of. If Contador catches that shift and Lance doesn't, you're singing a completely different tune.

I don't recall Alberto saying that the team did not support him, although I could be wrong. At the same time I do not recall any Astana pulling AC up any climbs the way Roberto Heras or Rubiera or Floyd used to do with the Texan during his 7-year reign. Did you?

He didn't say it. Hasn't said it. Because it would be untrue.
Off the top of my head? Stage 7. The Astana train was in control at the front of the yellow jersey group when Alberto launched from the back of the line. Lance did NOT conterattack, but instead got onto Schleck's wheel when he countered, which is what a team rider does. There are other examples as well. Why else would he, as you claim, go around thanking guys?

Look, we are all adults indeed and you have to be blind not to see the ugly scent of money in this whole controversy. True cycling fans like myself are well aware of the fact that had LA stayed out of this past year's TdF you would have had a wonderful TdF, devoid of any "strange" scandals, the kind that loom over everyone's heads everytime a guy with a huge moneybag shows up (you-know-who) or when someone has just tested positive.

True cycling fans like yourself? I see smug arrogance and the rotting stench of elitism.

 

[Señor_Contador]

Poncho Villa?

It's Pancho Villa.

So you are saying that a man you kidnapped, murdered, and raped his way through Northern Mexico is 'widely' respected throughout Mexico? So whether we like or dislike a guy has nothing to do with his actions and everything to do with our International and ethnic perspective?

I'm not saying it, I am informing you. And Pancho not only did that in Northern Mexico, he carried out incursion into US territory. And yes, he is considered a national hero in Mexico (google it if you do not believe me).

The same way we consider the guys who dropped two atomic bombs on civilian targets "heroes". Now, go ask the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki what they think of the people who flew the Enola Gay and the Bockscar and see what they think of our "heroes".

And by this I am not saying that Pancho Villa was good or bad, I am merely trying to show you that there are different ways of looking at the same issue. I mean, you could argue that he deserves no credit or recognition because he raped and slaughtered many human beings, but by the same token why do we treat the American military who carried out the massacre (not because of disease) of hundreds of thousands of Native Americans as heroes? Now we're entering the realm of hypocrisy. In any case, that's life per se. Some people think you're a nice person and others think you're the biggest a-hole.

You then turn to make the same hacked over accusations that amount to a grand conspiracy against AC in this years Tour, and then claim "he smoked him on the bike" (where apparently it matters - but thanks for the excuses anyway!)

I'm not accusing anybody of anything. It is a well-known fact that AC beat LA in the 2009 edition of the TdF. And yes, AC smoked LA. The later conceded so after Verbier.

The idea that AC, far stronger than Lance in mountains, "couldn't get the yellow jersey if Lance got it in the TTT," is rediculous (much less that we would carpet bomb France in the event that Lance lost Tour!) As soon as any other team sends a guy up the road and Lance cannot go with him up the road, and he could not - away goes AC.

Like I said, and I stand by it, had LA gotten the maillot jaune after the TTT I do not see any conceivable way for AC to get it back. Had AC not played the role of perfect teammate I can only imagine the damage The Lance Armstrong Show would've inflicted to his image. This is just MY humble opinion. If you find it ridiculous or not, I do not give a hoot. So if future responses go the same route, word of advice: save your spit.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe Lance, having won the Tour seven times, might have an idea or two about tactics in a cycling race? You think possibly that JB who won four Grand Tours with AC, and had to put up with similar accusations regarding Levi in the Vuelta, might be able to manage egos AND have a plan for victory? You think they might have had a coordinated plan, particularly after the first stage, that would maximize the benefits of the race and keep AC on top?

I don't know what you're trying to get to. You write a lot and say very little. Are you Carboncrank??

The way I see it is that if you look at the before and after (the TdF) you would think AC and LA and JB had gotten into a fist fight sometime during the 3 weeks. I mean, if you looked at the team celebration in Paris you would've thought Astana had come in last. That is no way to celebrate the fact that one of your guys just won you the friggin TdF! I mean, Lance not looking him in the eye and only shaking hands... JB and LL talking all that smack during and after the TdF (not to mention Lance's bítches, Sherwin and Liggett).

It all adds up. The disconfort was there prior to the TdF. I mean, the way they publicized LA's return, the prompt criticism of AC at Paris-Nice 2009, the team putting time on AC at Le Grand-Motte, no-paygate, et cetera. I don't know about you, but if I connect the dots I see a carefully laid out plan (by LA and JB) out of Astana into Radio Shack. A plan Alberto was not a victim of, but... let's just call it "collateral damage".

Kinda hard to coordinate a plan when the one of the key players just does his own thing though isn't it?

That's what EVERY TdF winner does: You've got the strength when everyone's weak? You attack! That's what LA UNQUESTIONABLY did during his 7-year reign and that's what Alberto did this past year and will do in subsequent years. No surprise. I mean, it sounds like kinda of an egotistical move now because The Armstrong Show propagandised the "no one is above The Plan" mantra to death. All the while all his success was entirely built around a team that was solely dedicated to pacing him to the last 5 kilometers of a hard climb, while preventing serious attacks (during the competition and before, using nice and not so nice tactics). I mean, talk about doing your "own thing"?? I mean, talk about 9 guys doing YOUR own thing!!

It is clear that AC did not trust his team, whether that is entirely his fault is debateable

NOT TRUE. AC did not trust LL, LA and the JB trio. He suspected he was being set up. But he did trust the rest of (about 95% of) the team. Unless you only considered Lance, Johan and Levy the only ones in Astana of course.

Did AC ever sit down with JB, like an adult with some insecurities, and tell him point blank that he didn't think the team was going to support him?

Have you ever heard the saying "actions speak louder than words"? Just to give you an equally-measured dose of bullshít, let me ask you something, let's just say you ride for a team doing the TdF and you are one of the 3 supposed leaders and you just found out your DS, who's criticized you to death prior to the TdF, and has swore to equal treatment, is telling 3 of the riders, one of which "wants your lunch", to "push, push, push" just as you are about to complete the 1 week of the Tour... what would you have thought? I mean, the "push, push, push" sounds to me like Johan was giving Lance an advantage. Let's not forget Johan himself insinuated that the true leader of the team would have been dictated by who the strongest is. If this was indeed true, and the Belgian meant what he said... was the "push, push, push" a clear and distinct sign of TACTICAL ADVANTAGE toward LA? Tell me the truth!

Or did he just nurse his fears in private and then act out on the road to silence even the possibility of his fears being realized?

No, like I said, he suspected he was being set up and acted accordingly.

And there were damages to the team effort because of AC's actions. Astana had several podium contenders, and there appeared that there was a good shot at getting a 1-2-3 team finish. Kinda hard to do that when #1 rides up the road with the biggest threats in the race against his own team (and lets them win the stage too boot!)

You want to know what is really, really funny in a sad way? The fact that during Lance's 7-year reign the though of him subordinating the # 1 spot for a 1-2-3 finish was never, ever, ever, ever, like NEVER ever even conceived or contemplated. Don't get me wrong, if lady luck would have it I'm sure the Texan would've not rejected the idea, but his ego would've never accepted riding for someone else's # 2 or 3, even if it involved people in his own team. Lance allowed everyone else in his team to get stage wins and that was that. All of a sudden Alberto is asked to do exactly that which Lance NEVER, ever did and you expect it to be a fair thing to do? Sucka please!

People like to bash LA for not having to deal with things that AC did in this years tour. True. But how many times did LA ride up the rode against his own team?

Well, if you have a team whose only job is to ride for you... it's hard to argue why you haven't ridden against them dontcha think?. It's like arguing about the moisture content in water.

In 2001 when he stopped to get his team mates back into the stream of the TTT he was clearly acting on his own? [...]

Are you on crack?! The only reason Armstrong waited was because of Vandevelde. Had it been Heras the only one to have fallen he would've been left behind. Period. At least that's what I would've done.

Now, eight of those riders who had a shot at a 1-2-3 finish in the Tour, who delivered AC to the top step of the podium,[...]

Oh my God! You guys actually think Lance is coming back to win this? It is the majority of DS' opinions enough proof that you guys are going to be disappointed?

Honestly, how much Lance bashing analysis is just the poncho villa equivalent?

No one here is analyzing Lance. I, for one, could care less about him. We are analyzing his actions, which are not very nice.

Lance can't win because I like AC? Well, I will tell you that AC and AS will be watching him next year, and they will probably take LA a little more seriously than simply stating, "there is no way he can beat us! - Especially if we ride up the road together again!" (Sorry, I couldn't resist the last bit).

Alberto has already said that his # 1 rival is Andy. Andy has publicly stated that his # 1 rival is Alberto. You do the math.

LA was able to come out of retirement, break his collar bone[...]

Yes, and I agree, I think he did a darn good job this past year for an old fart (as he himself said). Now, do I agree with the way it had to be done? Nope. I think he dragged Alberto's face through the mud way too much. I've lost some respect, and fanfare, for him since then.

Again, I admire AC[...]

Sure, he has learned what NOT to do.

 

[Carboncrank]

Yeah, and this time last year, no one was upset about Tiger Wood's social life. It's one thing for a manager to help the best rider on the team to a victory - it's another for him to let his best friend take over the best rider's position, and cause friction within the team, with no contract so he couldn't be held accountable. Bruyneel told a packed press conference at training camp in 2008:

Please make it clear who you are quoting. The first quote in your post is the only one that is mine. You hacked up your post making it near impossible to respond to.

Do you want to talk poor manager? Let's look back at the Giro, where his riders became Team Faded, causing great embarrassment to the team sponsors. Armstrong proclaimed that it wasn't his team, that all he knew about Kazakhstan was Borat. Bruyneel and Armstrong schemed behind the scenes to take over the team and the license. Try that stuff at your employer and see how it goes over.

Team faded was a brilliant move, and one that had the riders at heart. Nothing the Kazakh President said is anything other than self interest. The sponsors where clearly in violation of their contract with Johann an UCI rules. By the end of this not even Contador wanted to stay and his contract is conditional as hell.
The whole reason UCI has escrow rules is to assure that sponsors can't just quit paying them in the middle of a season.

The President of Kazakhstan was also involved, as you can see in this Cycling Weekly article by Andrew Canning posted July 3

Years to come eh? Want to lay odds on AC being on Astana after next year? How long is his contract?

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/381241/rumours-circulate-of-a-kazakh-coup-at-astana.html

That was before the Tour ever started. And the team is pretty much made up of Kazakh and Spanish riders. They didn't want Leipheimer or Kloden or Popovych or Horner.

For the rest, I'm going to paste my old blog post.

Lance and Bruyneel had hoped during the Giro that Astana would fail to meet their financial obligations and they could step up, take over the license and the parts of the team they wanted, and win Lance the Tour de France for both their greater glory. You can believe that riders devoted to Lance, like Chris Horner, would have made the team.

Nobody in their right mind would expect to win the Tour de France after putting a team through that kind of turmoil. It's an insane notion.

Lance has recently accused Alberto via twitter to be an ungrateful teammate. Here's what Lance had to say about Astana during the Giro, this from ABC News:

"I've already said all I know about Kazakhstan, Astana, Borat. I don't know anything more," Armstrong said when last asked about the issue. "It's not my team, it's not my sponsor. I've got nothing to say about it."

Armstrong clearly meant to use the Astana team and staff for the Tour and then move on.

He says nothing about it, and you claim to know what he meant to say and do, all this by the fact he said nothing. So, not happy with twisting things he says, you twist things he doesn't say. How rich.

Alberto Contador knew all of this, and lived with the build-up for ten months. He knew he could win the Tour again. His only true ally was his brother, who the earlier article suggests was often unable to stay in the same Tour hotel because Armstrong had people in available rooms. I'm willing to believe that bit after reading about the rest day transfer flight on a plane supplied by the Tour. Armstrong had the front row of the plane reserved for himself, and he sat there with Bruyneel. Contador sat with Kloden in row eighteen. Alberto won the spot as team leader in the opening day in Monaco.

It is really, really lame of you to be reduced to inferences about seating on an airplane. I really am laughing. You need a better hobby.

Lance was looked upon as a veteran genius when he went with Team Columbia in a crosswind, waving Zubeldia and Popovich to help set pace at the font of the group, with Armstrong gaining 41 seconds on Alberto and leapfrogging him in the standings. That was a pretty clear act of war, unless you listened to Versus announcers.

Tell me honestly, what your opinion of the situation would have been if Lance had missed that shift and Alberto had not. Simply reverse the two. Your prejudice is obvious.

In my opinion, it was cool when the Discovery Channel decided to quit sponsoring cycling, and Johan took the staff along to Team Astana to keep them working and together. I think it's awful that Armstrong, and apparently Bruyneel, are about to raid those same people en masse from an ongoing team. The hostile takeover didn't work, so let the raiding and plundering begin. If Team Astana folds, let there be no doubt: it was the management of Johan Bruyneel and his welcome of Lance Armstrong to the team that brought about the demise. And God help me, I supported the first first five months of the comeback. Mea culpa. I was wrong.

Johann didn't raid or plunder anything. All the equipment belonged to him. He owned the buses, the cars, everthing. Nobody, not even Alberto wanted to stay behind. Astana must have offered him a ton of money to stay, and the contract has provisions I've never seen before.
The backers of Astana brought this on themselves. Not even Muravyev stayed behind.
I like Alberto. I wish he'd have found a new home too. He deserves better than the likes of Vino.
And now they show up without radios.
I really hope the team doesn't make blunders that cost them the tour. That would be a shame.
But If I was a big fan, I'd be worried.

Let's finish this off with an exchange of tweets:
This from terrywawest to johan bruyneel"

This ones for Alberto, it is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt!

the response from johanbruyneel to terrywawest:

I will borrow this one from you if you don't mind

and johanbruyneel to the world:

Sometimes it is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt!

For the record, it's an Abraham Lincoln quote. Yes, the President who saw a nation divided, with brother fighting brother, and brought them together again. Someone should probably have mentioned that instead of seemingly taking credit for it. And it's really ironic coming from Bruyneel right now.

Wait... let me grab a hanky. Man, that was so.. touching...

I'm with those that attribute it to Mark Twain or Groucho... lol

 

[Carboncrank]

I do not consider Lance a hero. And neither do many people. Lookey hiah Pancho Villa is considered a villain in the US and a hero in Mexico. It really depends on whose side you're on. YOU connect the dots.



Look, I don't know what you're trying to say here... I am critizicing Lance Armstrong the cyclist, not the cancer survivor. I understand he motivates a lot of human beings and I respect that. But make no mistake, I am criticizing the guy who rides the TdF on two wheels.

You, and your ilk, are accusing Lance and Johann of subterfuge, collusion against a teammate and trying perpatrate a fraud on the sporting public.
How could we possibly think you mean anything personal about it?

The kind of things you people are accusing them of are just the kind of thing I look to sports to avoid. The kinds back biting, popularity contest, Jerry Springeress, malarkey just does not work in proffesional sports. The competition is so tough, the margins of victory so slight that wasted effort on the kinds of nonsense you propagate just make you lose.
I watch sport, especially pro sport, because I think the people I'm watching have to strip all that crap away in order to deal with tasks at hand. Most of the time that you find soap opera dramas were going on, you're hearing about the ones who lost, not the ones who won.

 

[Race Radio]

It appears somebody forgot their meds today.

 

[Digger]

It appears somebody forgot their meds today.

I know yeah, and I thought I was intense. I'm an advertisement for valium in comparison!!
What's becoming apparent to me over the past few months is that more and more Lance fans are becoming educated to reality - HOWEVER, a new generation are coming through to take their place. And this leads me to think that unless Lance goes into politics, and gets exposed in a political level, he will always always have his groupies.

CC, fact is that your boy got a tip off from George about Columbia splitting the peleton. Lance for some reason did not offer this to Alberto. Also, Lance was talking about tension between himself and AC, DURING the race. You could somewhat excuse it after, but during, no. And I hate to burst your bubble as to why all these riders followed Lance to RS - It's called a job. Astana were not financially stable last year. Loyalty to Lance - NO. Because we have seen that plenty of riders feel disenfranchised when on the same team as Lance.

 

[Carboncrank]

It appears somebody forgot their meds today.

No.. really... I know 12 year olds that have more game than you.

 

[Race Radio]

No.. really... I know 12 year olds that have more game than you.

Why does it not surprise me that you hang out with 12 year olds?

 

[Señor_Contador]

Why does it not surprise me that you hang out with 12 year olds?

Ownage at its best.

 

[Carboncrank]

exposed in a political level, he will always always have his groupies.

CC, fact is that your boy got a tip off from George about Columbia splitting the peleton. Lance for some reason did not offer this to Alberto. Also, Lance was talking about tension between himself and AC, DURING the race. You could somewhat excuse it after, but during, no. And I hate to burst your bubble as to why all these riders followed Lance to RS - It's called a job. Astana were not financially stable last year. Loyalty to Lance - NO. Because we have seen that plenty of riders feel disenfranchised when on the same team as Lance.

There is NO evidence that is true. Quite the opposite. More than one rider after the race said they knew they needed to move up before that turn. They saw the risk. I didn't take a genius.

Are you claiming that Levi, and Kloden, and Pop couldn't have got a JOB elsewhere? Sorry, can't take that notion seriously.

Look, this is supposed to be the Contador thread, but I'm just responding here.

Internet cranks love to give the impression everyone with a brain in their head hates Lance, when, in fact, he's well liked and respected by the vast majority of his fellow racers, other Directors and former teammates.

For several of the RS riders this is the 3rd time they have teamed up with Lance. Not likely that happens if he's all the internet cranks say he is.

I have noticed reading many pages of this thread that almost every single one mentions lance or Jb or both.

If you hate him so much just shut up about him.

 

[Señor_Contador]

[...]And I hate to burst your bubble as to why all these riders followed Lance to RS - It's called a job. Astana were not financially stable last year. Loyalty to Lance - NO. Because we have seen that plenty of riders feel disenfranchised when on the same team as Lance.

To corroborate the above, in a recent interview, Alberto Contador was asked "Did it hurt you that so many Astana people went with Armstrong?" To which Alberto responded with "As the winter went on, I couldn’t offer them a secure situation. I didn’t even know where I’d be riding myself."

Source.

As far as George tipping off LA... let's just say that George's overeaction to not getting the maillot jaune in the Besançon stage, somehow coming accross as though he had just been handed a major slice of betrayal pie, more than speaks for itself. He looked ****ed even the day after, and he was biting his lip big time when interviewed by The Lance Armstrong Show.

By this I'm not saying that Lance wasn't legitimately upset because George did not get the yellow jersey that day... but like I said in previous posts, actions speak louder than words, and knowing how close George and Lance were, I really find it strangely saucy that Lance wouldn't have run the idea of a comeback and subsequent new team by George before he had a chance to sign with another team.

Lance Armstrong even went as far as to say "He's already committed. Has been since before we got our funding" in Outside Magazine. The Guardian ran the story as of August 14th. Then GH, no pun intended, drops Da Bomb and signs with BMC.

 

[Carboncrank]

Ownage at its best.

Oh, I get it. You guys are **** buddies.

 

[Carboncrank]

To corroborate the above, in a recent interview, Alberto Contador was asked "Did it hurt you that so many Astana people went with Armstrong?" To which Alberto responded with "As the winter went on, I couldn’t offer them a secure situation. I didn’t even know where I’d be riding myself."

Source.

Case closed.

I would think that at leas a couple of guys would have taken a chance and tried to work things out with Astana if they were really keen to stay with "the worlds greatest rider".

Unlike most internet cranks here, I'll admit I have no proof any of those riders have any personal doubts about him, but personally it make me wonder.

Like Johann says, the road will sort things out.

 

[Race Radio]

There is NO evidence that is true. Quite the opposite. More than one rider after the race said they knew they needed to move up before that turn. They saw the risk. I didn't take a genius.

The turn is not what caused the split, Columbia putting their entire team on the front to spit the group caused the split. George told Lance they were going to do this and he did not relay the info over the radio to the rest of his teammates. When the split happened and his team leader did not make the split he put his guys on the front to make the gap as large as possible.

This classless move was only enhanced a few days later when he and Kloden chased Contador's attack until the both popped....after dragging the other key contenders closer.

It does not take genius to recognize this.

 

[Publicus]

I would think that at leas a couple of guys would have taken a chance and tried to work things out with Astana if they were really keen to stay with "the worlds greatest rider".

Unlike most internet cranks here, I'll admit I have no proof any of those riders have any personal doubts about him, but personally it make me wonder.

Like Johann says, the road will sort things out.

And you would be wrong yet again.

 

[Señor_Contador]

I guess George found out the hard way that Lance doesn't have friends, he has "assets". Once he can't use and abuse you he just throws you away.

What a lame-a$$ human being.

 

[Señor_Contador]

I would think that at leas a couple of guys would have taken a chance and tried to work things out with Astana if they were really keen to stay with "the worlds greatest rider".

Unlike most internet cranks here, I'll admit I have no proof any of those riders have any personal doubts about him, but personally it make me wonder.

Like Johann says, the road will sort things out.

Whatever dude.

Here's something for you to jack off to: