Contador 2010

[Publicus]

Exactly, knowing how on-edge you are when you're peaked for a grand tour and how big of a deal trust in your team is... I can see how Alberto's trust in JB and LA just disipated in thin air after something like that and what took place at Le Grand Motte.

I mean, it falls neatly into place when putting together the big puzzle, JB's and LA's master plan to put Lance in the # 1 spot.

The subsequent reaction by Lance saying stuff like Contador "is surrounded by yes-men", in my opinion, has bbbbuuuusssstttteeeedddd written all over it.

+100 It wasn't so much the differences in the wheels, but what the larger issue represented. Everything else seems to flow from this point: he could not trust JB (despite his declaration that AC was the team leader), not LA (though I don't think he ever did, but I think he actively distrusted him from this point), and definitely not Trek. The incidents on Stage 3 (viewed from AC's mindset) certainly didn't help to alleviate his concerns.

How this kid held it together for 3 weeks is beyond me.

 

[ScottyMuser]

the whole wheelgate issue showed that JB was NOT prioritising Conti, but rather was planning on doing anything in his power to get Lance to the top, even if it meant disadvantaging the team "leader"
Thus also the comments re: Contador when he tried to gain time on Schleck so that a crash in the TT would not have had as much of an effect, yet JB came out and instead criticised him for not helping LA/AK.
His "paranoia" was then fairly well confirmed when, as soon as Alberto had won the TDF, JB declared he had been working behind the scenes to put together another team with LA, rather than concentrating on, you know, helping the best stage rider out their make sure he wins the TDF. From that moment, I don't think anyone could argue that JB was "impartial" and really backed Contador, and Contador will be on a stronger team this year without having to deal with it.
That is unless the slug gets bored and goes on attacks ...

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Light wheels or not, Alberto put his foot so deep up Armstrong's a$$ at the Tour, he broke CarbonCrank's teeth.

 

[Carboncrank]

"To those in the know we will say that all Astana riders, except Lance Armstrong, had access to and actually used the Lightweight 240 brand, while the Texan was given the more advanced and newer version, the Lightweight 190, with ceramic bearings, approximately 15% lighter and 30% more rigid due to the way the carbon fibers were laid out (in a criss-cross pattern). Only AC's mechanic, who is not the best mechanic in the world but is one of the best, could have noticed such a small difference like that. But he did."[/I]

And the rest is history.

lightweight 240 brand? lightweight 190? I've been trying for a week to find such a "brand". Criss cross pattern? LOL Every see a carbon wheel that WASN'T a criss cross patter? Ceramic bearing are no military secret.

I've read this before. Is there any proof that what this paper, that is way up AC's backside, says is actually true?
It's been quite a while now. Carbonsports doesn't back it up. Nobody can say what wheels they are taking about. The "Spanish mechanic" still hasn't gone public. There's not corroborating evidence. No photos. No second person that is on record that this alleged "Spanish mechanic" exists or is telling the truth.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

lightweight 240 brand? lightweight 190? I've been trying for a week to find such a "brand". Criss cross pattern? LOL Every see a carbon wheel that WASN'T a criss cross patter? Ceramic bearing are no military secret.

I've read this before. Is there any proof that what this paper, that is way up AC's backside, says is actually true?
It's been quite a while now. Carbonsports doesn't back it up. Nobody can say what wheels they are taking about. The "Spanish mechanic" still hasn't gone public. There's not corroborating evidence. No photos. No second person that is on record that this alleged "Spanish mechanic" exists or is telling the truth.

It took me all of 30 seconds to find it.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/mc/cycle/7/Lightweight/Wheels_-_Road/

The 190 and 240 refer to the types of DT Swiss hubs. 190s have ceramic bearings.

 

[Race Radio]

It took me all of 30 seconds to find it.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/mc/cycle/7/Lightweight/Wheels_-_Road/

The 190 and 240 refer to the types of DT Swiss hubs. 190s have ceramic bearings.

Those are the climbing wheels, not the disc. The 190's are 30 grams less then the 240's and have ceramic bearings. The wheels also had a different carbon layup that dropped the weight a further 120 grams and made them stiffer. Carbonsports confirmed it. No surprise, we have see high end carbon frames drop over 500 grams in the last 5 years.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Those are the climbing wheels, not the disc. The 190's are 30 grams less then the 240's and have ceramic bearings. The wheels also had a different carbon layup that dropped the weight a further 120 grams and made them stiffer. Carbonsports confirmed it. No surprise, we have see high end carbon frames drop over 500 grams in the last 5 years.

The disc is right there on the page. Just click on it, click "Read more", and you'll see it's a 190 hub with ceramics.

Here's the link.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Lightweight_Rear_Tubular_Disc_DT_Wheel/5360040291/#more

 

[Carboncrank]

Those are the climbing wheels, not the disc. The 190's are 30 grams less then the 240's and have ceramic bearings. The wheels also had a different carbon layup that dropped the weight a further 120 grams and made them stiffer. Carbonsports confirmed it. No surprise, we have see high end carbon frames drop over 500 grams in the last 5 years.

Is this the wheel you think they are talking about?

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Lightweight_Rear_Tubular_Disc_DT_Wheel/5360040291/

Notice it's roughly 2400 USD, not 7000. I find no reference to a super version for sale anywhere. Do you? I'd think if there was a 7000 dollar version available they'd be eager to sell them.

I posted a photo before that may show the slightest hint that the rear wheel on Alberto's bike in the second TT might have that spoke pattern, but I can find no proof that same wheel is not on all the Astana bikes.

Carbonsports lightweight 190 hubs and ceramic bearings are not new. I find reference to them back as far as 2007

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=91189

I quote Marca; "used the Lightweight 240 brand, while the Texan was given the more advanced and newer version, the Lightweight 190."

that's pure gobblygook.

If Alberto Contador gets to the 2009 TdF and doesn't know what kind of wheels he wants it's more proof that he's a bit dim.

You've said more than once that carbonsports has somehow confirmed AC's side of the story. What is your source for that. I've asked repeatedly.

 

[Race Radio]

You've said more than once that carbonsports has somehow confirmed AC's side of the story. What is your source for that. I've asked repeatedly.

And you have been told repeatedly that they confirmed it to the Marca reporter, but as you are more interested in trolling and disruption you continue to pretend you do not know.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Is this the wheel you think they are talking about?



Carbonsports lightweight 190 hubs and ceramic bearings are not new. I find reference to them back as far as 2007

Above you said you didn't even know what Lightweight 240 and 190 meant, and now you find reference to them back to 2007?

LOL. To the ignore list you go.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Conta lovin' his new team. The riders look up to him & accept him. He might stay!

"It's only January. There's a big possibility that I will stay longer with Astana. But there are other possibilities," he said.

Nice response to Lefevere's comments.

 

[Señor_Contador]

Can someone please ban that guy carbon what-the-hell-ever?

What a waste of time.

 

[Señor_Contador]

Is this the wheel you think they are talking about?

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Lightweight_Rear_Tubular_Disc_DT_Wheel/5360040291/

Notice it's roughly 2400 USD, not 7000. I find no reference to a super version for sale anywhere. Do you? I'd think if there was a 7000 dollar version available they'd be eager to sell them.

Maybe he bought 2 or 3, who knows? No one here said that Alberto Contador spent $ 7,000.00 on one wheel. You implied so. There is a difference.

Carbonsports lightweight 190 hubs and ceramic bearings are not new. I find reference to them back as far as 2007

If this is the case, why would you say something like lightweight 240 brand? lightweight 190? I've been trying for a week to find such a "brand". Do you understand that this type of incoherence is the reason why some people here think you're full of $hit?

I quote Marca; "used the Lightweight 240 brand, while the Texan was given the more advanced and newer version, the Lightweight 190."

I don't know the specifics but... the point is not whether the L190 were around back in 2007 or not, it's that, in the Astana team, Lance Armstrong was the only one (initially) given the L190s, while everyone else was given the L240. Now, if Bruyneel is walking around telling people that eveyone in Astana gets the same material... is it not logical to think that Bruyneel (or Lance) is lying?

If Alberto Contador gets to the 2009 TdF and doesn't know what kind of wheels he wants it's more proof that he's a bit dim.

The wheels were provided by Trek. If Trek chooses not to tell AC that there are lighter versions of the material he is currently using, the that is not Alberto's fault, it's Treks. Withholding information is a passive lie. That's probably, and this is me connecting dots, why AC does not want anything to do with Trek for the 2010 season.

You've said more than once that carbonsports has somehow confirmed AC's side of the story. What is your source for that. I've asked repeatedly.

Another reason why people think you're full of $hit: Instead of asking for sources why don't you inform yourself?

In Bruyneel's own words (interview in Marca): "In the case of the wheels, Trek bought from a vendor a certain number of special wheels and one of those was for Alberto. However, someone around saw that Lance's wheels were painted in a different color (because of the logos) and told him they were better. So Albert spoke with Trek and bought another set".

 

[Carboncrank]

And you have been told repeatedly that they confirmed it to the Marca reporter, but as you are more interested in trolling and disruption you continue to pretend you do not know.

No mention of carbonsports in the Marca article.

 

[Carboncrank]

Originally Posted by Carboncrank
Is this the wheel you think they are talking about?

Carbonsports lightweight 190 hubs and ceramic bearings are not new. I find reference to them back as far as 2007/QUOTE]

Above you said you didn't even know what Lightweight 240 and 190 meant, and now you find reference to them back to 2007?

LOL. To the ignore list you go.

In the beginning of this disscussion I didn't. Neither did you.

Actually I should be more specific. Carbonsports lightweight disc wheels with 190 hubs and ceramic bearings have been around since at least 2007. Now I find as far back as 2005

 

[ravens]

This thread has this Alice in Wonderland vibe that on the one hand, is very disconcerting, and then on the other, I can't stay away.

Carbon crank, you are just mental. Every once in a while, you start to seem like you may yet become rational, then you go spinning out of control again. I thinked I already asked you on this thread to help me understand what drives your unquestioning devotion to Lance. I don't think I ever got a response.

 

[BroDeal]

Is Crazy Jack still posting? How long will it take for him find out the location of a poster and start making plans to travel?

 

[Race Radio]

No mention of carbonsports in the Marca article.

Look, we know pretending to be *** is part of your troll game but if you keep it up you will just get banned again.

http://marcawas5.recoletos.es/blogs/Controlador?opcion=9&codPost=5087

the story of the wheels is strictly true, as I have confirmed, apart from Alberto himself, other people around, and among them the commissioned firm of Lightwight.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

This thread has this Alice in Wonderland vibe that on the one hand, is very disconcerting, and then on the other, I can't stay away.

Carbon crank, you are just mental. Every once in a while, you start to seem like you may yet become rational, then you go spinning out of control again. I thinked I already asked you on this thread to help me understand what drives your unquestioning devotion to Lance. I don't think I ever got a response.

You can't actual reason with some people. You can't go into a discussion with that guy assuming he can converse at a logical level. In the end, he serves a useful purpose though. By taking absurd positions in an effort to defend Armstrong, he exposes just how far from the shores of reality one has to sail in order to believe Armstrong. Other cycling fans see that. Perhaps we shouldn't be so keen on banning him.

 

[ravens]

You can't actual reason with some people. You can't go into a discussion with that guy assuming he can converse at a logical level. In the end, he serves a useful purpose though. By taking absurd positions in an effort to defend Armstrong, he exposes just how far from the shores of reality one has to sail in order to believe Armstrong. Other cycling fans see that. Perhaps we shouldn't be so keen on banning him.

Point well made. He permits the continual fortifying the fact/assumption that armstrong is a doper by continuously forcing the argument like a geometry theorem where one must use theories, postulates, givens and corllaries to prove something.

LA provides a bottomless pit of drama with which we can project our own icons, heroes, villains, triumphs and tragedies. For me, it's a shame that fans of other sports that have such a rich history, to wit, golf and baseball, don't bother to acquaint themsleves. The stories of cycling are epic. It would be nice if the world knew more of these stories.

 

[Señor_Contador]

Look, we know pretending to be *** is part of your troll game[...]

Honestly? Methinks it has nothing to do with pretending.

The guy is obviously looking for some response. That's all.

The more I read what he says the less I understand his point of view.

Incoherence at its best.

Why hasn't he gotten banned yet?

 

[Carboncrank]

You almost managed a post without insult. We're doing better I think.

Maybe he bought 2 or 3, who knows? No one here said that Alberto Contador spent $ 7,000.00 on one wheel. You implied so. There is a difference.

You are correct. I made the leap that it was per wheel. Not knowing how many makes 7000 dollars meaningless.

If this is the case, why would you say something like lightweight 240 brand? lightweight 190? I've been trying for a week to find such a "brand". Do you understand that this type of incoherence is the reason why some people here think you're full of $hit?

They could not have literally meant lightweight 240 brand. So I had to go with what they may have meant and it took awhile to figure that out.

I don't know the specifics but... the point is not whether the L190 were around back in 2007 or not, it's that, in the Astana team, Lance Armstrong was the only one (initially) given the L190s, while everyone else was given the L240. Now, if Bruyneel is walking around telling people that eveyone in Astana gets the same material... is it not logical to think that Bruyneel (or Lance) is lying?

The Contador camp claims Lance was the only one given a fancy new Lightweight 190. Bruyneel claim the all had access to the same material, which would include the fancy schmancy new wheel.

The wheels were provided by Trek. If Trek chooses not to tell AC that there are lighter versions of the material he is currently using, the that is not Alberto's fault, it's Treks. Withholding information is a passive lie. That's probably, and this is me connecting dots, why AC does not want anything to do with Trek for the 2010 season.

I doubt AC is responsible for the switch to Specialized. That's up to the business side of things. He could then and still can get any wheels he wants. Note to those that think I'm just a fanboy. I've never read his book or books and I ride Specialized not Trek.

Carboncrank said: You've said more than once that carbonsports has somehow confirmed AC's side of the story. What is your source for that. I've asked repeatedly.

Another reason why people think you're full of $hit: Instead of asking for sources why don't you inform yourself?

In Bruyneel's own words (interview in Marca): "In the case of the wheels, Trek bought from a vendor a certain number of special wheels and one of those was for Alberto. However, someone around saw that Lance's wheels were painted in a different color (because of the logos) and told him they were better. So Albert spoke with Trek and bought another set".

That is not confirmation from Carbonsports as was claimed by RR.

Publicus is right when he says basicly in the end 150 grams or whatever wouldn't amount to a hill of bean in the race. As for PSYOPS? Even if the wheels were different, which I still don't buy, what it says about Alberto is that he thought 150 grams on a TT bike might lose him the tour. That is weakness. Strength would be to have the "Spanish mechanic" to tell Lance that he was going to kick his *** with the heavier wheel, and then go do it.

I wish some forum member in Europe or say, Susan, would just get on the frinkin' phone to Carbonsports or whoever aand get someone to go on the record. The journalism on this has been flat out lazy. Belive it or not Carbonsports actually has telephones. They have employees.

Actually I'm going to get on the phone and call Trek, and then I'm wrting Susan and we'll see if she's interested in talking to someone on the record about.

Someone else should call Carbonsports. I don't have an international calling plan. Someone that speaks the language should check out their forum.

 

[ravens]

Honestly? Methinks it has nothing to do with pretending.

The guy is obviously looking for some response. That's all.

The more I read what he says the less I understand his point of view.

Incoherence at its best.

Why hasn't he gotten banned yet?

I refuse to rule out that demand media in its search for writers does not hire some of them to spew pro-lance talking points. These folks may have almost no knowledge of the details of any of thse allegations, but yet, like me, they have bills to pay.

My only regret is my resume was rejected by demandmedia. (Yes, it really was.) That hurts when reading some of the pro-lance trolls. I can troll a lot better than that. I may not be a lance fanboy, but I am a pretty loyal employee.

 

[Publicus]

You almost managed a post without insult. We're doing better I think.



You are correct. I made the leap that it was per wheel. Not knowing how many makes 7000 dollars meaningless.



They could not have literally meant lightweight 240 brand. So I had to go with what they may have meant and it took awhile to figure that out.



The Contador camp claims Lance was the only one given a fancy new Lightweight 190. Bruyneel claim the all had access to the same material, which would include the fancy schmancy new wheel.



I doubt AC is responsible for the switch to Specialized. That's up to the business side of things. He could then and still can get any wheels he wants. Note to those that think I'm just a fanboy. I've never read his book or books and I ride Specialized not Trek.





That is not confirmation from Carbonsports as was claimed by RR.

Publicus is right when he says basicly in the end 150 grams or whatever wouldn't amount to a hill of bean in the race. As for PSYOPS? Even if the wheels were different, which I still don't buy, what it says about Alberto is that he thought 150 grams on a TT bike might lose him the tour. That is weakness. Strength would be to have the "Spanish mechanic" to tell Lance that he was going to kick his *** with the heavier wheel, and then go do it.

I wish some forum member in Europe or say, Susan, would just get on the frinkin' phone to Carbonsports or whoever aand get someone to go on the record. The journalism on this has been flat out lazy. Belive it or not Carbonsports actually has telephones. They have employees.

Actually I'm going to get on the phone and call Trek, and then I'm wrting Susan and we'll see if she's interested in talking to someone on the record about.

Someone else should call Carbonsports. I don't have an international calling plan. Someone that speaks the language should check out their forum.

I'll probably regret this, but you are glossing over the only point here: JB says that every rider had the same wheels. AC has provided proof (proof that JB and LA have not refuted) that this was not the case. Until they do, it is absolutely reasonable to conclude that both JB and LA were in fact lying.

There is no point going around this bush for the umpteenth time trying to prove that AC is lying. He's provided far more detail and maintained his version of the story (just added more of the details); whereas JB has moved off his original denial to acknowledge that AC did buy another set of wheels (which implies at least two in my eyes), though he claims they were exactly the same as the others (which is just weird that Trek would order him the exact same pair of wheels that they had already purchased on his behalf and charge him for it).

EDIT: And AC wasn't worried about losing the Tour because of the difference in wheels. He was the team leader and was told that he was getting the best equipment the team had available to it. Turns out that wasn't true. Whether you think 150 grams is material, is irrelevant. It only matters what AC wanted (and given that it was a climbing ITT (Stage 1 and Stage 18)), the fewer grams probably were meaningful to him. Suggesting this was a function of fear is just a poor attempt at baiting an irrational/personal response on a matter that it is not warranted. Put it this way, if it was so irrelevant, why would JB/LA and Trek keep it a secret? Why not order the same wheels for the entire team? This attempt at subterfuge (and it is clear that it happened, again JB confirms that AC bought his own wheels) cost JB his relationship with AC and disrupted the harmony of the team. All for 150 grams.

 

[BroDeal]

You almost managed a post without insult.

This is definitely that whackjob Jackhammer111.