Contador acquitted

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Oct 16, 2010
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Publicus said:
Why would AC need one when he had far more controls over the course of 2010 leading up to the TdF and during the TdF? Ovtcharov had no such tests to point to, so he had to do a hair test. It's part of the reason I think AC's argument is actually stronger than Ovtcharov's. He's got one negative test he can point to, AC has multiple and a bio-passport that to my limited knowledge, has shown no irregularities.

Ok, reading back your previous posts, if you're indeed arguing from a strictly legal standpoint, perhaps, you have a point.

But from a non-legal standpoint, we all know that all this testing and blood-passporting doesn't really pick out the truly rotten apples, now does it?

A hairtest, on the other hand, is difficult to argue with:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/1114006.stm
Daum had initially denied the allegations but was caught out after analysis of a hair sample suggested he had taken illegal drugs.
 
sniper said:
Ok, reading back your previous posts, if you're indeed arguing from a strictly legal standpoint, perhaps, you have a point.

But from a non-legal standpoint, we all know that all this testing and blood-passporting doesn't really pick out the truly rotten apples, now does it?

A hairtest, on the other hand, is difficult to argue with:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/1114006.stm
Daum had initially denied the allegations but was caught out after analysis of a hair sample suggested he had taken illegal drugs.

I'm not dealing with the non-legal standpoint, because that's irrelevant at this point. This is a legal matter now and as such, conjecture gets very limited play. But even if you give those matters credence here in the forum, neither WADA nor UCI are in the position to argue that their own testing is ineffective. They certainly can say that a number of his tests didn't screen for clen, but that's a different matter than arguing that the tests themselves are unreliable. My point is that I think that the UCI and WADA are going to find themselves rather boxed in here legally unless they produce some new evidence or otherwise factually distinguish AC's case. I really would like to get an English translation of all of the documents involved in this case (UCI, AC and RFEC).

As for the footballer, I'm not very familiar with the testing around that support, but I would gather that it is no where near as extensive as cycling (and certainly not compared to someone like Contador), nor do they have a bio-passport.
 
Feb 14, 2010
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La Gazzetta dello Sport has posted an English version of their Contador interview.
http://english.gazzetta.it/More_spo...wand-don-t-eat-meat-anymore-80335853373.shtml
Exams, lawyers, courts... How much has this whole affair cost you so far?

I haven't worked it out but an awful lot. A bucket-load of money. I've never asked for tests to be tweaked, though, to make them look favourable to me. I've only asked for the scientific truth.”

It's a different kind of justice though, isn't it? Not many people could afford to pay for the laywers and scientists that you have.

“You're right. It is a justice that not many people could afford. But I hope my battle can also help those with less means than myself.”

Tom Boonen, who has tested positive for cocaine three times outside of races but never been banned, said: 'If other people had been in Contador's shoes they would have already been punished.' What do you think about that?


“He's not seeing things properly. He should realise that thanks to my work, my sacrifice and my money, unfair rulings will be changed. And maybe one day he will benefit from that himself. Because if things aren't changed, I bet what happened to me will happen to others too.”

Andy Schleck said that you played to the cameras on Tourmalet.


“He's wrong.”
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Publicus said:
Reminds me of almost every debate I've ever seen on American news programs. Comforting to know that it's not just an American phenomenon.

Exactly, compared to the States, Spain's standards aren't all that low.

Though I still have to see Spain go after its national sports heroes, American style.
 
Dec 30, 2010
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Guardia Civil have done their job.

hrotha said:
Really? What was Galgo all about again?


The Guardia Civil have done a GREAT job (Puerto, Galgo). The trouble is the Spanish courts, national sporting organizations, and politicians have done everything they can to protect the "national heroes". The public tends to support their "heroes" as well, even if they get caught.

If you are a low level athlete, you may get thrown under the bus, but the elite level athletes have all of the support from most of the institutions in Spanish society.


Why is Fuentes still practicing "sports medicine" ?

Where is the Fuentes list five years later ?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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hrotha said:
Really? What was Galgo all about again?

You seem to have a point. However, what consequences is Galgo really gonna have? I haven't seen anybody being convicted yet. And that lady, what's her name, Martha Rodriguez(?), is still walking free denying everything, and, nota bene, still working as a deputy of that Atheltics association where she used to work, am I right? The lady was caught running a doping network, but wasn't fired!!

Anyway, if Galgo is gonna bring cheaters down, then I'm still in the dark about how Galgo fits in with AC's politicized acquittal, or with Spain's Operation Cover-up in 2006.

There seem to be different powers at work in Spain.

EDIT: In line with Andynonimous, indeed, the division seems to be that between Guardia Civil (the good guys, imo) and the rest of Spain (collectively wearing blinders).
p.s. with exceptions such as you, hrotha, needless to say.
 
It's Marta Domínguez. The case is not closed yet, and I'm not saying Spain goes seriously after their stars, that'd be ridiculous, but just like there are cases in the US where that happens, the same can be said about Spain. Marta Domínguez is a pretty huge deal around here, she's not just another athlete.

I'm not particularly optimistic about anything coming out of Galgo*, to be honest, but it's too early to tell.

edit: *in fact right now I'd bet nothing serious will come out of it.
 
Publicus said:
Just curious, how do you feel about the Ovtcharov case? Are you equally as dubious about his argument and why? And just to lay my cards on the table, I see AC's case and the handling by RFEC, from a legal theory, to be essentially the same as Ovtcharov's, so I'm trying to understand how folks who are critical of the legal theory advanced in AC's case, find it persuasive in Ovtcharov's case.

You've already received quite a bit of feedback on this question, pointing out some of the differences in the two cases. My opinion, FWIW, is that he does have a better case than Bert, which is not to say that he definitely did not dope. I have felt all along that the extremely low probability of ingesting CB-contaminated meat in the West is the biggest obstacle Bert faces, and since Ovtcharov consumed meat in China, he may dodge that bullet.

I say may, because I don't think anyone knows what the prevalence of tainted meat is in China. There have been some suggestive stories and apparently a small study, but I wouldn't draw any solid conclusions from them. But at least it MAY turn out that eating contaminated meat is common in China, whereas all the evidence says it isn't in Europe. IIRC, several of O's teammates, who ate the same meat, also tested positive, which provides further support for the claim. Bert's case would have been helped considerably if his teammates who he said ate the same meat had also been tested, but as we know, they weren't.

The hair test is another point in O's favor, though not IMO compelling evidence against doping (it tests for chronic use of CB in the past, so is more of a "character" reference, it can't address the possibility of a one-time usage of the drug, even though it seems to have little value taken in that manner). I posted a link here last week to a study finding that CB could be detected at least 6 months after ingestion in hair, and given this was more than a decade ago, and sensitivity of detection is greater now, probably that time frame could be extended. For me, the fact that Bert would not even submit to a hair test is telling. What does he have to lose?

You note that Bert was tested far more in the period preceding his positive. I agree that is a point in his favor, but we know that passport tests can be beaten, that they are not even close to a guarantee that transfusion will be spotted, even if they are carried out close in time to when the transfusion took place. For at least a limited time frame, therefore, the hair test is probably a superior indicator. If a CB positive is to result from transfusion, the athlete would probably have to take a reasonably large dose of the drug regularly over a period of time, and therefore be vulnerable to a positive hair test. So for Bert, for whom microdosing seems to be ruled out, the hair test is a critical piece of evidence--actually more so than for O.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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hrotha said:
It's Marta Domínguez. The case is not closed yet, and I'm not saying Spain goes seriously after their stars, that'd be ridiculous, but just like there are cases in the US where that happens, the same can be said about Spain. Marta Domínguez is a pretty huge deal around here, she's not just another athlete.

I'm not particularly optimistic about anything coming out of Galgo*, to be honest, but it's too early to tell.

edit: *in fact right now I'd bet nothing serious will come out of it.

tanx.

The problem is that all the good that Spain is doing in the fight against doping is overshadowed by the way they deal with AC.
Of course you're right to stress that we (or I) should be more nuanced when evaluating Spain's anti-doping policies.
If you look at how the press abroad reviews AC's acquittal, it shows you how damaging the AC case is being to Spain's reputation in doping matters. And that's a pitty, since indeed, other quite positive developments and signals are overlooked.
 
does anyone know what controls contador was subjected to between the end of the dauphine and the beginning of the TdF? if so, what type, ie blood/passport/urine and exactly when? it's a BIG piece of this puzzle and i can't find it anywhere. was he subjected to no controls whatsover during that time period?!?!?!?!

i know USADA publishes some details to their athlete test history page but i can't find a similar feature thru the REFC. do they view this info as crossing a privacy of information boundary or am i not looking in the right places? is there a chance these details have come to light through these lengthy reports i've been too busy to translate yet?
 
Andynonomous said:
The Guardia Civil have done a GREAT job (Puerto, Galgo). The trouble is the Spanish courts, national sporting organizations, and politicians have done everything they can to protect the "national heroes". The public tends to support their "heroes" as well, even if they get caught.

If you are a low level athlete, you may get thrown under the bus, but the elite level athletes have all of the support from most of the institutions in Spanish society.


Why is Fuentes still practicing "sports medicine" ?

Where is the Fuentes list five years later ?

Exactly. Now Contador is imploring the UCI and WADA to believe:

“I would just like that they read the whole dossier without preconceptions and without yielding to external pressures,” Contador told Gazzetta dello Sport. “Between the biological passport and anti-doping controls they have hundreds of pieces of data collected from years of my career. I believe in the system and they too should show that they believe in it.”

Alberto: We believe the Puerto evidence and the likely DNA contained therein should be part of this plea. Otherwise you have zero credibility.
 
lean said:
does anyone know what controls contador was subjected to between the end of the dauphine and the beginning of the TdF? if so, what type, ie blood/passport/urine and exactly when? it's a BIG piece of this puzzle and i can't find it anywhere. was he subjected to no controls whatsover during that time period?!?!?!?!

i know USADA publishes some details to their athlete test history page but i can't find a similar feature thru the REFC. do they view this info as crossing a privacy of information boundary or am i not looking in the right places? is there a chance these details have come to light through these lengthy reports i've been too busy to translate yet?
I have not seen anything remotely close to his Bio numbers anywhere for Contador. They are really keeping tight with the complicity of the UCI.
 
Merckx index said:
You've already received quite a bit of feedback on this question, pointing out some of the differences in the two cases. My opinion, FWIW, is that he does have a better case than Bert, ....

I say may, because I don't think anyone knows what the prevalence of tainted meat is in China. ....

The hair test is another point in O's favor, .... For me, the fact that Bert would not even submit to a hair test is telling. What does he have to lose?

.... If a CB positive is to result from transfusion, the athlete would probably have to take a reasonably large dose of the drug regularly over a period of time, and therefore be vulnerable to a positive hair test. So for Bert, for whom microdosing seems to be ruled out, the hair test is a critical piece of evidence--actually more so than for O.
+1.

Could not have said it better.

This has been discussed several times in this thread.:confused:
 
lean said:
does anyone know what controls contador was subjected to between the end of the dauphine and the beginning of the TdF? if so, what type, ie blood/passport/urine and exactly when? it's a BIG piece of this puzzle and i can't find it anywhere. was he subjected to no controls whatsover during that time period?!?!?!?!

i know USADA publishes some details to their athlete test history page but i can't find a similar feature thru the REFC. do they view this info as crossing a privacy of information boundary or am i not looking in the right places? is there a chance these details have come to light through these lengthy reports i've been too busy to translate yet?

This seems to be all that RFEC says in its final report:

4.1.2 Report by Dr. Douwe de Boer, dated October 14, 2010 (document
number 4 of those provided by the defendant). This report examines the so-called biological passport of the athlete and concludes as follows, "The Biological Passport Hematology of Alberto Contador exhibited, other than normal biological variation, some interesting variants for which there are several explanations, but found no evidence of self blood transfusions."

4.1.3 Expert opinion issued by Professor Don Giuseppe Banfi regarding the
biological passport and hematological data of Alberto Contador during the 2009-2010 season - November 10, 2010 (Document No. 5). This expert came to the following conclusions: "The evaluation and interpretation of the hematologic profile of the athlete Alberto Contador during the 2009-2010 season suggest that any changes that occurred in hematological values were physiological and typical of professional cyclists throughout the racing season. There are no signs of stimulation of blood or bone marrow manipulation. (N.B.: In the google translation, the word "no" was missing from that final sentence (!), though it's clear from the Spanish--"no se observan indicios"--and simply from context that it belongs there.

I understand that in addition to the RFEC decision there are two other documents of about the same length available, 1) the initial "proposal" for a one year ban, and 2) a document summarizing what Bert submitted to RFEC following the ban but prior to the final decision. I haven't been able to find either, though, and would be particularly interested in seeing the second one. Anyone have links to these?

How big a piece of the puzzle these controls turn out to be depends on CAS. They could argue (as I would) that while a clean record in the past is supportive, it can't substitute for proof of eating contaminated meat. And don't forget that if he did transfuse, we don't know when he withdrew the blood that he used later. After the DL is certainly a prime candidate, but it could have occurred much earlier in the season, or in the off-season.
 
Jan 3, 2011
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Benotti69 said:
I have not read anyone saying they do not trust CAS.

Posters have been discussing how and why RFEC decided not to sanction Contador based solely on his evidence that allegedly he ate a steak with Clen traces still in it?

No one here that i am aware of has seen an official English translation of Contador's 'evidence', of which there is none because he ate it, but his argument why he cannot be banned.

I think most poster's are looking forward to reading RFEC's explanation for not banning Contador and then seeing CAS give him 2 years.;)

what I have seen in this thread (and in the other poll thread) is ppl stating that they wont "accept" any acquaintance, even if it ís CAs ending up with that decision. I hope it will end at CAS. I dont hope for a specific outcome, I just trust CAS will make the right call. And I will accept the verdict either way it goes.
 
Merckx index said:
How big a piece of the puzzle these controls turn out to be depends on CAS. They could argue (as I would) that while a clean record in the past is supportive, it can't substitute for proof of eating contaminated meat. And don't forget that if he did transfuse, we don't know when he withdrew the blood that he used later. After the DL is certainly a prime candidate, but it could have occurred much earlier in the season, or in the off-season.

thanks for your help. i honestly don't think the passport info is of much use here, passport tests are probably just too infrequent to be useful. what i was really trying to get at is whether or not he passed any additional urine tests for clenbuterol anywhere between the dauphine and the TdF. that could essentially clear him of using a whole blood transfusion during the tour. the claims for having eliminated the possibility of transfusion seem to be pulled out of thin air. the timeline would be a week or two to use/benefit from clenbuterol and then approximately an additional week for the drug to clear his system before beginning the tour. he could probably lose a kilo or two in that time. the windows are relatively tight in my opinion but certainly possible without any testing during that time.

i actually agree with something else you said and have been hesitant to post it. by my rough calculations contador's urine concentration implies that he banked blood while using plenty of clenbuterol. in other words, he or his medical staff believed they could use clenbuterol with impunity because blood plasma concentrations of clenbuterol are very low, much lower than those you'll find in urine so a transfusion results in a very very small "dose". because of certain properties, it becomes quite clear why clenbuterol is the drug of choice when attempting to simultaneously lose weight and perform autologous transfusions.

for reasons i don't have time to explain, i don't think we're looking at a transfusion of frozen cells. maybe i'll come back and explain if i can steal time away from my employer.
 
May 26, 2010
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Merckx index said:
You've already received quite a bit of feedback on this question, pointing out some of the differences in the two cases. My opinion, FWIW, is that he does have a better case than Bert, ....

I say may, because I don't think anyone knows what the prevalence of tainted meat is in China. ....

The hair test is another point in O's favor, .... For me, the fact that Bert would not even submit to a hair test is telling. What does he have to lose?

.... If a CB positive is to result from transfusion, the athlete would probably have to take a reasonably large dose of the drug regularly over a period of time, and therefore be vulnerable to a positive hair test. So for Bert, for whom microdosing seems to be ruled out, the hair test is a critical piece of evidence--actually more so than for O.

Escarabajo said:
+1.

Could not have said it better.

This has been discussed several times in this thread.:confused:

The idea that an athlete would not submit themselves to a test to help clear their name screams cheater/doper.

David Walsh in a radio interview mentioned how in England the police called for men of certain age to come in and give a sample of their DNA to rule themselves out of suspicion in a murder case they were investigating. 5000 men turned up. Now if members of the general public don't have a problem submitting themselves to a test to ensure they are innocent why would an athlete?

That athletes don't want more testing tells us how much doping is still on going amongst the peloton.
 
Benotti69 said:
The idea that an athlete would not submit themselves to a test to help clear their name screams cheater/doper.

David Walsh in a radio interview mentioned how in England the police called for men of certain age to come in and give a sample of their DNA to rule themselves out of suspicion in a murder case they were investigating. 5000 men turned up. Now if members of the general public don't have a problem submitting themselves to a test to ensure they are innocent why would an athlete?

That athletes don't want more testing tells us how much doping is still on going amongst the peloton.

I bet the guy who did the murder didn't show.;)
 
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