Contador acquitted

[Cobblestones]

I find it odd that so many people dislike Contador ...

The sad thing is that I actually enjoy(ed) Contador racing. I much enjoyed his duels with the chicken in the 2007 TdF. I liked how he held up in the 2009 TdF. I liked the battle between Schlecklet and Contador in last year's TdF, and I shudder at the thought of Schlecklet riding cocooned in a Frank/Spartacus sandwich to victory without any serious challenger in this year's TdF.

But here's a word of wisdom from a cycling fan of many many years: don't get too attached to any single rider. They all go down in flames sooner or later. At some point, your attachment will cloud your judgement. I still enjoy the racing, but I have detached myself from any single rider. No love, no hate, not even for Armstrong (You don't believe it? Well then check all the Armstrong threads for what I've posted in them). It's like the 'zen of cycling'. You should try it, too, sometimes.

 

[rhubroma]

... No love, no hate, not even for Armstrong (You don't believe it? Well then check all the Armstrong threads for what I've posted in them). It's like the 'zen of cycling'. You should try it, too, sometimes.

So now you're also the resident shrink?

 

[python]

..snip

you have deservedly received a lot of units (+1s). i grant you a well written, thoughtful post, as usual. i have come to expect that from you. but you also have to realize the quoted post shows your unfamiliarity with the wider aspects of the case. i cant and wont speculate why. but while generally sharing your sentiment that contador doped, i tried to stay abreast with anything verified/factual from both sides. to the points…

I would contest your assertion that it is impossible to show when that happens

theoretically agreed .. . in practice ? very difficult. particularly if you’re dealing with a shrewd cheating farmer who wont sit on his hands waiting to be arrested. if it was as easy as you try to show, we would not have the first ever (botcharov), clen acquittal (out of about 70-80 cases each year for decades on) just weeks ago. read on… .

For starters, it's never just one cattle which is contaminated, usually these kinds of manipulation are done to a herd at once, so there's usually more evidence than just one single steak. Second, there's always parts of the cattle which won't be consumed at once. Parts of the cattle will find their way to a lot of other products and those pieces might be available for testing. Third, there's the hair test of the athlete. And I could go on with plenty of other things which could be done if the will is there. My understanding is that none of that was ever even attempted. It was portrayed from the beginning that it's virtually impossible to show accidental ingestion of clen. This is not true. It's a smokescreen set up for the benefit of one person.

good thinking but irrelevant (except the hair test which is a different discussion).

Look at the calendar. most continue to ignore it (wilfully or not) though this was mentioned many times.

the meat was purchased on 20 july. officially, contador was confirmed positive on 8 september. that’s two and a half months later.

what cheating farmer wont sweep all the traces by then ? answer: only an incredibly stupid one.

and your scenario does not even start addressing the other potential contaminated source being the butcher shop (where meat's turn-over is even faster) which contador is actually hinting at.

 

[hrotha]

python, that's assuming the farmer only used clen once. Presumably whatever he was doing in July he kept doing in late August and early September, so a diligent and quick investigation would have got him. The positive wasn't made public until early October - what could the farmer have done about it?

 

[Dimtick]

you have deservedly received a lot of units (+1s). i grant you a well written, thoughtful post, as usual. i have come to expect that from you. but you also have to realize the quoted post shows your unfamiliarity with the wider aspects of the case. i cant and wont speculate why. but while generally sharing your sentiment that contador doped, i tried to stay abreast with anything verified/factual from both sides. to the points…


theoretically agreed .. . in practice ? very difficult. particularly if you’re dealing with a shrewd cheating farmer who wont sit on his hands waiting to be arrested. if it was as easy as you try to show, we would not have the first ever (botcharov), clen acquittal (out of about 70-80 cases each year for decades on) just weeks ago. read on… .

good thinking but irrelevant (except the hair test which is a different discussion).


Look at the calendar. most continue to ignore it (wilfully or not) though this was mentioned many times.

the meat was purchased on 20 july. officially, contador was confirmed positive on 8 september. that’s two and a half months later.

what cheating farmer wont sweep all the traces by then ? answer: only an incredibly stupid one.

and your scenario does not even start addressing the other potential contaminated source being the butcher shop (where meat's turn-over is even faster) which contador is actually hinting at.

my understanding is that only the steaks are tested, not the living cows. i think the harsh truth is that cattle farmers have simply learned to wait long enough for the Clen to be out of the cows system before butchering. this also gives enough time for the cow to get the full benifits of the injection.

 

[scribe]

3 times in one day!

Truth be told. You'll never catch me claiming Armstrong was clean.....

 

[Descender]

A key point of the resolution is the comparison the RFEC makes with the case of the German table tennis player Otcharov, who tested positive for 75 picograms of clenbuterol in a control right after returning from a tournament in China. The German federation acquitted him and the WADA did not appeal to the CAS.

The point the RFEC makes is: how can someone be found not guilty of negligence after testing positive for clenbuterol in a country where its use in cattle is widespread, while someone who orders meat in the EU, where its use is prohibited since 1996, is asked to analyse everything they eat or else be found guilty of negligence?

 

[roundabout]

In the same vein (he he) Contador's arguments are based on the event that his particular piece of meat was not tested and the testing in the Basque country is insufficient.

I'm struggling to reconcile this with the inference in the RFEC resolution that EU meat is tested enough so that any positive tests can not be considered as negligence.

 

[python]

my understanding is that only the steaks are tested, not the living cows. i think the harsh truth is that cattle farmers have simply learned to wait long enough for the Clen to be out of the cows system before butchering. this also gives enough time for the cow to get the full benifits of the injection.

i dont know much about farming in general and any meat industry specifically. so take what i write with the note.

what i have read regarding how the regulators test cows is this (keep in mind, everyone here means that contador had to trace and test the cow, not the regulators).

when the regulators arrive at the farm, they use urine screening test. generally screening tests are bulk, quick tests. if they get a flag, then they will scrutinize the farm by focusing on testing those parts that biologically tend to accumulate clenbuterol - liver and the retina of the eye. perhaps they test the meat too, but that would be less effective if you're looking for perpetrators...

now, when contador could act in just in 2.5 months, that's a lot of time to sweep the evidence under the rug - mix and distribute meat lots etc.

but this is all moot. contador's interviews clearly hints (but dont scream) at the butcher shop, not the farm.

 

[Blakeslee]

I fail to see how a conviction of Contador would have any rider stop using blood doping.

I understand what you are saying here, but I still feel cycling's governing bodies need to push harder on the potential connection with the Contador case and blood doping. The nature of Clenbuterol would seem to make it unlikely that Contador was using the drug during the race and/or micro-dosing. That leaves two possible explanations for how the Clenbuterol got in his system: it was either through food contamination or through trace amounts contained in a blood transfusion taken on the rest day.

I won't bother going into more detail since this subject has already been thoroughly discussed, but I personally find the blood transfusion explanation to be the more plausible of the two. The biggest hole in anti-doping efforts is currently the inability to test for blood transfusions. While Contador's case is indeed ultimately about Clenbuterol, I don't think cycling's governing bodies can afford not to attempt to make a connection with blood doping in this case. Ultimately there will need to be a direct way developed for testing for blood doping, but until that happens establishing an indirect precedent through cases like Contador's would be a small step in the right direction. What happened with Ricco to me underlines the urgency of this issue, I don't feel cycling's governing bodies can afford to sit back and need to be aggressively pursuing every opportunity to act against blood doping.

 

[badboygolf16v]

Millar was right, Contador was thrown to the sharks.

Thank goodness justice has been done.

 

[Hugh Januss]

i dont know much about farming in general and any meat industry specifically. so take what i write with the note.

what i have read regarding how the regulators test cows is this (keep in mind, everyone here means that contador had to trace and test the cow, not the regulators).

when the regulators arrive at the farm, they use urine screening test. generally screening tests are bulk, quick tests. if they get a flag, then they will scrutinize the farm by focusing on testing those parts that biologically tend to accumulate clenbuterol - liver and the retina of the eye. perhaps they test the meat too, but that would be less effective if you're looking for perpetrators...

now, when contador could act in just in 2.5 months, that's a lot of time to sweep the evidence under the rug - mix and distribute meat lots etc.

but this is all moot. contador's interviews clearly hints (but dont scream) at the butcher shop, not the farm.

You've said that a couple times, but wasn't Contador told about the test long before it was leaked to the media and any of us found out about it? That was how I understood it anyway, that the UCI (McQuaid) informed Contador's people and told them not to make it public.

 

[Hotbrakes]

At this years TDF can someone please run beside Contador on one of the mountain stages, with a nice juicy piece of meat on a fork.

 

[Dallas_]

At this years TDF can someone place run beside Contador on one of the mountain stages, with a nice juicy piece of meat on a fork.

I am sure a tifosi has already planned that, but ASO will exert pressure for the CAS appeal to be concluded before TDF. Predict - no AC at TDF.

cheers

Find me an accountant involved in fraud and whom does not lie! ---- Now find me a doper who does not lie!

 

[Hugh Januss]

I am sure a tifosi has already planned that, but ASO will exert pressure for the CAS appeal to be concluded before TDF. Predict - no AC at TDF.

You are thinking of the old ASO, I'd be surprised if the new ASO doesn't want the Contador/Schleck rematch at all costs. They want him to be cleared and ready to race.

 

[BYOP88]

I guess WADA will ban him(which even as a fan of Contador I think should happen, after all he failed a test, probably not what they were hoping to nail him for but still he failed) but the thing that troubles me about WADA is this, a few months ago some South African rugby players failed a doping test and were cleared by their home authority and I don't see WADA or anyone trying to contest that result. So why are WADA just interested in enforcing bans in cycling but not that bothered by other sports?

 

[Dallas_]

I also note that regardless whether it was intended or accidental, "if the sample came from an in-competition test, then the results of the athlete for that competition are automatically invalidated". Meaning he's supposed to lose his TdF win no matter what according to the strict liability. Funny how that has been swept under the rug so far.

and Alpe d'Huez replying to Cobblestones
Yes, excellent post. That's what I was trying to point out before, but I think you said it better in your post. It's the point of discussion no one wants to discuss.


There is some juicy meat in this paragraph Cobblestones and in my opinion deserves a thread devoted to it.

You introduced it. Do you want to get the ball rolling?

cheers

Find me an accountant involved in fraud and whom does not lie! ---- Now find me a doper who does not lie!

 

[Dallas_]

You are thinking of the old ASO, I'd be surprised if the new ASO doesn't want the Contador/Schleck rematch at all costs. They want him to be cleared and ready to race.

Maybe the new ASO do think that way, but I still predict CAS and no TDF for AC

cheers

Find me an accountant involved in fraud and whom does not lie! ---- Now find me a doper who does not lie!

 

[runninboy]

You are thinking of the old ASO, I'd be surprised if the new ASO doesn't want the Contador/Schleck rematch at all costs. They want him to be cleared and ready to race.

So right Money talks to these people.
I personally think that this case won't even go to CAS think about it this was all cooked up in a backroom(not literally of course)
but with input from AC UCI , Spanish Beef, Spanish Prime Minister etc etc
some lawyer got the great idea to have a little clerical error that results in procedural error that denies AC his constitutional rights.

This gives UCI the chance to look tough but aw shucks we made a boo boo.
the beef industry does not take a substantial hit as the "tainted" beef theory is not proven. Later in exchange for their silence they will be granted a nice litle take break or subsidy in some form.

The EU will not investigate as there were no clen fed cows found.

this little mishap benefits everyone. CAS will not take it up because if they reverse the decision all AC's lawyers have to do is point to Spanish law and the denial of AC's rights. If CAS persists AC & Spain will go after CAS for the Spanish version of restraint of trade.

ASO wants the matchup of AC & Schleck it means more money, more theatre.

As far as the chances of a legal secretary actually slipping up and not sending copies of correspondence to all parties involved, it is very rare. firms would be liable for huge judgements in such an event. In this case the only "damages" would be in the non sanctioning of rider violating the drug policy. But in the real world such a failure could have multi million dollar consequences.
The fact that this little mistake was perpetrated by the same people who didn't want to "crucify" contador speaks volumes.
Not to mention this protects them against having to reverse themselves on earlier Clen cases involving two year suspensions. Because it was all to do with Spanish law, not the clen. the bans will stand for the others but not for AC.

 

[hrotha]

Oh, don't worry about that. The RFEC ruling says Contador not receiving that letter was inconsequential and that his rights were not infringed.

As for the rest of your post, there's one player you're not considering: WADA.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Oh, don't worry about that. The RFEC ruling says Contador not receiving that letter was inconsequential and that his rights were not infringed.

As for the rest of your post, there's one player you're not considering: WADA.

Exactly, CAS can not "take it up" on their own anyway. In order to come before CAS either UCI or WADA have to appeal the RFEC decision, my money is on WADA.

 

[rata de sentina]

my understanding is that only the steaks are tested, not the living cows. i think the harsh truth is that cattle farmers have simply learned to wait long enough for the Clen to be out of the cows system before butchering. this also gives enough time for the cow to get the full benifits of the injection.

They don't need to inject it. They can put it in the drinking water. See Ramos et al "Evaluation of the illegal use of clenbuterol in Portuguese cattle farms from drinking water, urine, hair and feed samples" Food Additives and Contaminants Vol. 26, No. 6, June 2009, 814–820.

 

[Paco_P]

Spanish meat is tested a lot more--and a lot more seriously--than Spanish riders.

The meat with clenbuterol in it is reserved for export.

 

[soulor]

Apologies if already posted. Ross Tucker's blog has some interesting comments on the RFEC decision in relation to strict liability and proof of inadvertent ingestion. He uses a comparison case from SA rugby.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/

 

[auscyclefan94]

May I just show a little paragraph reffering to the beyond reasonable doubt.

The Crown or the state must prove their case beyond reasonable doubt. This means that if any other plausible conclusion besides proving the crminal charges can be made from the evidence, there is reasonable doubt.

The doubt still has to be plausible for it to count as a defence. If the defence is plausible then the only other conclsion of the clenbuterol being in the system is from doping.