Contador acquitted

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Jul 22, 2009
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Fact of the matter is that such claims by a high profile public figure as Contador, has serious financial consequences for the interested food industry of Spain. It amounts to a significant effort at monetary destruction for some law abiding, well-intentioned individuals.
 
Feb 23, 2010
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scribe said:
Fact of the matter is that such claims by a high profile public figure as Contador, has serious financial consequences for the interested food industry of Spain. It amounts to a significant effort at monetary destruction for some law abiding, well-intentioned individuals.

Yes indeed. The livelihood of 150,000 families in exchange for one get out of jail free card. Hope he has a clear conscience because that's a lot of collateral damage.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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That is one way of looking at it. Probably another way is that modern industrial farming and agriculture is bad news and deserves to have some light shed on it. Use of hormones and steroids for meat and poultry is a terrible thing. Lets not get all turned around here.If this makes people ask some questions about what can and does happen to the food on your table then there may be some "positive" results from this positive result!
 
Mar 18, 2009
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dolophonic said:
That is one way of looking at it. Probably another way is that modern industrial farming and agriculture is bad news and deserves to have some light shed on it. Use of hormones and steroids for meat and poultry is a terrible thing. Lets not get all turned around here.If this makes people ask some questions about what can and does happen to the food on your table then there may be some "positive" results from this positive result!

Please...don't even go there. The comment that hormones and steriods in meat and poultry is a terrible thing...smacks of near sightedness. Modified meats and crops are here because of the growth of the population. There is more demand. While in a perfect world you would not need these "additives" sorry to say we don't live in one...and the consequences of Contador's comments could very well hurt quite a lot of people. And may I ask...why is modern industrial farming bad news??
 
Jun 10, 2010
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The key here is Dr. Martín-Jiménez's reports. Specifically document no. 6 regarding autotransfusions with clen-contaminated blood. Maybe Cyclingnews could contact him for an interview? He's done interviews before, in November, when he was asked about his initial report on the plausibility of testing positive for clenbuterol after eating a normal amount of meat. If I wasn't such a nobody I'd email him myself.
 
May 26, 2010
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TRDean said:
Please...don't even go there. The comment that hormones and steriods in meat and poultry is a terrible thing...smacks of near sightedness. Modified meats and crops are here because of the growth of the population. There is more demand. While in a perfect world you would not need these "additives" sorry to say we don't live in one...and the consequences of Contador's comments could very well hurt quite a lot of people. And may I ask...why is modern industrial farming bad news??

because it puts world class cyclists at risk :rolleyes:
 
Oct 29, 2009
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scribe said:
Fact of the matter is that such claims by a high profile public figure as Contador, has serious financial consequences for the interested food industry of Spain. It amounts to a significant effort at monetary destruction for some law abiding, well-intentioned individuals.

If he had become seriously ill or died because of it, maybe. People can react strongly to genuine food scares, rationally and irrationally.

But I would be amazed if people had altered the buying habits of either the public or the industry buyers in any measurable way. That would have hit the papers by now. I haven't got the actual sales figures (nor do you I suspect).

So when you make the rather alarmist observations in your post, at least demonstrate that it had an actual significant impact, before starting to talk about a significant effort at monetary destruction of an industry. If you want Contador to be found guilty, fair enough. But to take every angle against and blow it up... there are better arguments that don't overshoot reality, I think.

Of course the Spanish meat industry comes out with a strongly worded reaction. I suspect that their concern at the moment is mainly about image, and their call is the direct result of representative responsibilities they have for their industry members.

And again we get that figure of x-amount of cattle tested and "not one positive". What does that actually mean? Tested to what level? Of legit sources only? How possible is illicit? Etc....

That the organisation expresses surprise that Contador didn't ring official alarm bells about the "crime against public health of which he allegedly was the victim", well, that's neither here nor there. That would hardly have been Contador's main concern even if we assume that his claim is and honestly held one, I think. He's fighting for his cycling skin. He's not there to "sort issues within the meat industry", if that has issues that need addressing.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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TRDean said:
Please...don't even go there. The comment that hormones and steriods in meat and poultry is a terrible thing...smacks of near sightedness. Modified meats and crops are here because of the growth of the population. There is more demand. While in a perfect world you would not need these "additives" sorry to say we don't live in one...and the consequences of Contador's comments could very well hurt quite a lot of people. And may I ask...why is modern industrial farming bad news??

http://michaelpollan.com/books/in-defense-of-food/

Try starting here....
 
Jun 10, 2010
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Francois the Postman said:
And again we get that figure of x-amount of cattle tested and "not one positive". What does that actually mean? Tested to what level?
According to WADA, the meat would have needed to have anything between 312 ng/kg (three times the EU minimum detection threshold) and 11,000 ng/kg. In any case, perfectly detectable with the current testing standards.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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hrotha said:
The key here is Dr. Martín-Jiménez's reports. Specifically document no. 6 regarding autotransfusions with clen-contaminated blood. Maybe Cyclingnews could contact him for an interview? He's done interviews before, in November, when he was asked about his initial report on the plausibility of testing positive for clenbuterol after eating a normal amount of meat. If I wasn't such a nobody I'd email him myself.

Why don't you? I am one of those nobody's too, and have been amazed by the willingness of scientists with much more important things on their plate to answer questions by "the public", even if I would have happily settled for someone "minor" around them to have dealt with a clarification request.

Don't forget that a lot of them do "science" for "the public" in the end, and engaging with the actual public is not as alien to them a we sometimes assume/fear.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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hrotha said:
According to WADA, the meat would have needed to have anything between 312 ng/kg (three times the EU minimum detection threshold) and 11,000 ng/kg. In any case, perfectly detectable with the current testing standards.

Cheers. Which leaves the question, what meat is subjected to tests? Meat presented for slaughter, or meat available at a point of sale/consumption? I do know a wee bit about the food/meat industry's state a good 20 years ago, I have no idea how hard/easy/common it is these days to bypass the official routes. I do know they have clamped down quite a bit. I doubt if it is as fool proof as it is made out to be. It certainly wasn't then. I would love to read up about that.

[and just for clarity sake: if I had to place a wager, it would not be on Contador's account of things]
 
Oct 29, 2009
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TRDean said:
Please...don't even go there. The comment that hormones and steriods in meat and poultry is a terrible thing...smacks of near sightedness. Modified meats and crops are here because of the growth of the population. There is more demand. While in a perfect world you would not need these "additives" sorry to say we don't live in one...and the consequences of Contador's comments could very well hurt quite a lot of people. And may I ask...why is modern industrial farming bad news??

The observation that it is a mixed blessing is a very valid one though. It is a very complex issue with consequences that ripple through our environment well beyond what we consume/feed now.

The only honest position is that modern farming and individual products have their place, but which ones and to what extent and in what circumstances, and at which cost, needs constant monitoring and re-evaluation.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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TRDean said:
Please...don't even go there. The comment that hormones and steriods in meat and poultry is a terrible thing...smacks of near sightedness. Modified meats and crops are here because of the growth of the population. There is more demand. While in a perfect world you would not need these "additives" sorry to say we don't live in one...and the consequences of Contador's comments could very well hurt quite a lot of people. And may I ask...why is modern industrial farming bad news??

I agree. Alot of misinformation out there about food production. I see Francois makes a comment about the testing of cattle to who's standards etc etc.Which are legitimate questions. As a cattle producer we raise our beef naturally. But i can tell u in the USA the hormonal ear implants that are used by some producers legally instead of clenbuterol are now shown to release the drug in such small amounts that in blood testing of hormone levels it is impossible in most cases to differentiate between an implanted calf and a non implanted calf as the hormone levels stay within normal paramaters.

As agricultural land has been reduced in need of a growing populations housing desires the American farmer has become far more efficient. This efficiency has been given negative connotations by people with contrary agendas.

Lets look at genetically modified corn for example. In the old days you had open pollinated corn, you had to plant male plants & female plants and originally was pollinated by wind. Not very efficient. Then later seed corn companies would hire people to pollinate the corn by hand. This was better but still kept yields under 100 bushels to the acre. Then came the first "genetically modified" corn. Hybrid corn. Selective breeding produced better & better production.
Nowadays the seed corn companies develop hybids and plant them in northern & southern hemispheres to quicken their genetic development and rapidly develop corn which can withstand severe drought to be used in places like africa. There are modern varieties which can grow on less than 1/3 the amount of water than previous varieties. Also disease and pest resistant, mold resistant.
Because of these developments people in harsh enviroments will be better able to provide for their families.
Nowadays through denser plantings & better seed it is not uncommon to see yields of 300 bushels to the acre. Less loss of topsoil, less chemical runoff etc etc.
People also talk about gov subsidies. Here is a little known fact.If you take one dollar from any program offered by the US ag agency, they have control over all your operations.
Just as an example, our family rents ground to the government for wildlife habitat. we receive $100 per acre per year, it is cropland that could rent for almost 10 times that. However many people classify this as a government subsidy. Anyway our family farm is incorporated. My mother owns a few acres in her own name which she rents. We were contacted that the tenant on her land had planted his soybeans in the wrong direction and all of the families farm money would be withheld until the practice was rectified. The law is the gov has to know all people with interests in any farming operation, if that person only holds 1% share 100 percent of money can be withheld from the operation or corporation for "violations" occuring on other land owned by a shareholder.
In this way the government retains control over virtually all of the farmland in the USA while only actually having a much smaller financial interest.
For the record the field was reinspected closer and found to be in compliance(hard to tell the direction of immature plants just driving by a field)
While "industrial" farming, is held up as a horrific practice it is not always so.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Contador casting himself as somewhat heroic because he helped the sport with the inequities of testing just moved him above LA for Chief Obfusicator. Whether the UCI or WADA succeeds in appealing this decision Contador has emerged as a World Class sociopath.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Francois the Postman said:
The observation that it is a mixed blessing is a very valid one though. It is a very complex issue with consequences that ripple through our environment well beyond what we consume/feed now.

The only honest position is that modern farming and individual products have their place, but which ones and to what extent and in what circumstances, and at which cost, needs constant monitoring and re-evaluation.
I disagree big surprise. I guess that makes me dishonest:rolleyes:
Seriously, in the USA for the most part, farming has always been on the "honor" system. And it has worked very well. We have actually never had a case of "mad cow" from any US born cow that i am aware of. The only memory i have of mad cow was a canadian import. People i know of don't get into farming to get rich, seriously. What my grandfather taught me is famers are just the caretakers for something that will be here long after i am gone. Farmers by and large police themselves. Maybe it is differrent where u live, if so that is too bad. Here for instance most farmers took it upon themselves to implement better farming practices, planting buffer strips, using no till, etc etc because it is better for the preservation of the land. Also as i have stated i had no knowledge of clenbuterol because why would i want to do something illegal and is non effective in comparison to other natural methods. You want more muscle less fat? just turn them into the pasture and don't feed grain except in winter.
Maybe drugs are prevelant in the raising of European livestock but it is not common practice where i live.
And while u may think things dont change in 20 years they do. 20 years ago we used to think bigger calfs at birth lead to bigger calves at sale time. Lost a few cows in childbirth,then we found if you had smaller calves but mothers who produced more milk they would be virtually the same size calves at sale time. So we decreased cow and calf mortality rates and efficiency. 80 calving efficieny used to be good, now we are constantly in the 95-98 percent range.
 
Apr 7, 2009
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Wow, that's confusing. You mean the govt. requires you to plant a seed a certain direction??? I think the govt. does some good things and some bad things....
 
Apr 13, 2010
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By the way, Saxo Bank had a Press Conference last night at Volta Algarve - assume it's in connection with this.

Anybody - maybe in the press? - who knows what went on????
 
Jun 16, 2009
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scribe said:
Fact of the matter is that such claims by a high profile public figure as Contador, has serious financial consequences for the interested food industry of Spain. It amounts to a significant effort at monetary destruction for some law abiding, well-intentioned individuals.

scribe i rarely agree with you but this is spot on.

If there really was contaminated meat in the food supply of Spain it should be fully investigated and exposed to protect the public but also to isolate and punish the individuals involved in the illegal activity.

That is why i have a problem with someones contention that it was not Contadors job to alert people.
Lets say LA consumed meat contaminated from Ecoli. Doesn't he have a moral responsibility to report it to the authorities. Not just because of his own health but to protect others? If people are at risk because of the food supply and you are a victim do you not do all you can to rectify the problem?
that way INNOCENT producers are not affected long term by the actions of the few bad apples. "We have isolated and contained the problem to insure the safety of the general public" A statement like that would help to preserve the financial interests of a whole industry and that statement can only be made after notification and action.

When i was in school i remember a simple cartoon, there is a hole in the road and people keep falling into it, until finally one individual comes along and after falling in says" i better fix this hole" and does.

If AC did consume tainted beef it was his moral responsibility to try to rectify the situation as quickly as possible. Self preservation was foremost on his mind, and the fact that people seem to think this is perfectably acceptable behaviour to put your own needs ahead of that of you community i find quite sad.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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mwbyrd said:
Wow, that's confusing. You mean the govt. requires you to plant a seed a certain direction??? I think the govt. does some good things and some bad things....
Yes they do, you have to plant in certain directions to minimize soil erosion. the fact that they spend quite a bit of money trying to figure out whether you comply or not when it is financially advantageous for you to plant properly is pretty amazing. They constantly fly over fields, then drive by, then spend even more man hours drafting no compliance letters, then more to actually walk through the fields to say
WHOOPS! my bad.
Here is something else, i got a notice i needed to clear some trees out of the wildlife area or i wouldnt get the rent. OK, the farmer next to me was actually getting a subsidy to plant trees. After i had spent quite a few man hours and alot of money finding i had not complied, oooops the agency was looking at the wrong field...
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Francois the Postman said:
Cheers. Which leaves the question, what meat is subjected to tests? Meat presented for slaughter, or meat available at a point of sale/consumption? I do know a wee bit about the food/meat industry's state a good 20 years ago, I have no idea how hard/easy/common it is these days to bypass the official routes. I do know they have clamped down quite a bit. I doubt if it is as fool proof as it is made out to be. It certainly wasn't then. I would love to read up about that.

[and just for clarity sake: if I had to place a wager, it would not be on Contador's account of things]

In the US Meat is tested at processing(slaughter) in order to receive the inspection seal needed for sale. Body temperature is taken as well as samples. If you want to "bypass" official inspection in the US it is a serious crime. The only meat not inspected is for personal consumption. that is broken down & packed with the producers name. There is also a limit of how much you can"consume" without being required to inspect.
In the US a local producer had some goats which he used to sell to Muslims one at a time.When the government got wind of it they made him comply with commercial regulations and build a slaughterhouse and processing facility and have government inspections even though it was purely for personal consumption.
 
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