Contador acquitted

[Benotti69]

seems it is going to go all the way for Contador

http://road.cc/content/news/31460-m...-day-court-over-alberto-contador-doping-case…

I imagine that Contador and his people know this anyway and are making plans for his career as he continues until the case comes up a la Valverde.

What he does career wise after will be interesting, but his career is tainted forever by this, except maybe to some of the Spanish.

 

[Merckx index]

seems it is going to go all the way for Contador

http://road.cc/content/news/31460-m...-day-court-over-alberto-contador-doping-case…

I imagine that Contador and his people know this anyway and are making plans for his career as he continues until the case comes up a la Valverde.

What he does career wise after will be interesting, but his career is tainted forever by this, except maybe to some of the Spanish.

Ah, been waiting for this. It will be an interesting July, to say the least (and May, too, I guess). I'm particularly curious to see if WADA brings in the DEHP results in their appeal, and if they do, whether they will explain why they apparently were not included in the initial docs they gave REFC. If it’s because they were waiting for the test to be validated, could that wait affect how quickly they pursue an appeal?

I also hope the appeal brings out in the open the arguments Bert’s lawyers supposedly made that CB contamination could not occur through a transfusion. The caso Contador document mentions this, but provides no specifics. Since they were more specific in their arguments about CB testing of cattle, providing some numbers, I find it interesting that this REFC summary did not provide details of this other, really crucial I would say, argument.

On the thorny subject of a baseline threshold for clenbuterol testing, below which samples would not be considered positive, Howman said that was a decision for WADA policy makers but he made it clear that he was not in favour:

"I think the issue is this. If you introduce a threshold, then what you might do is miss a person who has taken the substance let's say three months ago, and it's still in their body. So when they test, it's not a huge amount, it's a small amount because it's left over from three months ago."

Much as I agree with the general sentiment expressed here, as tests become more sensitive, the argument for a threshold becomes better. See my post in the "WADA you going to do" thread. Bert tested 10 pg. higher on July 25 than on July 23. This most likely represents imprecision in the test. If values can vary by as much as 10 pg from day to day, then a rider shouldn’t be penalized for having values in this range. This shouldn’t affect Bert’s case, based on an initial value of 50 pg., but it suggests a 10 pg/ml reading could be a false positive. Like any false positive rule, it will let some dopers through the net, but in this case I think you have to allow that to happen.

 

[Cimber]

I like him. He seems like a very nice guy. But that does not mean that I belive that he is not guilty and should not be punished. He broke the rules and the Spanish Federation are trying to get him off the hook on a technicality.

Simple: I like the guy but he should be punished.

Well shouldnt we let the official agencies make the call on that? I mean they probably know a hell more about it that we do and they got access to the whole load of information. Now, if UCI/WADA dont appeal it measn that they agree with RFEC's report, and thus we should support that ruling when its backed by UCI/WADA. If UCI/WADA does appeas, which I think they will, CAS will make the final judgement, and we should trust that final CAS-verdict either way it goes. The is no reason to let the "street mob" make the verdict.

 

[Cimber]

What he does career wise after will be interesting, but his career is tainted forever by this, except maybe to some of the Spanish.

and wouldnt that be sad is he really is innocent? I hope the case goes to CAS. If they turn out to aquit him hopefully that well make his career less tainted (unless the word of the street mob has to much influence), but if they find him guilty then he is guilty and deserves his penalty.

 

[Benotti69]

and wouldnt that be sad is he really is innocent? I hope the case goes to CAS. If they turn out to aquit him hopefully that well make his career less tainted (unless the word of the street mob has to much influence), but if they find him guilty then he is guilty and deserves his penalty.

"the word of the street mob"? if you mean the few in the clinic who have doubted Contador as a clean athlete for a long time before testing positive for Clenbuterol, well i hardly think their numbers are enough to add up to a mob, but thanks for the compliment.

Contador's name has been associated with Saiz, Liberty Seguros, Astana, Bruyneel and now Bjarne Riis all before this came out. Based on these factors alone it is enough IMO to doubt that he rides clean. But now we have a test that found a substance and he has to prove how it got there in order to avoid a ban. Howman(head of Wada) says he has yet to see proof that no doping took place.

 

[Cimber]

"the word of the street mob"? if you mean the few in the clinic who have doubted Contador as a clean athlete for a long time before testing positive for Clenbuterol, well i hardly think their numbers are enough to add up to a mob, but thanks for the compliment.

Contador's name has been associated with Saiz, Liberty Seguros, Astana, Bruyneel and now Bjarne Riis all before this came out. Based on these factors alone it is enough IMO to doubt that he rides clean. But now we have a test that found a substance and he has to prove how it got there in order to avoid a ban. Howman(head of Wada) says he has yet to see proof that no doping took place.

Has any successful rider not been linked to doping? There will always be socalled experts who say stuff like that in cycling. Likewise there will all ways be spcalled experts who say the oposite (fx chairman of the Danish anti doping agency just praised the work of RFEC and called it very thorough). There are always experts supporting either side of the story. And in cycling there will always be experts making doping accusations. Because of the history of cycling ppl will always cry "doping" when a cyclist does very well, especially when he is not the one they root for.

So every ride who has ever ridden for Saiz, Astana, Bruyneel or Riis are dopers? Thats a huge chunk of the peloton right there, including the Schlecks.

No the by "street mob" I mean ppl on forums, cycling-fans, media etc who claim to "know the truth2 based on fragments of informations or often just rumours accepeted as facts (plasticizer fx).

I am not a fan of contador. I dunno if he is innocent. But I am sick of tired on stret mob mentality where riders r judged as guilty nomatter what.

 

[sniper]

Has any successful rider not been linked to doping? There will always be socalled experts who say stuff like that in cycling. Likewise there will all ways be spcalled experts who say the oposite (fx chairman of the Danish anti doping agency just praised the work of RFEC and called it very thorough). There are always experts supporting either side of the story. And in cycling there will always be experts making doping accusations. Because of the history of cycling ppl will always cry "doping" when a cyclist does very well, especially when he is not the one they root for.

So every ride who has ever ridden for Saiz, Astana, Bruyneel or Riis are dopers? Thats a huge chunk of the peloton right there, including the Schlecks.

No the by "street mob" I mean ppl on forums, cycling-fans, media etc who claim to "know the truth2 based on fragments of informations or often just rumours accepeted as facts (plasticizer fx).

I am not a fan of contador. I dunno if he is innocent. But I am sick of tired on stret mob mentality where riders r judged as guilty nomatter what.

I'd suggest you start by taking off the blinders. some sunlight won't do you harm.
Then, try pulling santa's beard next time you sit on his lap. it just might come off.

 

[Benotti69]

Has any successful rider not been linked to doping?

Greg Lemond

There will always be socalled experts who say stuff like that in cycling. Likewise there will all ways be spcalled experts who say the oposite (fx chairman of the Danish anti doping agency just praised the work of RFEC and called it very thorough). There are always experts supporting either side of the story. And in cycling there will always be experts making doping accusations. Because of the history of cycling ppl will always cry "doping" when a cyclist does very well, especially when he is not the one they root for

the 'so called experts' you are referring to in here are quite knowledgable bunch and most of the hard points have links to evidence.

the fact that Contador rides for Danish team Saxo Sungaard means nothing? If we heard the head of WADA say that then you have a truly balanced argument, but a Dane speaking about a rider on a Danish team well that's as above board as RFEC saying Contador did eat a steak with Clen in it!

Howman (WADA) has said he has seen nothing to prove Contador is innocent.

So every ride who has ever ridden for Saiz, Astana, Bruyneel or Riis are dopers? Thats a huge chunk of the peloton right there, including the Schlecks.

You wouldn't be far wrong. Frank Schleck paid thousands to Fuentes, but managed not to get sanctioned? Why? he rode for a Danish team per chance? The Schlecks rode for a TdF winner who admitted to using EPO to win. Schlecks are dopers in my eyes.

No the by "street mob" I mean ppl on forums, cycling-fans, media etc who claim to "know the truth2 based on fragments of informations or often just rumours accepeted as facts (plasticizer fx).

Cycling fans are generally very forgiving of the rider's and the media, well, they pretend doping doesn't exist until the non cycling media address it than the cycling media remember it does.

The Clinic is a minute part of cycling forums out there, remember cycling is bigger in non English speaking countries and their forums are far more sycophantic than here.

I am not a fan of contador. I dunno if he is innocent. But I am sick of tired on stret mob mentality where riders r judged as guilty nomatter what.

not a fan? you have made lots of posts in his corner. this is cycling we are talking about, the doping has been and continues to appear to be so prevalent that riders when testing positive are guilty until proven innocent even for minute traces of Clen.

you have to look at the dots, where they join and make your own conclusion. Valverde for example would still be racing if it was not for the Italians who matched his blood taken from a race in Italy with a sample they got from Op Puerto yet i joined the dots and did not need the Italians to prove what i already guessed. i am not going to ban riders but i can make a very good guess on who is and who isn't as could most who follow cycling with their eyes wide open. I post here, I don't advertise my guesses and that's exactly what they are as i am not privy to the 'intimate training moments' that happen in hotel rooms, rider's apartments, team buses etc but some on here are and they are worth listening too..

 

[sniper]

You make that join-the-dots-part sound easy, but it's a hell of a task when you're wearing blinders.

 

[sniper]

snip

you have to look at the dots, where they join and make your own conclusion. Valverde for example would still be racing if it was not for the Italians who matched his blood taken from a race in Italy with a sample they got from Op Puerto yet i joined the dots and did not need the Italians to prove what i already guessed. i am not going to ban riders but i can make a very good guess on who is and who isn't as could most who follow cycling with their eyes wide open. I post here, I don't advertise my guesses and that's exactly what they are as i am not privy to the 'intimate training moments' that happen in hotel rooms, rider's apartments, team buses etc but some on here are and they are worth listening too..

You make that join-the-dots-part sound easy, but it's a hell of a task when you're wearing blinders.

 

[Benotti69]

You make that join-the-dots-part sound easy, but it's a hell of a task when you're wearing blinders.

not easy, and getting harder but there are leaks coming out all the time.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

REFC Decision

Does anyone know if it is possible to get a copy of the official REFC decision? I mean the one that WADA and the UCI would receive in order to consider whether or not they will appeal. Thanks.

 

[hrotha]

Does anyone know if it is possible to get a copy of the official REFC decision? I mean the one that WADA and the UCI would receive in order to consider whether or not they will appeal. Thanks.

You mean the full dossier, including the defense documents, or just the 35-page decision? If it's the latter: http://estaticos.elmundo.es/documentos/2011/02/16/resolucion.pdf

 

[contajor]

Can someone explain

The argument that was used by Contador's lawyer was that beef is not tested in Spain, this is what got Contador off.

Meantime, we never saw proof that he ate meat from Spain.

Was there a political motive in finding Contador not guilty?

How can Spaniards be impartial about their champion?

Should national bodies be removed from making decisions about their athletes

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

The argument that was used by Contador's lawyer was that beef is not tested in Spain, this is what got Contador off.

Meantime, we never saw proof that he ate meat from Spain.

Was there a political motive in finding Contador not guilty?

How can Spaniards be impartial about their champion?

Should national bodies be removed from making decisions about their athletes

LOL. Welcome back.

Give it a rest. Not like the USCF did a damn thing about US cyclists anyway for years.

 

[Merckx index]

The argument that was used by Contador's lawyer was that beef is not tested in Spain, this is what got Contador off.

That is not quite correct. The argument they made, in the Caso Contador summary of the case, was that there was insufficient testing of cattle, not in Spain, but in the Basque region where they claim the meat Bert ate came from. See my post in the "WADA you going to do" thread, it's all discussed there.

 

[sniper]

Anybody still having doubts about Spain's anti-doping policies?
No need for that:

España no es un paraíso del dopaje
http://es.eurosport.yahoo.com/28022011/47/espana-paraiso-dopaje.html

 

[contajor]

Sounds like BS. I think the spanish will do their best to find their athletes innocent.

I believe Contador is guilty, and don't believe a spanish commission can be trusted to make justice happen.

 

[theswordsman]

I've avoided this thread, but AS has a digital version of the entire RFEC Resolution that can be run through Google Translate.

http://www.as.com/misc/resolucion_caso_contador.pdf

Here's a fresh interview with Contador that just hit online. He is seeking damages against various media for slander.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/6k2ejad

A lawyer who works with Contador's looked at the case and wrote it up for non-lawyers.

http://derechoynormas.blogspot.com/2011/02/el-caso-alberto-contador-para-no.html

I'm not looking up the link, but in case it was missed here, Contador said that if he'd been sanctioned a year, he would have appealed, but it wouldn't have been to CAS.

 

[webvan]

Ah so who would he have appealed to? A Spanish court, the Human Rights court in Strasbourg?

So just because a bunch of puppets refused to sanction the national idol, Bertie is firing on all cylinders? It seems to me he is pushing his luck here, if I were him I would lay low and see what happens when WADA take it up with CAS...

I wonder if "Humo" who published this interview of an Astana team member who gave us the most plausible explanation as to what happened are getting sued. That might bring bring back that story to life, after it got swept under the carpet by pretty much everyone it seems!

 

[sniper]

Ah so who would he have appealed to? A Spanish court, the Human Rights court in Strasbourg?

So just because a bunch of puppets refused to sanction the national idol, Bertie is firing on all cylinders? It seems to me he is pushing his luck here, if I were him I would lay low and see what happens when WADA take it up with CAS...

I wonder if "Humo" who published this interview of an Astana team member who gave us the most plausible explanation as to what happened are getting sued. That might bring bring back that story to life, after it got swept under the carpet by pretty much everyone it seems!

I was mugged, tarnished and foltered around here for saying/asking exactly this a couple a weeks back.

 

[python]

I was mugged, tarnished and foltered around here for saying/asking exactly this a couple a weeks back.

can you unleash you lawyers at the offending posters anf the cn for tarnishing your forum reputation ?

but seriously, all these games by lawyers aren't worth much compared to the only court that matters - cas. we have only about 2 weeks to wait for the uci word and another 3 (if uci declined) for wada.

 

[fcojavier]

Any comment about the alleged (by Contador lawyers) incompatibility of the clenbuterol levels and autotransfusion?

 

[Captain_Cavman]

Anybody still having doubts about Spain's anti-doping policies?
No need for that:

España no es un paraíso del dopaje
http://es.eurosport.yahoo.com/28022011/47/espana-paraiso-dopaje.html

Love this google translation, Since 2004, carried out 44 anti-doping police operations, he said, with the result of 536 arrested and 22 charged, "Not that I'm gay, but these figures show that the system works."


http://translate.google.com/transla...1032011/47/espana-paraiso-dopaje.html&act=url

 

[Cimber]

Greg Lemond

The exception that proves the rule?

the 'so called experts' you are referring to in here are quite knowledgable

This holds true for both side of the fence.

the fact that Contador rides for Danish team Saxo Sungaard means nothing? If we heard the head of WADA say that then you have a truly balanced argument, but a Dane speaking about a rider on a Danish team well that's as above board as RFEC saying Contador did eat a steak with Clen in it!

Actually it would often make it worse. A lot of Danish anti-doping experts are often being a lot more tough on riders who ride on Saxo-Bank. Infact Jens Evald, who was the one praising RFEC's report, if otherwise known to be one of the tough guys and generally strike down hard on riders who are accused of doping. Fx he argued for a suspention of Basso when he was riding for Riis. So your point of view that ppl are always biased based on nationality just aint true.

You wouldn't be far wrong.

So every rider who have ever ridden for those persons or teams are dopers? Very long list though would make.

Cycling fans are generally very forgiving of the rider's and the media, well, they pretend doping doesn't exist until the non cycling media address it than the cycling media remember it does.

That is only part of the story. A lot of other cycling fans seem to yell "DOPING" every time a rider does something extraordinary. But that is ofcourse to a great extend the cycling sport's own fault, especially the the events in the 90s.

The Clinic is a minute part of cycling forums out there, remember cycling is bigger in non English speaking countries and their forums are far more sycophantic than here.

True, but I dont think its fair to generalize them like that. But anyways, English speaking forums also attract non-native-English ppl, but nevertheless it is ofcourse true that cyclingnews is only a fish in the pond. But not to be understimated. Cyclingnews.com (not the forum) is often quoted in Danish media.

not a fan? you have made lots of posts in his corner.

Oh and I explained why. I am not a fan but I have made a lot of posts in his corner, simply because I think this thread needs ppl who play the devil's advocate and argue from the other side of the fence. to many ppl argue very simple mindedly that "trace clen = 2 year ban. No discussion needed, because thats the rule". They forget that the there are alot more to the rules than that.

this is cycling we are talking about, the doping has been and continues to appear to be so prevalent that riders when testing positive are guilty until proven innocent even for minute traces of Clen.

Ofcourse. And that is why I hope it goes to CAS. And then we should taccept any verdic CAS ends up with. If CAS says he is innocent, then he is innocent. If not then he gets his punishment.