Contador acquitted

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Jan 20, 2010
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JMBeaushrimp said:
And yet no willingness to go for a hair-test, not even mentioned.

Without wanting to go any further in the debate until an appeal is either announced or waived because quite frankly the whole argment is circular and repetitive can I just ask about this one point. Is his hair even long enough for a hair test? My understanding is that it needs to be at least 25mm. And further to that even if it is say 30mm now, that if he's had 30mm of growth since July 2010 then it's always going to come up negative? i.e a hair test isn't going to prove or disprove anything.
 
JMBeaushrimp said:
Alright. Let me have it...

images
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Night Rider said:
Without wanting to go any further in the debate until an appeal is either announced or waived because quite frankly the whole argment is circular and repetitive can I just ask about this one point. Is his hair even long enough for a hair test? My understanding is that it needs to be at least 25mm. And further to that even if it is say 30mm now, that if he's had 30mm of growth since July 2010 then it's always going to come up negative? i.e a hair test isn't going to prove or disprove anything.

If it is as you say it is, it was a win-win situation for AC.
He would have grabbed that opportunity by the tits and would have sung from the frikkin Eiffeltower that he had his hair tested and that it came out negative.

I rather line up with Beaushrimp.
I think the hairtest is missing simply because AC knew he could trip over it.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Night Rider said:
Without wanting to go any further in the debate until an appeal is either announced or waived because quite frankly the whole argment is circular and repetitive can I just ask about this one point. Is his hair even long enough for a hair test? My understanding is that it needs to be at least 25mm. And further to that even if it is say 30mm now, that if he's had 30mm of growth since July 2010 then it's always going to come up negative? i.e a hair test isn't going to prove or disprove anything.

I'm betting he's got hair growing on other parts of his body other than just his head. He's a swarthy Spaniard, afterall. I don't think it matters if the carpet matches the drapes...
 
Nov 9, 2010
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JMBeaushrimp said:
"The one-year sanction was a proposal for a sanction made by the examining judge. But she didn't interpret the UCI's regulations correctly, specifically regulation 296 that holds that an athlete should not be sanctioned if they bear no fault or negligence for the presence of the illegal substance in their body."

Actually the judge did do it right. It's up to Clenny to prove otherwise./
+1.

If CAS can sanction Pellizotti without actual proof, surely they will sanction clenboy for the slightest amount of evidence that could suggest doping.
 
JMBeaushrimp said:
"The one-year sanction was a proposal for a sanction made by the examining judge. But she didn't interpret the UCI's regulations correctly, specifically regulation 296 that holds that an athlete should not be sanctioned if they bear no fault or negligence for the presence of the illegal substance in their body."

Actually the judge did do it right. It's up to Clenny to prove otherwise.
Nope. The proposal didn't make any sense. It considered Contador hadn't doped, and that there was no negligence of his own, yet still suspended him for one year. That's not consistent with the WADA code or with the precedents (two years if guilty, one year if positive through "no significant negligence"). Both the proposal and the final decision considered Contador proved it was meat contamination.
"As far as the plasticisers story goes, that came from ARD in Germany first and was then picked up by The New York Times. But in the 2000-page report we got from the Spanish federation there was not one mention of the word plasticisers."

Would it be up to the Spanish fed to disclose the DEHP?
Nope. The Spanish fed received a clen case, not a DEHP case. It's up to the UCI to include it, and legally they couldn't do that - yet.

Contador doped, 99% sure, but you're grasping at straws here.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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hrotha said:
Nope. The proposal didn't make any sense. It considered Contador hadn't doped, and that there was no negligence of his own, yet still suspended him for one year. That's not consistent with the WADA code or with the precedents (two years if guilty, one year if positive through "no significant negligence"). Both the proposal and the final decision considered Contador proved it was meat contamination.

Nope. The Spanish fed received a clen case, not a DEHP case. It's up to the UCI to include it, and legally they couldn't do that - yet.

Contador doped, 99% sure, but you're grasping at straws here.

hrotha;

I've been following all your posts (and the interaction with Index) on the 'aquited' thread. Much appreciate your insight and knowledge of the case.

I was only trying to point out the pedantic issues the press release brings up, as it brings up contentious issues as if they were resolved facts.

Unfortunately the VAST majority of avid fans (and an even more impressive number of fans - myself included), don't understand the issue at the level you do.

I understand the release was couched in terms that are based on the premise that Clenny never doped. Unfortunately, since he popped a pos (not even an AAF) that argument is fundamentally tenuous.

My point was only one that 'you can't believe everything you hear'.

I like your posts - keep the education rolling...
 
The bragging continues : http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contadors-lawyer-weve-got-an-extremely-solid-case?

It's going to be hard for them to sail by the CAS with that type of argument, in essence "it must come from the meat he ate", when they have zero in the way of proof that the meat was tainted or that anyone tested positive for Clen for eating meat in Spain, ever.

You'd think they would have gone out of their way to get people who buy food from that butcher's tested in Cologne or to have meat tested...
 
the verdict of the Spanish federation's competitions committee was published, and that it was done so in English as well as Spanish

If they mean the RFEC report, I never found it published in English. I was able to translate it with Google, but that’s not the same as having a published English version.

The evidence backing up the decision not to ban Contador is available for everyone to see

Can't believe RAmos is still putting out this BS. Any comments about Sanz's admission that the case has weaknesses, Andy?

296. If the Rider establishes in an individual case that he bears No Fault or Negligence, the otherwise applicable period of Ineligibility shall be eliminated.

297. If a License-Holder establishes in an individual case that he bears No Significant Fault or Negligence, then the period of Ineligibility may be reduced, but the reduced period of Ineligibility may not be less than one-half of the period of Ineligibility otherwise applicable

Can any of you lawyers tell me exactly what “significant” means here? If Bert had no fault, what would be an example of no significant fault? Apparently poor Li Fuyu doesn't even get off on the latter rule.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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296. If the Rider establishes in an individual case that he bears No Fault or Negligence, the otherwise applicable period of Ineligibility shall be eliminated.

Has AC done this?

It is not like he went to China or even produced some tainted bottle of vitamins or meat. All he has done is give a possibility that has a statistically low likelihood of happening and no physical evidence.
 
webvan said:
The bragging continues : http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contadors-lawyer-weve-got-an-extremely-solid-case?

It's going to be hard for them to sail by the CAS with that type of argument, in essence "it must come from the meat he ate", when they have zero in the way of proof that the meat was tainted or that anyone tested positive for Clen for eating meat in Spain, ever.

You'd think they would have gone out of their way to get people who buy food from that butcher's tested in Cologne or to have meat tested...

Next it will be the toilet seat.

Dave.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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lean said:
you're too kind :rolleyes:

except there's no need to do such a search. even you seemed to suggest your contribution was mostly irrelevant - this isn't about toxic megadoses and nowhere have i said contamination is impossible, just an unlikely event on top of numerous very unlikely variables in "the official contador story".

the only thing our recent discussions have made clear is that transfusion is far from being disproved and in the case of contamination an animal would have to have been given considerable amounts of the drug and been given very little time for clearing. the necessity for clearing time (if you've done your research ;) ) has been widely understood for a few decades now.
Well I'm glad to see that you've decided to stop focussing on trivialities. :D The point was that someone or other (maybe you) was going on about the practical upper limits of CB levels being in the low ug/kg level and so I merely cited some evidence that this was not the case. I properly stated in my post that these toxicity studies are not directly relevant but merely refute that line of reasoning by establishing an upper boundary for what is possible. Your suggestion that my post is largely irrelevant to the central discussion is itself largely irrelevant since it was clearly directed at steering the discussion away for some baseless flight of fancy.
 
rata de sentina said:
The point was that someone or other (maybe you) was going on about the practical upper limits of CB levels being in the low ug/kg level and so I merely cited some evidence that this was not the case. I properly stated in my post that these toxicity studies are not directly relevant but merely refute that line of reasoning by establishing an upper boundary for what is possible.

I guess I am that someone, and my post was meant to support that contention. To summarize it:

1) To get mg/kg quantities in meat requires mg doses given to animals over a period of time and no withdrawal period;
2) Ir is well known among cattle raisers that a few days of withdrawal can clear most of the CB from the animal, with no effect on the meat/fat ratio that was the original purpose of the CB.
3) Therefore, an animal that is slaughtered with no withdrawal period is likely, IMO, to have died from CB toxicity.

Obviously, I concede your point that some meat of very high contamination gets to the market, but if the only way it gets there is through death of the animal by toxicity, this does set a practical limit, even if that limit is occasionally breached. I believe that even in countries that have no limits on CB in meat there are laws against selling meat from animals that die from disease.
 
Race Radio said:
Has AC done this?

It is not like he went to China or even produced some tainted bottle of vitamins or meat. All he has done is give a possibility that has a statistically low likelihood of happening and no physical evidence.

This is what bothered me the most about the decision made by the Spanish Cycling Federation. I would speculate with the no fault or negligence clause WADA intended there to be a much higher bar for invoking this clause than the evidence that has been presented by Contador so far. I'm hoping CAS will agree with your interpretation of the rule and impose the full two year sanction on Contador.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Exactly, to all the above.

This release struck me as a verbose pile of steaming conjecture-driven PR.

Nothing like a lawyer to make a questionable theory sound like a 'written in stone' fact.
 
Dec 21, 2010
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Clen in China.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2011-03/17/content_12183392.htm

One of the largest & most popular brands of pork meat in China get's done.

If this is picked up in the random sampling of a large producer, I hate to imagine how much clenbuterol & other substances are being used by the smaller producers, struggling to make headway against these large companies.

Money matters in China, and people will do ANYTHING to boost production/value of their products - think of spiking infant milk formula with melamine (scandal in 2009) to boost the nitrogen levels (= higher protein levels)..... Now that is how capitalistic some producers are there.
 
Aug 5, 2009
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296. If the Rider establishes in an individual case that he bears No Fault or Negligence, the otherwise applicable period of Ineligibility shall be eliminated.

Race Radio said:
Has AC done this?

It is not like he went to China or even produced some tainted bottle of vitamins or meat. All he has done is give a possibility that has a statistically low likelihood of happening and no physical evidence.

What Contador and his team did is to try and prove that the only way this could have happened was by eating contaminated meat. They gave four different ways that the clenbuterol could have entered Contador's system. They then ruled out three of the four ways leaving only the fourth, unintentionally injesting a contaminated food.

IMHO, this is pretty faulty logic. You can't prove something by proving that there was no other way for something to happen. You have to prove that the actual event happened.

Imagine if there were four suspects for a murder. You can't prove that one suspect is guilty by ruling out the other three suspects. You have to prove that the fourth suspect actually committed the murder.

Too bad the RFEC bought the faulty logic.
 
Jan 3, 2011
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Apparently the plasticisers-story can finally be put to rest, especially with Bertie offering to freeze sample for the future:

From: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contadors-lawyer-weve-got-an-extremely-solid-case

He also referred to stories stating that Contador had tested positive for plasticisers as well as clenbuterol. "As far as the plasticisers story goes, that came from ARD in Germany first and was then picked up by The New York Times. But in the 2000-page report we got from the Spanish federation there was not one mention of the word plasticisers.

"Alberto has gone further on this issue and said that he is willing to freeze his samples so that they can be tested in future when that plasticisers test has been validated because he is so sure of his innocence."


Nevertheless, the clen case is still up in the air regarding an appeal. I hope it goes to CAS so we can get a final say in the matter.
 
Feb 14, 2010
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I'm not sure that I want to even jump in on this. There's a lot of anger for 50 picograms of Clenbuterol.

The weaknesses Sanz spoke of are like the expression, a chain is only as strong as the weakest link. He didn't mean there were mistakes, but there is more time, effort and money put on some things than others. Contador paid to commission studies and things, but there was a sense of urgency because they had to get them to the RFEC, and wanted the thing settled. They only had ten days to provide more data before the final resolution. They also now have the lawyer who brought free agency to soccer. They have him not speaking to the media, but there's no doubt that he'll be going for a minimum threshold for Clenbuterol and a change in Strict Liability.

Forget the plasticizers. Imagine there's a big case in a court room, where both sides have spent months gathering evidence and questioning witnesses. Then outside the building, there's a guy wearing a mask, hollering about some crime or evidence. Does the judge and jury decide the case based on the anonymous rumor?

I saw one article that mentioned he had 8 times the "normal level". That's not his normal level, or that of a guy well into a three week race who spends hours a day drinking out of a plastic bottle, a TacX Shiva with a special ingredient added to make the plastic break down quicker so the bottle is biodegradable. The last article I saw said that the plasticizer test will be ready for Summer 2012. It also said that in tests of normal people, a transfusion raised their own personal levels of plasticizer to TWENTY times their baseline.

Contador has repeated again, echoed by Ramos, that he has authorized them to freeze his urine and blood until the test is official, and verify away. You'll have your answer in a little over a year, so give it an effing rest for now. This is a legal case, and they don't deal with things that haven't been entered into evidence.

On the hair thing, WADA is the problem. All of the Tour de France samples that went to Lausanne had results returned within 72 hours. The Clenbuterol positive took from July 21 to August 25. Contador wears his hair short and well groomed. He wouldn't have had it cut during the 23 days of the race, but he did have crits after, and he has to look good for appearances and things. If WADA had given the positive before the end of the Tour, he could have done a meaningful hair test.

And news flash - if they wanted a hair sample, they could take one, out of competition. Remember in Spring 2009 when Lance was training in France, and he complained about the doctor clipping his hair, and said he had to have it cut afterward.

It's a part of the sport that we fans question riders, after being burned so many times. This article was a simple clarification of things that I've seen tons of times in Spanish articles, but don't make it inn full into English. He was just trying to get the facts out there. And if a benign article like that incites people to anger, I'd guess that their attitude towards Contador is pretty much the same as it was last July when he rode into Paris.

As for the original proposal of a one year sanction: First of all, we should not have even heard of it. It was to go in a letter to Contador only, with him having ten days to respond, with additional defense arguments. In the proposal, it was agreed that there was no intention to dope, and no performance enhancement. They agreed that Contador was innocent. The precedent had been set with other International cases that due to the Strict Liability rule, the innocent are sanctioned for one year. Found guilty, two years, didn't cheat, one year. Imagine that in your own life, with whatever you might be accused of. Contador's legal team brought the focus back on a couple of paragraphs where the innocent don't have to be punished, just like in real life.
 
Race Radio said:
Has AC done this?

It is not like he went to China or even produced some tainted bottle of vitamins or meat. All he has done is give a possibility that has a statistically low likelihood of happening and no physical evidence.

Ovtcharov didn't produce the tainted meat either. He took a hair follicle test and established that he wasn't using over a known period of time. That's it.

AC went the same rout, just relying on his bio-passport and the slew of non-positive tests over the course of 2010 and during the TdF to establish the same point (and to dismiss the other potential sources of clen getting into his system (i.e., transfusion or micro-dosing).
 
Aug 27, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Has AC done this?

It is not like he went to China or even produced some tainted bottle of vitamins or meat. All he has done is give a possibility that has a statistically low likelihood of happening and no physical evidence.

Erm, if you show tainted vitamin supply, or that you ate a lot of meat in a backwater town in China, don't you show that you DIDN'T take care? I mean shouldn't the athletes be aware that these products might contain bad things?

Isn't the whole point that he did take care, because spanish meat shouldn't have these things, he didn't eat chinese or argentinian steak, he didn't eat shady vitamin supplys, thus he took care!

The "proofs" of these things might be shady, but the arguments that he did take care is valid enough imho.
 
Oct 22, 2009
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English version?

Merckx index said:
If they mean the RFEC report, I never found it published in English. I was able to translate it with Google, but that’s not the same as having a published English version.

I had the same question. I dug through the RFEC website (www.rfec.com) and did some Googling, but could not find an official English version.

It would be nice if the author of the CN article put a link in the article, or posted it here. How about it, Pete?
 
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