Contador acquitted

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Oct 16, 2010
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python said:
i several times above used the word an 'inconclusive' test. yes, they sometimes turn out not as expected by either the tester or the tested... for many reasons - environmental, instrumental, pigmented or bleached hair...whatever.
when one commits to a test expecting a negative result that never was delivered , it's a risk one has to think through considering all the out-of-control circumstances i just described. it would be almost impossible to keep an inconclusive test result away from the media leaks as we've seen plenty of papers don't need much to create a loud story.

so, when i used the word 'dangerous' it was from the point of a legal advisor to contador who who would have to weigh in all these risks against the 'not testing at all' considering, if ramos is to be believed, they claim they already have the needed evidence w/o the hair test.

it's a dangerous world, that's why almost everything is dangerous :D

tanx for the clarification. I get it, and, admittedly, I had overlooked it earlier. Good point and point taken.
I'll now officially stop beefing (pun intended) about the hairtest.
 
I continue you to think you (and the German press) are placing FAR too much emphasis on the hair test. What AC lacks in a singular hair test, he makes up for with a bio-passport and double digit number of blood and urine samples over the course of 2010

I'm sorry, this is BS. When you are accused of something, particularly when you have virtually no direct evidence that you didn't do it, you need all the indirect evidence you can get. It's like saying that someone whose gun doesn't match the murder weapon doesn't need to bother deposing a witness who might support his alibi.

It's even worse in Bert's case, because none of these double digit tests is relevant unless carried out during the period when blood withdrawal most likely would have occurred. And Bert's own words apparently rule that out as far as the blood and urine samples are concerned.

Wrt the hair test, I'm posting here links to a couple of articles I posted previously. The first one reports that CB is found in higher levels in dark-haired people than light-haired people, suggesting Bert would be particularly sensitive to a hair test. The subjects took 10 ug CB, a relatively small dose, daily for 25 days, and the amounts found in dark-haired people exceeded the detection limit by a factor of about 300 (and the detection limit would be lower now). Another relevant finding is that none of the 50 controls had detectable amounts of CB. I think this should go some way to putting to rest fears of testing positive for some trace amount. Very small amounts were found in controls who took a cough medicine, but I presume as an athlete Bert would be careful about taking such medications. In any case, the levels in these subjects were well below those in the experimental group.

http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/reprint/42/11/1869

The second article reports that CB can be detected in hair up to six months after use--probably longer now, since the detection limits are lower.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10080642

We can speculate all we want on why Bert did not submit to a hair test, and whether it would have been a wise thing for him to do so, but the state-of-the-art suggests that at the very least it would have been well worth a try, long after he was notified of his positive, if he really had nothing to hide. Remember, this is the guy who keeps saying, store all my blood and urine samples for future testing. Why should he have to make that offer, if all these current passport and drug tests are sufficient? And why would he be willing to make it, if there were any significant chance of such retroactive tests finding trace amounts of a substance he didn't intentionally take?
 
MI, I appreciate your scientific input into the discussion but yet again you show a huge lack of legal savvy. Publicus's point is very valid from legal strategy point of view. If you cannot or will not understand, then it's to your own detriment.

Now from a PR-point of view AC might have gained hugely from a hair test, but from a legal point of view he is far better off having WADA and UCI argue that their own test don't mean anything. That they won't do naturally and see there the case for them all of a sudden becomes much more difficult. That is not BS, but a sound legal strategy.

Regards
GJ
 
Oct 16, 2010
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GJB123 said:
MI, I appreciate your scientific input into the discussion but yet again you show a huge lack of legal savvy. Publicus's point is very valid from legal strategy point of view. If you cannot or will not understand, then it's to your own detriment.

Now from a PR-point of view AC might have gained hugely from a hair test, but from a legal point of view he is far better off having WADA and UCI argue that their own test don't mean anything. That they won't do naturally and see there the case for them all of a sudden becomes much more difficult. That is not BS, but a sound legal strategy.

Regards
GJ
How do you know? Though I basically agree with you and Publicus, it is still just guessing.
In the end, they may ban him for 2 years because of the missing hairtest.
 
GJB123 said:
Now from a PR-point of view AC might have gained hugely from a hair test, but from a legal point of view he is far better off having WADA and UCI argue that their own test don't mean anything. That they won't do naturally and see there the case for them all of a sudden becomes much more difficult. That is not BS, but a sound legal strategy.

By "own test" I assume you mean the test for CB and the passport. You seem to think that if Bert passed those tests, then WADA/UCI can't possibly argue that those tests don't mean anything. That is your argument, and you say I'm not legally savvy? Hello, the problem is not that the tests don't mean anything, the problem is that the tests are significant in the context of the current case only if carried out in a certain time frame. To continue the analogy with a murder trial, it's not impeaching the credibility of a witness to point out that his testimony is for a date on which the murder wasn't committed. It's just saying that the witness is not useful for this particular purpose.

There's no reason to think Bert took CB for weight loss at any time last year other than between the DL and the Tour, so any negatives on this test at any other time are meaningless, a conclusion totally independent of how good the test is. He might have withdrawn blood more than once, but not very often, so the fact that he passed several passport tests is not in any way a blight on that test (we all know that it's quite limited in detecting blood withdrawals, anyway, but for the purpose of maintaining this charade that you think WADA/UCI have to have in place, I will assume that it is effective when administered close in time to a withdrawal).

You might also ask yourself when has an accused doper ever gained any benefit whatsoever by arguing that this was his first offense--IOW, that he passed tests before. If it has never worked for anyone else, why should it suddenly be a valid legal approach for Bert? Doping cases are not supposed to hinge on the fact that the accused had a clean record in the past--that if he was blood doping once, he must have been blood doping other times,and that therefore not being able to prove prior blood doping strengthens the case of the defendant.

When Heras was busted for EPO a few years ago, did anyone seriously think this was the first time he had taken this substance? Of course not, so in prosecuting the case of a rider who had passed numerous EPO tests before, the ADA had to know that they were announcing to anyone with half a brain (and who wasn't already familiar with the MIllar case) that the EPO test was not a very reliable way of nabbing dopers. I don't recall this "I never tested positive before" defense making their case more dififcult in the slightest. Yet suddenly Bert says, I passed all these passport tests, and we're supposed to roll over and say, by golly, you must have been clean all those times, and therefore you must be clean this time, too?

And even if the tests were a far better indicator than we all in fact know that they are, it would still be a very sound legal strategy to take the hair test. Unless you think you're going to fail it, of course.

Again, you and some others seem to be buying into some very flimsy arguments just because Bert and Andy Ramos want you to. It's becoming more and more apparent that this is all they have, so of course they are emphasizing at every turn how critical these negative tests are, when in fact anyone who stops and thinks for a moment should be able to see that they are essentially meaningless. They don't prove anything.
 
Here is another point addressed to Publicus, GJB, and anyone else who thinks that a series of negative passport tests is a major piece of evidence supporting Bert‘s innocence. We have all been assuming that if Bert did get the CB from a transfusion, the withdrawal almost certainly had to occur between the DL and the Tour. We have also been assuming that if he had a passport test within a few days of the withdrawal, there is a good chance he would have failed the test. But there is a simple way Bert could have beaten any passport: follow the withdrawal immediately with a transfusion to replace the lost cells. The result would have been no net loss of cells, and therefore very little if any perturbation in the parameters the passport measures.

This procedure has another benefit that highly recommends itself to dopers: it allows the rider to regain full strength immediately, with no recovery period. In Bert’s case, this would be particularly important, because of the somewhat narrow window available to him from the end of the DL to the beginning of the Tour. Let‘s suppose he planned to withdraw blood, but not immediately replace it. He wouldn’t want to do it immediately after the DL, because his HT and other blood values would be somewhat low after a week-long stage race. He would want time for them to recover, to maximize the potency of the withdrawn blood. But neither would he want to do it too close to the Tour, because he would need time to recover from the withdrawal to be at full riding strength. And also, he would want to be sure to have recovered to near normal in order to pass the pre-Tour tests. By transfusing immediately following withdrawal, he would greatly expand the window. In particular, he could do this procedure as close to the beginning of the Tour that he wanted.

As has been discussed on this forum previously, there are two ways riders can follow this procedure of immediately replacing withdrawn blood. One is to make an initial withdrawal without replacement in the off-season or early in the season, well before any important races. This blood is then stored, refrigerated, for several weeks, after which another withdrawal is made, and the blood from the first withdrawal transfused to replace the blood lost in the second withdrawal. Further withdrawals are made at regular intervals during the season, each time replacing the blood taken with refrigerated blood from a previous withdrawal. The logic of this is while blood can be stored refrigerated only for a few weeks, constantly putting it back into your body while you take out fresh blood allows you to have fresh blood all the time. In effect, the rider is storing the blood in his body.

As I have described the procedure so far, it doesn’t provide any performance enhancement. All the transfused blood does is replace blood that was withdrawn. When a rider approaches a targeted race, he has to infuse the stored blood without replacing it without a withdrawal. At some point after the race, he would therefore have to make another withdrawal without infusion to restart the cycle. Since the net transfusion/withdrawal is the same, however, recovery should not be much of a problem. The same with the passport test. The rider’s blood parameter values are basically the same a few days after the race as they were before the race.

The main problem is the narrow window when he transfused without withdrawing. But transfusion is much easier to hide from the passport than withdrawal. The main effect of transfusion is to suppress reticulocyte synthesis, but this suppression can be overcome by micro dosing with EPO. The subsequent withdrawal of 500 ml without transfusion would normally be much more difficult to hide, but if the passport at that time is being compared to the passport before the race, there won’t be much of a difference.

In any case, there are ways to reduce further any vulnerability to testing. Suppose the rider initially withdrew 500 ml. of blood, and has been regularly withdrawing/infusing blood in this amount. Before an important race he could transfuse 250 ml, which would still provide a significant performance enhancing effect, while retaining the other 250 ml. Following the race, he could withdraw another 500 ml., and transfuse with the remaining 250 ml. The net effect, over a period of just a couple of days, is still to withdraw and infuse equal amounts of 500 ml., and the effective size of the withdrawal would be reduced.

The other approach is to use frozen cells, a technology surely available to elite riders with economic means. A relatively large amount of blood can be withdrawn during the offseason, when speedy recovery is not so much of an issue, the cells separated from plasma, and used later, after the season begins. Using this technique would allow a rider to skip at least some of the withdrawal/infusion cycles. He would just transfuse some of the frozen cells before every important race. But depending on his schedule, maybe there would not be enough cells. At some point he might find himself with only enough frozen cells for one more transfusion, with much of the season still ahead. In this case, he would withdraw fresh blood, replacing it with the last of the frozen cells, and from that time on use the regular withdrawal/infusion cycle.

Even if Bert, say, thought he had enough frozen cells for use throughout the entire season, he might still have felt that fresh, refrigerated blood would be a little more potent than cells stored for perhaps six months or longer. So for the biggest race of the season, he might have decided to withdraw fresh blood just a couple of weeks in advance, replacing it with frozen cells.

We have no way of knowing whether this happened, of course. But we do know that other riders have used this procedure, so certainly anyone judging Bert’s case has to entertain it as a serious possibility. WADA does not have to prove that Bert did or didn’t use a particular procedure. The burden is on Bert to show that transfusion is not a possible explanation of his CB positive. The fact that he could have withdrawn blood without failing a passport test is a major blow against his attempts to do this. Using this procedure, he could have passed a test not only during the time when he most likely would have withdrawn blood with CB in it, but at any other time during the season or offseason, save that one point when an initial withdrawal was made.
 
May 20, 2010
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Merckx index said:
Here is another point addressed to Publicus, GJB, and anyone else who thinks that a series of negative passport tests is a major piece of evidence supporting Bert‘s innocence....

.... Using this procedure, he could have passed a test not only during the time when he most likely would have withdrawn blood with CB in it, but at any other time during the season or offseason, save that one point when an initial withdrawal was made.

Ta for the insight. Just goes to show that my understanding had (very) considerably underestimated the potential complexity of the withdrawal/reinfusion process.
 
Sep 20, 2009
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Well yes and no.

Until a previously clean top ten finisher at the Tour de France confesses and names names of those who assisted in his cheating we are all surmising!

The problem as I see it is we may have suspicions about cheats but it is not verifiable.

A number of posters claim they "know" but I want to see the gun.

We need testimony or similar from a verifiable source to support claims of the whole peloton is doping.
 
Merckx index said:
As I have described the procedure so far, it doesn’t provide any performance enhancement.

...and if you've made it this far i'm sure you realise that with minor adjustments you can create a nice gradual build up in volume and performance throughout the season. i'd rather not meander down that tangent at the moment tho.

back to the ease with which the passport is defeated.

landis provided a few important puzzle pieces. by microdosing EPO intravenously it becomes almost completely undetectable. the window of detection drops to just a few hours so an athlete can take EPO in the evening with the comfort of knowing that they won't be tested between the hours of 10pm and 6am. by early the next morning the EPO is already close to undetectable levels. so....

an athlete can expect their retics to dip drastically without intervention during this transfusion cycle because the feedback mechanism for natural erythropoesis (oxygen homeostasis) is never triggered. i theorize that naturally occurring erythropoesis slows or almost stops by mid season. the athlete/coach with basic lab equipment (a quality microscope) can easily overcome this hurdle by monitoring their own retics at regular intervals and as they decline can microdose EPO as needed to stay within passport tolerances.

to summarize, i agree with merckx index (again ;)). a "clean" passport means almost nothing in defense of contador.
 
To MI and LMG, there is a snowball's chance in hell that either UCI or WADA will say that a bio passport can easily be defeated. I understand what you are saying and we al agree that the bio passport can be defeated, but they will not be saying that because it would pull the rug out under all bio passport cases of the future and in the process destroy UCI's and WADA's love baby.

Regards
GJ
 
GJB123 said:
To MI and LMG, there is a snowball's chance in hell that either UCI or WADA will say that a bio passport can easily be defeated. I understand what you are saying and we al agree that the bio passport can be defeated, but they will not be saying that because it would pull the rug out under all bio passport cases of the future and in the process destroy UCI's and WADA's love baby.

Regards
GJ
Why not? Ashenden has said that publicly a couple of times. It's no different from standard tests - a negative doesn't prove anything, a positive is a positive.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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GJB123 said:
To MI and LMG, there is a snowball's chance in hell that either UCI or WADA will say that a bio passport can easily be defeated. I understand what you are saying and we al agree that the bio passport can be defeated, but they will not be saying that because it would pull the rug out under all bio passport cases of the future and in the process destroy UCI's and WADA's love baby.

Regards
GJ

good point, but the winner is:

hrotha said:
Why not? Ashenden has said that publicly a couple of times. It's no different from standard tests - a negative doesn't prove anything, a positive is a positive.
 
hrotha said:
Why not? Ashenden has said that publicly a couple of times. It's no different from standard tests - a negative doesn't prove anything, a positive is a positive.

A negative test (which gives a snapshot of that moment) is a ballpark away from the bio passport which is supposed to give a clear indication of (blood) doping over a longer period of time. Now we all know that the blood passport does do very little in that respect or at least can be defeated, but UCI and WADA clearly think otherwise. Don't belive me? Ask Pelizotti.

No surprise however to see sniper chipping in again to demonstrate his total lack of understanding of the issue at hand by a gratuitous "+1".

Regards
GJ
 
Sep 25, 2009
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GJB123 said:
To MI and LMG, there is a snowball's chance in hell that either UCI or WADA will say that a bio passport can easily be defeated. I understand what you are saying and we al agree that the bio passport can be defeated, but they will not be saying that because it would pull the rug out under all bio passport cases of the future and in the process destroy UCI's and WADA's love baby.

Regards
GJ
to have a good handle on the interesting question we need pelli's ruling by cas. that's where the legal precedents where established as it regards blood passport scientific arguments. in the absence of that, at least on the surface i believe your argument makes more sense to me than the alternative.

it really boils down to a choice of simple well established facts and the sufficient evidence to question them.

fact is, contador was not charged with blood transfusion. then the question is why ? if his passport was borderline, then he's gone for 2 years. but from everything we've seen so far, it's probably not the case. can the biopass be beaten? of course, but it's one thing to soft-ball interview and quite another to testify against own research and under a cross-examination by expert witnesses of the accused. in my mind, it boils down to new blood doping evidence (however suggestive) or a legal stalemate.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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GJB123 said:
A negative test (which gives a snapshot of that moment) is a ballpark away from the bio passport which is supposed to give a clear indication of (blood) doping over a longer period of time. Now we all know that the blood passport does do very little in that respect or at least cen be defeated, but UCI and WADA clearly think otherwise. Don't belive me? Ask Pelizotti.

No surprise however to see sniper chipping in again to demonstrate his total lack of understanding of the issue at hand by a gratuitous "+1".


Regards
GJ

gotta give credit where credit is due.

it seems to me (but who am I?) that you're either not understanding or simply not responding to hrotha's remark, which is a crystal clear remark, whereas you're response appears to lack transparency, which laymen such as me so heavily desire.

EDIT: I reread your comment and still don't get what you mean with "A negative test (which gives a snapshot of that moment) is a ballpark away from the bio passport which is supposed to give a clear indication of (blood) doping over a longer period of time". I think with a "negative", hrotha meant exactly that, a negative on the biopassport, indicating (blood) doping over a longer period of time.
 
sniper said:
gotta give credit where credit is due.

it seems to me (but who am I?) that you're either not understanding or simply not responding to hrotha's remark, which is a crystal clear remark, whereas you're response appears to lack transparency, which laymen such as me so heavily desire.

Which part of "A negative test (which gives a snapshot of that moment) is a ballpark away from the bio passport which is supposed to give a clear indication of (blood) doping over a longer period of time. Now we all know that the blood passport does do very little in that respect or at least cen be defeated, but UCI and WADA clearly think otherwise. Don't belive me? Ask Pelizotti." do you not understand? How is that not a clear reply to hrotha's point?

I will rephrase it just for you. A single negative test doesn't proof anything, I agree. Even a few incidental negative tests strung together proof nothing. However we are led to believe that the bio passport is not a string of individual tests but rather a relatively accurate (blood) doping monitor that gives you a clear indication for a certain timeframe as in for weeks or even for months at the time. Therefore if WADA/UCI would now be stating publicly that the bio passport doesn't do exactly what they earlier said, they will be effectively declaring the bio passport null and void. Something I think they will be very reluctant to do.

Clear enough for you?

Regards
GJ
 
Oct 16, 2010
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GJB123 said:
Which part of "A negative test (which gives a snapshot of that moment) is a ballpark away from the bio passport which is supposed to give a clear indication of (blood) doping over a longer period of time. Now we all know that the blood passport does do very little in that respect or at least cen be defeated, but UCI and WADA clearly think otherwise. Don't belive me? Ask Pelizotti." do you not understand? How is that not a clear reply to hrotha's point?

I will rephrase it just for you. A single negative test doesn't proof anything, I agree. Even a few incidental negative tests strung together proof nothing. However we are led to believe that the bio passport is not a string of individual tests but rather a relatively accurate (blood) doping monitor that gives you a clear indication for a certain timeframe as in for weeks or even for months at the time. Therefore if WADA/UCI would now be stating publicly that the bio passport doesn't do exactly what they earlier said, they will be effectively declaring the bio passport null and void. Something I think they will be very reluctant to do.

Clear enough for you?

Regards
GJ

I reread your comment and still don't get what you mean with "A negative test (which gives a snapshot of that moment) is a ballpark away from the bio passport which is supposed to give a clear indication of (blood) doping over a longer period of time". I think with a "positive", hrotha meant exactly that, a positive on the biopassport, indicating (blood) doping over a longer period of time.
hrotha also clearly said that if the Biopassport doesn't provide such a positive, the respective rider may still have doped. And the UCI and WADA also admit to that. So then we're back to what hrotha stated: a negative is not an absolute negative, but a positive is an absolute positive, also in the eyes of the UCI/WADA.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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sniper said:
gotta give credit where credit is due.

it seems to me (but who am I?) that you're either not understanding or simply not responding to hrotha's remark, which is a crystal clear remark, whereas you're response appears to lack transparency, which laymen such as me so heavily desire.
sniper, forget about who said what when and how, let's revist the blood passport premise b/c i feel it's being misinterpreted by the fans on both sides.

the devil as to how contador's passport will figure with cas depends on the detail. general passport premise and the so-far-known evidence appear to favour contador...but, the passport data review will focus on 2-3 specific questions:
(i) was he blood tested within 24-48 hours of his clen-positive ?
(ii) if he was, what are the readings of hg and %rets (with some other supporting indexes) ?
(iii) was there a sufficient delta to suspect a non-physiologic change (to rehash, the blood passport methodology includes the first stage blind computer analysis for a 'flag' before experts are called in)
(if the 'flag' was visible, is it cas's opinion that it's scientifically valid bearing in mind that the flag alone isn't enough to charge blood doping)


these are the kinds of details we simply don't know and any speculation about the passport can go both ways.

edit: decided to add some examples to answer the questions i raised to further my point.

let say, there were no blood tests within the 24-48 hours of the clen positive. then, conti is out of luck. i'd expect cas to conclude that the passport data for 2009 and 2010 (as one expert was quoted in the rfec acquittal document) is irrelevant and that his defence team has not met the standard required to show that he did not dope.
this example illustrates how negative blood passport can be misinterpreted.

another example would deal with the opposite. say bert was lucky and there were blood tests shortly before and after the 21st july. then having no preliminary review 'flags' would strongly favour contador.

and so on.. we don't have much info yet.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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python said:
sniper, forget about who said what when and how, let's revist the blood passport premise b/c i feel it's being misinterpreted by the fans on both sides.

the devil as to how contador's passport will figure with cas depends on the detail. general passport premise and the so-far-known evidence appear to favour contador...but, the passport data review will focus on 2-3 specific questions:
(i) was he blood tested within 24-48 hours of his clen-positive ?
(ii) if he was, what are the readings of hg and %rets (with some other supporting indexes) ?
(iii) was there a sufficient delta to suspect a non-physiologic change (to rehash, the blood passport methodology includes the first stage blind computer analysis for a 'flag' before experts are called in)
(if the 'flag' was visible, is it cas's opinion that it's scientifically valid bearing in mind that the flag alone isn't enough to charge blood doping)


these are the kinds of details we simply don't know and any speculation about the passport can go both ways.

edit: decided to add some examples to answer the questions i raised to further my point.

let say, there were no blood tests within the 24-48 hours of the clen positive. then, conti is out of luck. i'd expect cas to conclude that the passport data for 2009 and 2010 (as one expert was quoted in the rfec acquittal document) is irrelevant and that his defence team has not met the standard required to show that he did not dope.
this example illustrates how negative blood passport can be misinterpreted.

another example would deal with the opposite. say bert was lucky and there were blood tests shortly before and after the 21st july. then having no preliminary review 'flags' would strongly favour contador.

and so on.. we don't have much info yet.

good post.

Therefore, as long as we can only speculate, I like to elaborate on common sense and put faith in my limited and slightly romanticized sense of justice.
To that extent, many here seem to agree: AC did not eat contaminated meat, and should be stripped of his Tour 2010 title.

And since AC's still making millions, he does not really have a reason to stop juicing, which is why he will again be a good contender for this year's Tour.
 
GJB123 said:
To MI and LMG, there is a snowball's chance in hell that either UCI or WADA will say that a bio passport can easily be defeated. I understand what you are saying and we al agree that the bio passport can be defeated, but they will not be saying that because it would pull the rug out under all bio passport cases of the future and in the process destroy UCI's and WADA's love baby.

Regards
GJ

Ironic that you rave about how clever the legal strategy of Bert’s lawyers is, while implying that any counsel that might be retained by WADA/UCI are complete morons. Bert’s team managed to convince RFEC, and apparently many who read its report, that he ate contaminated meat, despite nearly zero evidence in support of that conclusion. But you can’t seem to imagine how other lawyers might attack the negative passport tests without damaging the credibility of the passport system itself.

Let me help you. So Bert passed all these passport tests, indicating that he wasn’t withdrawing or transfusing regularly during the past months or years. OK, so what about June, which is when the withdrawal almost certainly would have occurred? Was there a passport test during the period between the DL and the TDF? If not, and Bert’s own statements suggest probably not, then he could have withdrawn blood then, and nobody would have known. First time in his life he ever did that. He had been this super-clean rider all his life, always passing passport tests, but this one time, he cheated. Not like those bad guys Pellizotti and Caucchioli, who were blood doping regularly, just the kind of dopers the passport is designed to catch.

Since this was his first and only time, you can’t argue that there would be long-term effects picked up in subsequent passport tests. You also can’t protest that if he were transfusing he would have been doing regular withdrawals and transfusions, because by the rules of the game as you see them, WADA wouldn’t want to admit the existence of a practice that could consistently foil their tests. In fact if he weren’t doing it that way, any withdrawals/transfusions almost certainly would have been rare events, reserved for special occasions--like the TDF. So this is a very reasonable argument that WADA could make, without implying that the passport test is useless.

What if he were tested in June? Depending on when during the month he was tested, he still could have beaten the test. The test could have occurred before he withdrew blood, or long enough after that his parameters had returned to normal or near-normal. In fact, there isn’t a date anywhere during that period when he couldn’t have beaten a test, if he had withdrawn at some appropriate other time. Of course, he might have had to be a little lucky, but nowhere near as blessed with good luck as he was cursed with bad luck, eating meat from apparently the only contaminated steer in all of Spain.

WADA could also argue he used frozen cells to replace the blood withdrawn. This would be an accusation that he withdrew blood sometime in the past, and also suggestive of the idea of regular withdrawals and transfusions. Still, probably most riders can‘t afford the equipment to separate cells from plasma and freeze them, so WADA could argue that this is not a major means of getting around the passport. And since he could have done this withdrawal just once, during the offseason, it would be easy to argue that it could have been missed by previous passport tests.

let say, there were no blood tests within the 24-48 hours of the clen positive. then, conti is out of luck. i'd expect cas to conclude that the passport data for 2009 and 2010 (as one expert was quoted in the rfec acquittal document) is irrelevant and that his defence team has not met the standard required to show that he did not dope.

This is the short answer, which GJB seems reluctant to accept.

another example would deal with the opposite. say bert was lucky and there were blood tests shortly before and after the 21st july. then having no preliminary review 'flags' would strongly favour contador.

Agreed. Again, transfusion is much easier to hide than withdrawal, and it's certainly possible he could have beaten a blood test during this period, but in the framework of GJB's argument that WADA is reluctant to admit this, a negative test would certain count for something.
 
Oct 22, 2009
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sniper said:
I think with a "negative", hrotha meant exactly that, a negative on the biopassport, indicating (blood) doping over a longer period of time.

I think I see the confusion. You are saying "negative" when you mean "positive." A "negative" means a clean test, i.e., no evidence of doping.
 
Merckx index said:
Ironic that you rave about how clever the legal strategy of Bert’s lawyers is, while implying that any counsel that might be retained by WADA/UCI are complete morons. Bert’s team managed to convince RFEC, and apparently many who read its report, that he ate contaminated meat, despite nearly zero evidence in support of that conclusion. But you can’t seem to imagine how other lawyers might attack the negative passport tests without damaging the credibility of the passport system itself.

Let me help you. So Bert passed all these passport tests, indicating that he wasn’t withdrawing or transfusing regularly during the past months or years. OK, so what about June, which is when the withdrawal almost certainly would have occurred? Was there a passport test during the period between the DL and the TDF? If not, and Bert’s own statements suggest probably not, then he could have withdrawn blood then, and nobody would have known. First time in his life he ever did that. He had been this super-clean rider all his life, always passing passport tests, but this one time, he cheated. Not like those bad guys Pellizotti and Caucchioli, who were blood doping regularly, just the kind of dopers the passport is designed to catch.

Since this was his first and only time, you can’t argue that there would be long-term effects picked up in subsequent passport tests. You also can’t protest that if he were transfusing he would have been doing regular withdrawals and transfusions, because by the rules of the game as you see them, WADA wouldn’t want to admit the existence of a practice that could consistently foil their tests. In fact if he weren’t doing it that way, any withdrawals/transfusions almost certainly would have been rare events, reserved for special occasions--like the TDF. So this is a very reasonable argument that WADA could make, without implying that the passport test is useless.

What if he were tested in June? Depending on when during the month he was tested, he still could have beaten the test. The test could have occurred before he withdrew blood, or long enough after that his parameters had returned to normal or near-normal. In fact, there isn’t a date anywhere during that period when he couldn’t have beaten a test, if he had withdrawn at some appropriate other time. Of course, he might have had to be a little lucky, but nowhere near as blessed with good luck as he was cursed with bad luck, eating meat from apparently the only contaminated steer in all of Spain.

WADA could also argue he used frozen cells to replace the blood withdrawn. This would be an accusation that he withdrew blood sometime in the past, and also suggestive of the idea of regular withdrawals and transfusions. Still, probably most riders can‘t afford the equipment to separate cells from plasma and freeze them, so WADA could argue that this is not a major means of getting around the passport. And since he could have done this withdrawal just once, during the offseason, it would be easy to argue that it could have been missed by previous passport tests.



This is the short answer, which GJB seems reluctant to accept.



Agreed. Again, transfusion is much easier to hide than withdrawal, and it's certainly possible he could have beaten a blood test during this period, but in the framework of GJB's argument that WADA is reluctant to admit this, a negative test would certain count for something.

You keep going on about me needing to understand that the bio passport can be beaten as if I have stated otherwise at any time. Apparently you lack some reading skills. Let me make it even more clear to you: I fully understand that the bio passport can be beaten. I am even willing to entertain the thought that AC has done so. The problem is going about proving that point and WADA/UCI would the ones needing to proof that.

Given the very difficult task AC's legal team had, establishing food contamination without the beef being available for testing, they did a sterling job imho. Their strategy, like it or not, created a problem for UCI/WADA. As with any problem, a solution is always possible, but it won't come easy and bears a significant risk for their bio passport program, like it or not. This may well lead to them not wanting to appeal at all or could result in them losing the appeal, like it or not.

Regards
GJ
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Speedzero said:
I think I see the confusion. You are saying "negative" when you mean "positive." A "negative" means a clean test, i.e., no evidence of doping.

ow, damn, i think you're right. tanx. quelle blamage. just changed it.
 
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