Contador and Valverde

[BroDeal]

That would not be Armstrong. He used Dr. Ferrari.

Although Armstrong was a client of Dr. Ferrari, that does not mean Ferrari was the one storing blood and such. Postal/Disco were rumored to use the services of ex-team ONCE doctors...

Ullrich was a client of Dr. Cecchini but was using Fuentes for blood storage. Basso falls into the same category.

 

[Anonymous]

I have read that there is a Spanish rider, I forget which one, who has the nickname "cowboy" because of his usual hand gestures as he crosses the line when he wins. I do not mean Contador.

there is also as i stated on a previous thread sven montgomery

whos nickname WAS the cowboy

some very impressive mountain performances in 2001, nicknamed the cowboy in the press, and rode for ahem... gerolsteiner along with david rebellin..

when you consider the name, the team and the company he is just as likely as the others..

 

[auscyclefan94]

Mr Anti-Cadel Angliru

Surely if my posts were pro-Evans you would be singing a different tune but apparently you are so blinded by your allegiance to Evans that any opinion that is anything less than a genuflection to the greatness of Cadel is of no value to you.

Angliru, why are you so anti-cadel? he's a great rider and a great guy. you cant's say that he's doped because he's up in the top 2 in le tour for the last 2 years. from what i know you are from michigan which is obviously in america. America doesn't have the greatest records for doping riders

 

[Angliru]

Angliru, why are you so anti-cadel? he's a great rider and a great guy. you cant's say that he's doped because he's up in the top 2 in le tour for the last 2 years. from what i know you are from michigan which is obviously in america. America doesn't have the greatest records for doping riders

I don't see how my being American has anything to do with whether I like a rider or not.
Also I don't base my opinions on a rider's nationality especially not necessarily favoring American riders. If anything I favor the pure climber types regardless of their nationality.
I'm actually not "anti" any rider. There are riders that rub me the wrong way for whatever reasons and as you noticed Evans is one of them. It just so happens that he often makes quotes that end up sounding, to me, as if he's blaming others for his own shortcomings instead of just accepting that someone else was the better man on a particular day. Leipheimer is probably the only rider that comes close to Evans on my "list" of riders that annoy me.

My reference to Evans and T-Mobile's internal drug program is just as valid as any reference to a former Kelme, Once, Cofidis, or Festina rider would be. I don't know him personally so I can and do only comment on what I see for myself, an opinion that I am entitled to. I never said that he is doped now or even in the past only that he can't be any more above suspicion than any other rider that once rode for any of the above mentioned teams.

I think I've stated why Evans isn't one of my favorites in previous posts if you would like to do a search to see what was stated. We can't all be on the same page and support the same riders. Certainly there are riders that I'm a fan of that you likely don't care much for, whatever your reasons may be. There is no reason to be mad that someone has on opinion on a rider that may be contrary to your own.

 

[powderpuff]

I think I've stated why Evans isn't one of my favorites in previous posts if you would like to do a search to see what was stated. We can't all be on the same page and support the same riders. Certainly there are riders that I'm a fan of that you likely don't care much for, whatever your reasons may be. There's no reason to be mad that someone has an opinion on a rider contrary to your own.

I vouch for you; on you stating Cadel isn't one of your favourites but I can see you slowly turning the corner ... hopefully before his career ends.

My reference to Evans and T-Mobile's internal drug program is just as valid as any reference to a former Kelme, Once, Cofidis, or Festina rider would be. I don't know him personally I can and do only comment on what I see for myself, an opinion that I am entitled to. I never said that he is doped now or even in the past only that he can't be any more above suspicion than any other rider that once rode for any of the above mentioned teams.

I think you are also correct on this too. I believe he is clean and would never ask him to prove his innocence. I also don't care to accuse other people on pure hear-say. It annoyed me more at DL that AC and AV were working together while on opposing teams than the fact that both of them had been implicated in doping scandals. They were there and racing so you have to race them; let the authorities worry about the other sh&t.

 

[sherer]

you know what really annoys me about OP. When the story first broke we were told this went through all sports including football and players of Real Madrid and Barca but so far the only names out in the public domain are cyclists

 

[msjett]

I agree Angliru, we aren't all fans of the same riders. How boring would this place be if we were? It's the differing opinions that make it interesting.

 

[elapid]

I'm actually not "anti" any rider. There are riders that rub me the wrong way for whatever reasons and as you noticed Evans is one of them. It just so happens that he often makes quotes that end up sounding, to me, as if he's blaming others for his own shortcomings instead of just accepting that someone else was the better man on a particular day.

I think I've stated why Evans isn't one of my favorites in previous posts if you would like to do a search to see what was stated. We can't all be on the same page and support the same riders. Certainly there are riders that I'm a fan of that you likely don't care much for, whatever your reasons may be.

My only criticism, and please take it as constructive, is that you seem overly critical of some of the things Evans has said. Yes, he has done and said stupid things. But his quotes that started this thread are really not that significant.

 

[auscyclefan94]

My reference to Evans and T-Mobile's internal drug program is just as valid as any reference to a former Kelme, Once, Cofidis, or Festina rider would be. I don't know him personally so I can and do only comment on what I see for myself, an opinion that I am entitled to. I never said that he is doped now or even in the past only that he can't be any more above suspicion than any other rider that once rode for any of the above mentioned teams.

I think I've stated why Evans isn't one of my favorites in previous posts if you would like to do a search to see what was stated. We can't all be on the same page and support the same riders. Certainly there are riders that I'm a fan of that you likely don't care much for, whatever your reasons may be.

It is stupid to make a reference to a rider(s) who are formally on other teams and call them drug cheats. If that was to be the case we would have 100's of dopers in the peleton which is ludicrous. With Festina their was evidence against the riders to say that their was a doping ring and later admissions (richard virenque). i don't see your point on contraction of cadel but i recognise and respect your point of view and your understanding of cycling

 

[Angliru]

I vouch for you; on you stating Cadel isn't one of your favourites but I can see you slowly turning the corner ... hopefully before his career ends.


I think you are also correct on this too. I believe he is clean and would never ask him to prove his innocence. I also don't care to accuse other people on pure hear-say. It annoyed me more at DL that AC and AV were working together while on opposing teams than the fact that both of them had been implicated in doping scandals. They were there and racing so you have to race them; let the authorities worry about the other sh&t.

The fewer interviews he does the better chance he'll have of making your hopes become reality.

Now the Valverde/Contador working together theory I have to differ with you on. It appeared to me that Contador was simply shadowing Evans at every turn, measuring his effort versus Evans. It just so happens that this also benefited Valverde and likely Gesink and all the other riders that trailed along.
Its not uncommon for teams and riders to have common objectives that may of course be in opposition to another team/rider's. Its just part of cycling.

 

[auscyclefan94]

totally agree with elapid

My only criticism, and please take it as constructive, is that you seem overly critical of some of the things Evans has said. Yes, he has done and said stupid things. But his quotes that started this thread are really not that significant.

Not everyone is perfect and you are overly critical of cadel (angliru). he is not perfect and does need to learn to calm down, but none of the other cyclists are perfect in what they say especially after the amount of pain they have been through after the stage.in all of our lives we sometimes say things we regret. if cadel could calm down and relax a bit he would be great but he doesn't say that much bad stuff. the qoute "i'll cut your head off" was taken totally out of context and was said in a jokingly way in which the press laughed that has happened a lot to cadel

 

[auscyclefan94]

Now the Valverde/Contador working together theory I have to differ with you on. It appeared to me that Contador was simply shadowing Evans at every turn, measuring his effort versus Evans. It just so happens that this also benefited Valverde and likely Gesink and all the other riders that trailed along.
Its not uncommon for teams and riders to have common objectives that may are of course being in opposition to another team/rider. Its just part of cycling.

you say evans has it both ways but contador is having it both ways by coming 2nd in the prologue and 5th approx in the tt and then you say he has a different objective to not win the dauphine. before mont ventoux he was riding hard but after mont ventoux he was riding for valverde and proof of this is after the descent in to the stage into grenoble when valverde put his arm around him to congratulate him. that's not cycling. if you know paul sherwen or phil liggett they have agreed with me on many of their points.

 

[Angliru]

It is stupid to make a reference to a rider(s) who are formally on other teams and call them drug cheats. If that was to be the case we would have 100's of dopers in the peleton which is ludicrous. With Festina their was evidence against the riders to say that their was a doping ring and later admissions (richard virenque). i don't see your point on contraction of cadel but i recognise and respect your point of view and your understanding of cycling

...and you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I think that you are offended that I've lumped Evans in with the rest of the T-Mobile crew from that 2 year period. I never said that he was or was not doped. I said that by virtue of his being on that team and that team having a system of juicing their riders that he shouldn't be beyond suspicion... and let me add-- for that period of his career. This is MY opinion. Until I hear you arguing for other riders that are similarly being lumped in by other posters with Kelme, Once, Cofidis, Festina etc... and not just Evans then I will just take it as you selectively enforcing your beliefs.

I don't think I clearly understand the first part of your final sentence but ditto on the last part.

 

[powderpuff]

Its just part of cycling.

Yep I know it... I said it was annoying but the reason was because (I know the situation was slightly different) when Cadel was looking for someone help go after Sastre in the TdF they just sat back; they cared less about themselves losing their chance at winning than than they did of giving Cadel a chance of winning. Had they already conceded that they were out of the running for the race win? (I don't mean the Schleck boys)

At the DL, I think Cadel constantly attacking was as much testing himself as it was testing his opponents. His objective this and the past 2 years has been the TdF and anything else was a bonus. Anyway, all things point to a very interesting TdF.

 

[auscyclefan94]

It is also like saying that wiggins is a doper because he was with cofidis or cavendish is a doper because he use to rode with t - mobile. you can up with many conspiricies but that is all they are with no evidence. In the last sentence i was referring to your thread about cadel's contradiction that i disagree with your point about him contradicting himself because i think contador has (at the dauphine) contradicted himself not cadel!!!

 

[Angliru]

you say evans has it both ways but contador is having it both ways by coming 2nd in the prologue and 5th approx in the tt and then you say he has a different objective to not win the dauphine. before mont ventoux he was riding hard but after mont ventoux he was riding for valverde and proof of this is after the descent in to the stage into grenoble when valverde put his arm around him to congratulate him. that's not cycling. if you know paul sherwen or phil liggett they have agreed with me on many of their points.

Contador rarely attacked, as is his norm, during the entire Dauphine. This tells me that he was not there for the win. All of this is speculation of course because we can never know exactly what a riders/teams intentions are for a particular race. We can only judge what we see on the road, filter what quotes are given and come to our own conclusions which even then are just speculation. It appeared to me that Contador was using the Dauphine as simply training. Maybe his form was such that the effort we saw was the best he could muster or as he stated prior and during the event, that he was not going to stress himself about the overall. The fact that his riding was more reflective of someone conserving his energies as opposed to launching attacks to better his position in the overall, led me to believe that he was doing as he was quoted in the press.

One can read alot into a brief image of a rider patting another rider on his back. If you noticed there was absolutely no reciprocation or acknowledgement by Contador when this occurred unless the telecast I watched missed showing a reaction from Contador. We can only guess why this was. Could it have been because Contador was simply riding his own race and by doing so he assisted Valverde? I hope you aren't thinking that had Valverde not been able to react each time to the attacks that Contador would have in turn dropped from Evans' wheel and waited for Valverde.
I don't believe this would have been the case but of course this is once again just my opinion.

 

[39*23t]

on the evans issue take a look at the 94 tour team

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_teams_and_cyclists_in_the_2004_Tour_de_France

out of nine riders their at least six of them have been linked, admitted or caught doping (not to sure about ivanov).if evans was not doping at telekom then he at least knew what was going on.
as for ac and piti. ac was there to guage himself against evans using minimal effort. Hence he rode the tt hard since that would be his weakness against him and let valverde go to see how evans would chase. Evans also had the opportunity to work with gesink in limiting valverde but choose to play a waiting game which only backfired on him when he did decide to chase Evans lost the race because of his own tactics and a possible ally in rabobank. not because of ac and valverde

 

[powderpuff]

on the evans issue take a look at the 94 tour team

if evans was not doping at telekom then he at least knew what was going on.

I think you mean 2004.

In 2004 Cadel was lucky to know what the team was doing, as he was always the last one to know anything. He trained in Switzerland and usually only linked with the team at a few training days, races or official functions. Do we start accusing Aerts of doping too, Cadel brought him to SIL as part of the deal? Or is he too far down the pecking order to worry about.

 

[Angliru]

My only criticism, and please take it as constructive, is that you seem overly critical of some of the things Evans has said. Yes, he has done and said stupid things. But his quotes that started this thread are really not that significant.

Actually I think you're referring to another thread that I started that referenced quotes attributed to Contador and Evans. This thread is based on the Contador/Valverde union against Evans at the Dauphine controversy if I'm not mistaken but I'll respond to your message as it relates to my posts and to the thread where the quotes were the basis ("Cadel's Contradiction" I think was the title).

In their context I took them as significant since they referenced one of his primary competitiors for this event and the Tour. Both riders voiced their objectives for the event. Evans was put in a position where he had to defend his position in the race and when questioned about Contador's objectives, felt that they were simply an excuse in case of failure. Mind games maybe on both sides and with no real response from Contador its possible that he took no signifcance in what was said or decided to let his response be his actions on the road. Who knows? Riders are well known for using certain races as training races for other targeted events and saying so in the press. I personally just found it odd that Evans as a top flight pro who has used this same strategy would openly criticize another rider for something that he and many others do on a regular basis.

 

[elapid]

Actually I think you're referring to another thread that I started that referenced quotes attributed to Contador and Evans. This thread is based on the Contador/Valverde union against Evans at the Dauphine controversy if I'm not mistaken but I'll respond to your message as it relates to my posts and to the thread where the quotes were the basis ("Cadel's Contradiction" I think was the title).

In their context I took them as significant since they referenced one of his primary competitiors for this event and the Tour. Both riders voiced their objectives for the event. Evans was put in a position where he had to defend his position in the race and when questioned about Contador's objectives, felt that they were simply an excuse in case of failure. Mind games maybe on both sides and with no real response from Contador its possible that he took no signifcance in what was said or decided to let his response be his actions on the road. Who knows? Riders are well known for using certain races as training races for other targeted events and saying so in the press. I personally just found it odd that Evans as a top flight pro who has used this same strategy would openly criticize another rider for something that he and many others do on a regular basis.

Sorry about the thread mix-up. My mistake. I get what you're saying, but I also think that we all make contradictory statements particularly when they are days apart and taking into account the events that transpire in between. Like making a mountain out of a molehill. One thing I was contemplating this this morning was that it would be good if reporters had to include the previous 10-20 seconds of tape when the interviewee makes a stupid remark. How many of these statements, Evans or anyone else, are made completely out of context? Anyway, again sorry about the wrong thread, and it is probably best to agree to disagree.

 

[Angliru]

Sorry about the thread mix-up. My mistake. I get what you're saying, but I also think that we all make contradictory statements particularly when they are days apart and taking into account the events that transpire in between. Like making a mountain out of a molehill. One thing I was contemplating this this morning was that it would be good if reporters had to include the previous 10-20 seconds of tape when the interviewee makes a stupid remark. How many of these statements, Evans or anyone else, are made completely out of context? Anyway, again sorry about the wrong thread, and it is probably best to agree to disagree.

You're oh so very right about the entirety of an interview rarely being included in the final copy. You're probably right in that I am likely overly critical of Evans as a whole. I need to probably count to ten before posting most of my messages.

No problem about the mixup. My posts tend to be on the long side and I often get lost in what was the original topic. The level of intellect on this forum is pretty high based on what I've read in some of the posts so I'm just trying to get my little 2 cents in and hope that I don't get lambasted too badly in response!

 

[BroDeal]

It is stupid to make a reference to a rider(s) who are formally on other teams and call them drug cheats. If that was to be the case we would have 100's of dopers in the peleton which is ludicrous.

Yes, ludicrous...

It is not like the lab at Lausanne studied the 2007 TdF samples and esitmated that 80% of the riders were using HGH or testosterone. That is 140 riders right there.

 

[auscyclefan94]

why follow cycling???

on the evans issue take a look at the 94 tour team

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_teams_and_cyclists_in_the_2004_Tour_de_France

out of nine riders their at least six of them have been linked, admitted or caught doping (not to sure about ivanov).if evans was not doping at telekom then he at least knew what was going on.

firstly, may i ask why you follow the sport if you think that alot of the top riders are dopers? how would cadel know if they were doping when he was injured for majority of the year and din't ridethe tour. if you think most of the riders are doping then it's al level playing field. it will be who can find the best doctor to help assist blood doping. surely some of these riders would know that the epo and blood doping will have long term effects on them. in an interview at the tour in 2005 he felt that he didn't fit in with the culture at t-mobile so went to lotto. he also felt that the mangement at lotto believed in him to do great things at their team.

 

[karlboss]

i think many GC hopefuls get to DL with a wait and see attitude. Don't know how hard any of them push until they have a real chance. Evans was almost there and had a dig, Valverde has no other objective, AC wasn't quite there so didn't. Ac was interesting in testing his form so rode a steady fast pace behind evans as he attacked dragging himself back up. Good test for a GC hopeful. Valverde benefitted from a high steady pace, so what? Thats racing. I don't think evans was whinging, just pointing out how hard it was to drop valverde when contador rode as he did. I'm sure AC knew what he was doing was helping another spaniard and was probably happy for the fact. Would have loved to see Cadel win, but once again thats racing.

 

[thehog]

ivals on the bike and friends outside the races, the three men who have brought Spanish cycling to the top of the world ranking have had a golden season. Alberto Contador, Alejandro Valverde and Samuel Sánchez shared the stage yesterday in the first edition of the City of Oviedo Criterium. The winner of the Tour de France, the victor of the Vuelta a España and the rider who lifted high the gold medal at the Olympics in Beijing outdid one another with praise, but they celebrated the current sweet moment in Spanish cycling even more.

*Rivals on the bike and friends outside the races, the three men who have brought Spanish cycling to the top of the world ranking have had a golden season. Alberto Contador, Alejandro Valverde and Samuel Sánchez shared the stage yesterday in the first edition of the City of Oviedo Criterium. The winner of the Tour de France, the victor of the Vuelta a España and the rider who lifted high the gold medal at the Olympics in Beijing outdid one another with praise, but they celebrated the current sweet moment in Spanish cycling even more.

*The three aces acknowledge it. “We’re at the apex, the three highest-ranking cyclists in the world are Spaniards, because every time, the passion makes people crazier with excitement, and riders notice that.” The words of Alberto Contador, seconded by his two amigos. Sánchez believes that cycling is “a sport that gives great happiness” to the country, while Valverde thinks that this is a moment “to enjoy.”

*Still savoring the season, they’re talking and thinking about the future. Contador’s is still up in the air. “The next week will be important after the communiqué from the UCI, we’ll have to see if it’s really true that I’m free,” said the Astana cyclist. One person who has renewed with the Kazakh team is his faithful lieutenant Benjamin Noval. Alberto can’t avoid smiling when he is asked if Noval’s commitment will tip the balance toward continuing with Astana himself. “For me, it’s very important that he re-upped, we’ll see how things turn out, but it will end well,” confessed Contador between laughs. One thing that doesn’t worry these three men is the fact that their teams have not appeared on the first list of ProTour teams for the 2010 season, something they describe as “simple administrative formalities.”


Both Contador and Valverde praised Samuel Sánchez, for whom the day also served as a tribute, defining him as a “great friend, a great champion and an amazing rider.” Yesterday’s victory went to Oviedo’s own Sánchez, but in a true cycling fiesta, the triumph was less important. They are the best in the world, and they are Spanish.