Contador blasts LA

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Scott SoCal said:
I don't think he could go. So what?

And that is why you don't know what the hell you are talking about. It's one thing if he just couldn't go, but that wasn't what transpired. Lance created the opportunity for Frank to get away. It's really as simple as that. If you can't understand that, and the implications that followed, then there really is nothing further to discuss.

So let's just move on to something more meaningful shall we?
 
Jayarbie said:
I don't think that there was a rift between Contador and Kloden. Contador and Lance/Bruyneel sure, but Kloden has not exactly been a faithful Lance ally over the years. I think it was just a mistake by Contador, plain and simple. No malicious intent, just something that happens, especially for younger riders. If that situation comes up again, I doubt that Contador would make that acceleration in that spot.

fulcrum said:
I think you are ignoring the fact that Kloden was squarely aligned with Lance's camp, and had already been actively helping Lance prior to that stage. I am not saying it was personal, but Kloden definitely knew whose orders he needed to follow.

I have the impression that Kloden was squarely caught in the middle. Popo was solid Lance man and Paulinho for AC. I imagine most of the rest were going "what the f*** is going on, we've never done it this way before?"
 
Scott SoCal said:
Was that a partial concession that AC maybe should not have attacked then? Just seein' if we are making any progress.

Not at all. I've never said it was a great tactical move. I said I understood the move. I said that the fact that Kloden went out the back was unfortunate, but irrelevant. I said that Kloden and Lance's podium positions were irrelevant. All of that is still true. Don't think it was a great tactical move, but I understand it.

And you still haven't answer the question: why was Lance so angry? Nothing happened to the MJ and he (the MJ) strengthened his hold on the MJ vis a vis Wiggins. And before you say out of concern for Kloden, remember, Lance was in no way concerned about Kloden's podium position on Arcalis, Verbier, Col de Romme or Ventoux. Ok, so let's focus on that question: why was Lance so angry?
 
Hugh Januss said:
I have the impression that Kloden was squarely caught in the middle. Popo was solid Lance man and Paulinho for AC. I imagine most of the rest were going "what the f*** is going on, we've never done it this way before?"

LOL. That's probably very true. Tough place to be I imagine between two alpha-males.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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Scott SoCal said:
What else is he going to say after JB told him no attack was necessary? He attacks and buries Kloden on the stage (intent unknown), then throws him under the bus at interview time. Class act.

So Klodi's in the red. He's probably of the opinion that two mates together are better than one by himself at that point, why would he tell AC to go? It's senseless.

And they probably both of them should have waited for Lance's return...:rolleyes:
 
Jul 6, 2009
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Publicus said:
What the hell are you talking about? How is the Schleck Brothers together better than having one isolated down the road with Wiggins (and thus unable to attack unless he can get away without bringing everyone) and one isolated with your strongest rider? How in your scenario do you get back to 3 Astana riders? The Schleck Brothers set a pace that only Alberto could handle (relatively) comfortably, as evidence by Kloden blowing up on the Colombiere. And Armstrong was 3:00 minutes down at one point with Wiggins.

Am I missing something?

You don't get it, do you? Before AC attacked that dropped AK, they were just about 1:37 ahead of LA and BW. This for LA is very manageable.

But after AC attacked, then the motivation for AS and FS were to distance LA and the others, and that's why it grew to more than 3 minutes. Keep in mind that AC kept on looking back because he is nervous of being left with the 2 Schlecks, and he did not help them at all.

How nervous would they have been in the company of the 3 Astana riders?
What would have happened is this: 3 Astana and 2 SB riders in the front. Do you think the Schlecks would attack them? No, they could very well just ride together and keep BW behind, then fight it out among themselves for the stage win. However, it the winnder would not have mattered as they would most likely all end up with the same time.

Remember that at this point Kloden would have been #3 and Lance #2. Wiggins would have dropped to 5th or 6th, and AS 4th, and FS maybe 5th.

Why can you not see that?
 
padyakpinoy said:
You don't get it, do you? Before AC attacked that dropped AK, they were just about 1:37 ahead of LA and BW. This for LA is very manageable.

But after AC attacked, then the motivation for AS and FS were to distance LA and the others, and that's why it grew to more than 3 minutes. Keep in mind that AC kept on looking back because he is nervous of being left with the 2 Schlecks, and he did not help them at all.

How nervous would they have been in the company of the 3 Astana riders?
What would have happened is this: 3 Astana and 2 SB riders in the front. Do you think the Schlecks would attack them? No, they could very well just ride together and keep BW behind, then fight it out among themselves for the stage win. However, it the winnder would not have mattered as they would most likely all end up with the same time.

Remember that at this point Kloden would have been #3 and Lance #2. Wiggins would have dropped to 5th or 6th, and AS 4th, and FS maybe 5th.

Why can you not see that?
This is why it's a mistake to consolidate these threads. Now we're off on some tangent (a good and interesting one), but all the earlier other interesting discussions have died. :mad:
 
padyakpinoy said:
You don't get it, do you? Before AC attacked that dropped AK, they were just about 1:37 ahead of LA and BW. This for LA is very manageable.

But after AC attacked, then the motivation for AS and FS were to distance LA and the others, and that's why it grew to more than 3 minutes. Keep in mind that AC kept on looking back because he is nervous of being left with the 2 Schlecks, and he did not help them at all.

How nervous would they have been in the company of the 3 Astana riders?
What would have happened is this: 3 Astana and 2 SB riders in the front. Do you think the Schlecks would attack them? No, they could very well just ride together and keep BW behind, then fight it out among themselves for the stage win. However, it the winnder would not have mattered as they would most likely all end up with the same time.

Remember that at this point Kloden would have been #3 and Lance #2. Wiggins would have dropped to 5th, and FS 4th.

Why can you not see that?

Oh, I see. A couple of points, the Schlecks were putting massive time into ALL of their rivals for podium positions, except Contador. Contador's attack didn't have anything to do with their goal (they wanted as much time as possible).

AC kept looking back because he was checking to see if Kloden was going to bridge back. He wasn't that far down the hill at one point, but once he blew, he blew. And given that he attacked the Schlecks, I don't think he was nervous at all. Just worried about his teammate (seemed genuine to me, but I'm clearly biased).

Your supposition that Lance could bridge to those 3 is pure speculation on your part. It was clearly better for the team if Frank was back with Armstrong and Wiggins. Andy would have been extremely nervous about being isolated with two Astana riders. That's not what happened though. The leaders were steadily building a lead on the Colombiere because they were riding faster than Wiggins and Armstrong. So the gap wasn't holding at 1:37, and thus Lance couldn't easily bridge over.

So I see the point you are trying to make, but it's a pretty weak case if you ask me.
 
Jul 6, 2009
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Publicus said:
Oh, I see. A couple of points, the Schlecks were putting massive time into ALL of their rivals for podium positions, except Contador. Contador's attack didn't have anything to do with their goal (they wanted as much time as possible).

AC kept looking back because he was checking to see if Kloden was going to bridge back. He wasn't that far down the hill at one point, but once he blew, he blew. And given that he attacked the Schlecks, I don't think he was nervous at all. Just worried about his teammate (seemed genuine to me, but I'm clearly biased).

Your supposition that Lance could bridge to those 3 is pure speculation on your part. It was clearly better for the team if Frank was back with Armstrong and Wiggins. Andy would have been extremely nervous about being isolated with two Astana riders. That's not what happened though. The leaders were steadily building a lead on the Colombiere because they were riding faster than Wiggins and Armstrong. So the gap wasn't holding at 1:37, and thus Lance couldn't easily bridge over.

So I see the point you are trying to make, but it's a pretty weak case if you ask me.

Remember also at this point Saxo Bank was also concerned about BW? And remember what happened on St16? LA was able to drop BW, Sastre, Evans, etc and catch up to AC & company? He was sizing himself up, to see if he could bridge a gap, and he did.

But still, that attack was not necessary as it will only distance AC and the Schlecks from LA and/or BW. But BW has been neutralized by LA.

The mistake was by AC. He did not wait for LA to join them, and he would not have dropped AK.
 
Jul 6, 2009
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fulcrum said:
Oh yeah, can you explain to all of us how lack of motivation caused Lance to finish behind Andy Schleck in the GC?

And once you are done with that, are you going to explain to us how you are going to fit AC, AK, and LA in the same podium with AS being ahead of LA?

Unreal!

By this time, it would be hard for LA to overcome AS of the 1:29 deficit. The motivation would have been to maintain GC position if LA would have gotten 2nd place.

Sure he could have tried, but then he would jeopardize his 3rd place.

All Astana riders would have been highly motivated to maintain their 1-2-3 places after St17!
 
padyakpinoy said:
Remember also at this point Saxo Bank was also concerned about BW? And remember what happened on St16? LA was able to drop BW, Sastre, Evans, etc and catch up to AC & company? He was sizing himself up, to see if he could bridge a gap, and he did.

But still, that attack was not necessary as it will only distance AC and the Schlecks from LA and/or BW. But BW has been neutralized by LA.

The mistake was by AC. He did not wait for LA to join them, and he would not have dropped AK.

1. I understood Saxo Bank's tactics. They were gaining time on ALL of their rivals, independent of Contador's attack. Contador's attack did not hurt or change their goals. Why you don't see that is beyond me.

2. On Stage 16, Saxo shut off the gas after two things happened (1) Jens Voigt accelerated and dropped Frank and (2) heard that Armstrong was bridging up. Once they were unable to maintain a gap, it was no use going full gas with the downhill finish and Stage 17 on the horizon. Lance was dropped on 16 because he couldn't stay with the move. It wasn't because he was sizing anything up. After blowing up Verbier, he realized that he had to ride his tempo (a la Sastre).

3. The attack, if successful, would have put more time into EVERYONE, including Wiggins, Armstrong and the Schleck Brothers. He was going for a grand slam. Didn't need to, but it was his decision. How much time his teammates lose as a result of his attack is irrelevant. He was the MJ, the strongest rider on the team, and that's ALL that mattered in the scheme of things. Not how much time Armstrong lost.

4. In what world would the MJ and strongest rider on a team wait for a dropped teammate? :eek: The goal is to gain time on your rivals, not minimize time gaps to your teammates. Step back and reconsider your comment that AC should have "waited" for LA. As for Kloden, I don't know if he wouldn't have been dropped no matter what. He wasn't doing any work on Contador's behalf (never covered an attack or let Contador ride in his slipstream). He was barely holding AC's wheel. Again, AK's time losses are irrelevant to the team goal.

5. Lance made a mistake in letting Frank go. That's indisputable. It wasn't part of some master plan. It was a mistake. All of the suppositions and conditional statements doesn't change that fact.
 
Apr 24, 2009
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Publicus said:
Not at all. I've never said it was a great tactical move. I said I understood the move. I said that the fact that Kloden went out the back was unfortunate, but irrelevant. I said that Kloden and Lance's podium positions were irrelevant. All of that is still true. Don't think it was a great tactical move, but I understand it.

And you still haven't answer the question: why was Lance so angry? Nothing happened to the MJ and he (the MJ) strengthened his hold on the MJ vis a vis Wiggins. And before you say out of concern for Kloden, remember, Lance was in no way concerned about Kloden's podium position on Arcalis, Verbier, Col de Romme or Ventoux. Ok, so let's focus on that question: why was Lance so angry?


A) I don't think Armstrong was the only one who was "angry" at the move; B) Right or wrong, I suspect that the AC attack was just one more in a series of actions--many of which we would be unaware--by AC that were perceived as selfish and against the interests of the team.

Again, I am not agreeing that perception was correct--only that there were obviously a lot of things going on behind the scenes that came to a head in the pressure cooker conditions of the Tour.
 
Apr 24, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
99 pages of threads in just under 24 hours!

Come on people, more bickering! More hair-splitting. We can get to 100 yet!

It beats looking for a job.
 
Publicus said:
1. I understood Saxo Bank's tactics. They were gaining time on ALL of their rivals, independent of Contador's attack. Contador's attack did not hurt or change their goals. Why you don't see that is beyond me.

2. On Stage 16, Saxo shut off the gas after two things happened (1) Jens Voigt accelerated and dropped Frank and (2) heard that Armstrong was bridging up. Once they were unable to maintain a gap, it was no use going full gas with the downhill finish and Stage 17 on the horizon. Lance was dropped on 16 because he couldn't stay with the move. It wasn't because he was sizing anything up. After blowing up Verbier, he realized that he had to ride his tempo (a la Sastre).

3. The attack, if successful, would have put more time into EVERYONE, including Wiggins, Armstrong and the Schleck Brothers. He was going for a grand slam. Didn't need to, but it was his decision. How much time his teammates lose as a result of his attack is irrelevant. He was the MJ, the strongest rider on the team, and that's ALL that mattered in the scheme of things. Not how much time Armstrong lost.

4. In what world would the MJ and strongest rider on a team wait for a dropped teammate? :eek: The goal is to gain time on your rivals, not minimize time gaps to your teammates. Step back and reconsider your comment that AC should have "waited" for LA. As for Kloden, I don't know if he wouldn't have been dropped no matter what. He wasn't doing any work on Contador's behalf (never covered an attack or let Contador ride in his slipstream). He was barely holding AC's wheel. Again, AK's time losses are irrelevant to the team goal.

5. Lance made a mistake in letting Frank go. That's indisputable. It wasn't part of some master plan. It was a mistake. All of the suppositions and conditional statements doesn't change that fact.

All of that is true, but unfortunately it is not a convincing arguement to the people who believe that Lance should have been allowed to push his way into a team and designate himself co-leader. That is all the fault of one guy and his name is Bruyneel. However first and third on the podium would have been an awesome result still if they only could have kept the histrionics quiet and the majority of the blame for that is on LA's shoulders.
 
Jul 6, 2009
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Publicus said:
1. I understood Saxo Bank's tactics. They were gaining time on ALL of their rivals, independent of Contador's attack. Contador's attack did not hurt or change their goals. Why you don't see that is beyond me.

2. On Stage 16, Saxo shut off the gas after two things happened (1) Jens Voigt accelerated and dropped Frank and (2) heard that Armstrong was bridging up. Once they were unable to maintain a gap, it was no use going full gas with the downhill finish and Stage 17 on the horizon. Lance was dropped on 16 because he couldn't stay with the move. It wasn't because he was sizing anything up. After blowing up Verbier, he realized that he had to ride his tempo (a la Sastre).

3. The attack, if successful, would have put more time into EVERYONE, including Wiggins, Armstrong and the Schleck Brothers. He was going for a grand slam. Didn't need to, but it was his decision. How much time his teammates lose as a result of his attack is irrelevant. He was the MJ, the strongest rider on the team, and that's ALL that mattered in the scheme of things. Not how much time Armstrong lost.

4. In what world would the MJ and strongest rider on a team wait for a dropped teammate? :eek: The goal is to gain time on your rivals, not minimize time gaps to your teammates. Step back and reconsider your comment that AC should have "waited" for LA. As for Kloden, I don't know if he wouldn't have been dropped no matter what. He wasn't doing any work on Contador's behalf (never covered an attack or let Contador ride in his slipstream). He was barely holding AC's wheel. Again, AK's time losses are irrelevant to the team goal.

5. Lance made a mistake in letting Frank go. That's indisputable. It wasn't part of some master plan. It was a mistake. All of the suppositions and conditional statements doesn't change that fact.

Great! You finally saw my point in #3 above. You said AC didn't need to! That's exactly my point! That was his mistake, not for himself, but for his teammates. If he didn't have LA and AK as teammates, then that attack was not a mistake!

That's what I've been saying all along: AC did not have to attack to be able to help his teammates get to #2 and #3 positions! Thank you for seeing my point.

Lance later said that, in retrospect, he should have followed FS. Maybe if he knew AC would act selfishly, he would have stayed with them, instead of being the teammate in marking BW for AC.
 
Apr 24, 2009
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Publicus said:
5. Lance made a mistake in letting Frank go. That's indisputable.


I like how people continue to argue against something that Armstrong actually admitted to.

I think in this case we can take his word for it.
 
padyakpinoy said:
Great! You finally saw my point in #3 above. You said AC didn't need to! That's exactly my point! That was his mistake, not for himself, but for his teammates. If he didn't have LA and AK as teammates, then that attack was not a mistake!

That's what I've been saying all along: AC did not have to attack to be able to help his teammates get to #2 and #3 positions! Thank you for seeing my point.

Lance later said that, in retrospect, he should have followed FS. Maybe if he knew AC would act selfishly, he would have stayed with them, instead of being the teammate in marking BW for AC.

LOL. I didn't agree with your ultimate point as demonstrated through points 1-5. AC shouldn't have been concerned about AK or LA's GC spots. He was the MJ. He is focus, as was the team, was to maximize time gains against the other GC candidates. Not to get AK or LA on the podium. And that's what I wrote in point #3.

Lance made a freaking mistake. Admitted he made a mistake. AC was the MJ and LA knew, as a former MJ wearer, that AC would pick up time on his rivals where he could, without any serious consideration of the time losses his teammates might endure. What part of team leader, MJ and strongest rider don't you get?
 
Jun 18, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
99 pages of threads in just under 24 hours!

Come on people, more bickering! More hair-splitting. We can get to 100 yet!

cyclingnews has to be tickled pink if they base their ad cost on page hits.
 
Jul 6, 2009
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Publicus said:
LOL. I didn't agree with your ultimate point as demonstrated through points 1-5. AC shouldn't have been concerned about AK or LA's GC spots. He was the MJ. He is focus, as was the team, was to maximize time gains against the other GC candidates. Not to get AK or LA on the podium. And that's what I wrote in point #3.

Lance made a freaking mistake. Admitted he made a mistake. AC was the MJ and LA knew, as a former MJ wearer, that AC would pick up time on his rivals where he could, without any serious consideration of the time losses his teammates might endure. What part of team leader, MJ and strongest rider don't you get?

Yes, he made a mistake, only because he did not realize it then how selfish this AC is. He admitted that he should have followed FS, only in retrospect.

Again, if that was AC's thinking (to gain on his rivals), why did he not set the pace in front of AS and FS to be able to distance La and AK more? Because he told the 2 he has teammates at the back. There, he still has a role to play as teammates of AK and LA, to be able to minimize the gains of the Schlecks on them. That's why he just followed. At that point he suddenly was playing a good teammate, after realizing his mistake. Which, as rumor have it, AC did apologize to the team afterwards.
 
A

Anonymous

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Alpe d'Huez said:
99 pages of threads in just under 24 hours!

Come on people, more bickering! More hair-splitting. We can get to 100 yet!

100?.........................

Edit: I posted thinking I might cross the line first and BANG. You can call me the Cav of cyclingnews forums. Suck it Thor! Any of you punks go back and delete a post so that I am relegated and I will certainly twitter like hell about it!
 
Jul 6, 2009
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padyakpinoy said:
Great! You finally saw my point in #3 above. You said AC didn't need to! That's exactly my point! That was his mistake, not for himself, but for his teammates. If he didn't have LA and AK as teammates, then that attack was not a mistake!

That's what I've been saying all along: AC did not have to attack to be able to help his teammates get to #2 and #3 positions! Thank you for seeing my point.

Lance later said that, in retrospect, he should have followed FS. Maybe if he knew AC would act selfishly, he would have stayed with them, instead of being the teammate in marking BW for AC.

No, you don't get it at all. It was a mistake only because it weakened HIS position (by dropping a teammate). Contador's GC position was the ONLY one that mattered. This 1-2-3 boloney is a bunch of crap. Contador (and Astana as a whole) needed to be concerned only with winning the Tour, not worrying about where their 2nd and 3rd riders were placed. It was a mistake because it left HIM isolated with the 2 most dangerous riders to his GC standing (because they would work together agaisnt him, not because Frank was actually a threat).

This also why Armstrong failing to properly mark Frank was a mistake as well, and a huge one. It left Contador with TWO strong Saxo riders to deal with instead of one. If Armstrong had marked Frank, Frank would not have been able to bridge because it would have been worse for Saxo to have both Armstrong and Frank in the lead group than both in the chase group, so Frank would NOT have dragged Lance back to the lead group.

Contador's attack opening the gap did not hinder Armstrong from bridging, either. He DID try to attack Wiggins lower on the slopes (after Armstrong let Frank go but before Contador's attack widened the gap), but Wiggins followed the first attack and Armstrong HAD to ease off. It wasn't until near the summit that Armstrong was able to get rid of Wiggins, and even if the gap was still under 2 minutes, there's no way he could have bridged it. He made up less than a minute on the downhill chase.

There's a lot about this stage that you clearly do not understand. It's best that you just concede to Publicus on this. He has the situation nailed dead on.
 
padyakpinoy said:
Yes, he made a mistake, only because he did not realize it then how selfish this AC is. He admitted that he should have followed FS, only in retrospect.

Again, if that was AC's thinking (to gain on his rivals), why did he not set the pace in front of AS and FS to be able to distance La and AK more? Because he told the 2 he has teammates at the back. There, he still has a role to play as teammates of AK and LA, to be able to minimize the gains of the Schlecks on them. That's why he just followed. At that point he suddenly was playing a good teammate, after realizing his mistake. Which, as rumor have it, AC did apologize to the team afterwards.

After Kloden dropped? Why would he help them put more time into his teammates who were chasing to get back on? He wasn't limiting their gains, so much as not helping them gain more time. There's a difference you know. So again, not sure what the point is you are trying to make.

I get that you think Contador should have been looking out for his teammates the entire day, but that wasn't the case. He was riding defensively most of the day, put in one attack, that ultimately failed to dislodge the Schleck Brothers, but did dislodge his teammate. After that he continued to ride defensively. There is no controversy here.

I'm getting off this merry go round.
 
Jul 6, 2009
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padyakpinoy said:
Yes, he made a mistake, only because he did not realize it then how selfish this AC is. He admitted that he should have followed FS, only in retrospect.

Again, if that was AC's thinking (to gain on his rivals), why did he not set the pace in front of AS and FS to be able to distance La and AK more? Because he told the 2 he has teammates at the back. There, he still has a role to play as teammates of AK and LA, to be able to minimize the gains of the Schlecks on them. That's why he just followed. At that point he suddenly was playing a good teammate, after realizing his mistake. Which, as rumor have it, AC did apologize to the team afterwards.

No, Jesus Christ are you stupid. He didn't keep driving because the two Schlecks marked the attack but Kloden didn't. Now he was isolated 1-on-2 in a situation that was dangerous to HIS GC standing and you want him to burn himself out pacing the lead group so the Schelck could follow and attack in tandem once he tired himself out? How f-ing stupid is that?!?