Contador blasts LA

[padyakpinoy]

just a remainder:

Final Classification:
1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 85:48:35
2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:04:11
3 Lance Armstrong (USA) Astana 0:05:24
4 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Garmin - Slipstream 0:06:01
5 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:06:04
6 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 0:06:42
Stage 20:
1 Juan Manuel Garate Cepa (Spa) Rabobank 4:39:21
2 Tony Martin (Ger) Team Columbia - HTC 0:00:03
3 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:00:38
4 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana
5 Lance Armstrong (USA) Astana 0:00:41
6 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:00:43
10 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Garmin - Slipstream 0:01:03
11 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Silence - Lotto 0:01:39
12 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 0:01:42
Stage 18
1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 0:48:31
2 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Team Saxo Bank 0:00:03
6 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Garmin - Slipstream 0:00:42
9 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 0:00:53
16 Lance Armstrong (USA) Astana 0:01:29
Stage 17
1 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 4:53:54
2 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana st
3 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank st
4 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas 0:02:18
5 Lance Armstrong (USA) Astana 0:02:18
6 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 0:02:27

CAN EVERYONE MAKE THE GODDAMN MATH AND REALIZE IN WHICH STAGE DID
kLODEN "REALLY" LOST HIS PODIUM CHANCES ONCE FOR ALL?
AND LASTLY: I HAVEN'T HEARD FROM KLODEN HIMSELF B!TCHING ABOUT NOT MAKING THE PODIUM-SO WHY LANCE FANSBOYS ARE ENTITLE TO DO SO?
JUST SO F*CKING SICK OF STUPIDITY LIKE THAT.....

If AK would have known that he has a very realistic chance of being on the podium, then it woiuld have motivated him a lot more! MO-T-I-V-A-T-I-O-N! That is your hidden strength. Why do you think Evans and Sastre dropped all the way out of the top ten? They lost all motivation.

Letting FS bridge to AK and AC, (with AS) is just a perfect situation to play into LA and Bruyneel's hands. Imagine going 3 vs 2? The Schlecks would not have paced the group and put distance on AK and AC. At this point the main objective of Astana was eliminating BW and put them in a very good position for 1-2-3!

The final time difference were now irrelevant because for AK, he has lost motivation, and was just maintaining his position.
Do you honestly believe that on Stage 17, would the time gained on AK and LA by the Schlecks be more than 2 minutes if 3 Astana riders were on the front?

AC's stupid move put the Schlecks in front vs him, and that gave them motivation to distance the next group of AK, AC, and Wiggins. Of course he only has to follow?

What would the Schlecks have done then if AC, AK, and LA were with them? They would only have worked to distance Wiggins, and not among each other!

That is the selfishness of AC!

 

[Publicus]

on Ventoux, in the last 5k, AC spends 2k at one stretch riding Lances wheel, 4th in line. He's getting a breather so he can counter the last attack by Andy which he knows is coming.

and lance was in the 3 in front on stage 7 making tempo when Alberto jumped them.

2 out the 3 uphill finishes I believe.

Lance was never in the front setting tempo on Stage 7. Not once. He rode up to Cadel Evans' wheel and then Kloden went to the front and slowed the tempo. Contador blasts past Armstrong, then Evans, then Kloden and the other Silence Lotto rider.

Not one time did Lance put work in for Contador. Nor did he thank Contador for the work he did for him on Ventoux.

 

[fulcrum]

If AK would have known that he has a very realistic chance of being on the podium, then it woiuld have motivated him a lot more! MO-T-I-V-A-T-I-O-N! That is your hidden strength. Why do you think Evans and Sastre dropped all the way out of the top ten? They lost all motivation.

Letting FS bridge to AK and AC, (with AS) is just a perfect situation to play into LA and Bruyneel's hands. Imagine going 3 vs 2? The Schlecks would not have paced the group and put distance on AK and AC. At this point the main objective of Astana was eliminating BW and put them in a very good position for 1-2-3!

The final time difference were now irrelevant because for AK, he has lost motivation, and was just maintaining his position.
Do you honestly believe that on Stage 17, would the time gained on AK and LA by the Schlecks be more than 2 minutes if 3 Astana riders were on the front?

AC's stupid move put the Schlecks in front vs him, and that gave them motivation to distance the next group of AK, AC, and Wiggins. Of course he only has to follow?

What would the Schlecks have done then if AC, AK, and LA were with them? They would only have worked to distance Wiggins, and not among each other!

That is the selfishness of AC!

Oh yeah, can you explain to all of us how lack of motivation caused Lance to finish behind Andy Schleck in the GC?

And once you are done with that, are you going to explain to us how you are going to fit AC, AK, and LA in the same podium with AS being ahead of LA?

Unreal!

 

[fulcrum]

on Ventoux, in the last 5k, AC spends 2k at one stretch riding Lances wheel, 4th in line. He's getting a breather so he can counter the last attack by Andy which he knows is coming.

Dude, you are kidding right? How is going 3rd in line setting the tempo?

You are starting to waste my time with moronic arguments like that.

 

[Anonymous]

Damn, did this dude just come out from under a rock? We've discussed these points ad nauseam. What is a bonked Kloden going to do for a crashed Contador... Go Dr. Mengele on him and fix the collarbone? What if it has a mechanical... Contador is going to need a wheel, so the time is lost no matter what, he could get one from Kloden or from race organization. If he gets it from Kloden, then Kloden is without the wheel, so Contador is still on his own. Kloden couldn't work for shit anyway so it wouldn't have been a great aid downhill.

Maybe he should have waited for a full Formula 1 team uphill, so they can change both wheels in under 6 seconds in case he has a flat. And a trained ER group too, just in case...

Yeah. AC don't need no stinkin' team. Or help. Just attack. Klodi's ability to pass a wheel or pace if AC bonked.. Because you know that kind of stuff never happens. Not in bike racing. Never. Nope. AC had everything under control. How utterly stupid of me.

 

[Publicus]

If AK would have known that he has a very realistic chance of being on the podium, then it woiuld have motivated him a lot more! MO-T-I-V-A-T-I-O-N! That is your hidden strength. Why do you think Evans and Sastre dropped all the way out of the top ten? They lost all motivation.

Letting FS bridge to AK and AC, (with AS) is just a perfect situation to play into LA and Bruyneel's hands. Imagine going 3 vs 2? The Schlecks would not have paced the group and put distance on AK and AC. At this point the main objective of Astana was eliminating BW and put them in a very good position for 1-2-3!

The final time difference were now irrelevant because for AK, he has lost motivation, and was just maintaining his position.
Do you honestly believe that on Stage 17, would the time gained on AK and LA by the Schlecks be more than 2 minutes if 3 Astana riders were on the front?

AC's stupid move put the Schlecks in front vs him, and that gave them motivation to distance the next group of AK, AC, and Wiggins. Of course he only has to follow?

What would the Schlecks have done then if AC, AK, and LA were with them? They would only have worked to distance Wiggins, and not among each other!

That is the selfishness of AC!

What the hell are you talking about? How is the Schleck Brothers together better than having one isolated down the road with Wiggins (and thus unable to attack unless he can get away without bringing everyone) and one isolated with your strongest rider? How in your scenario do you get back to 3 Astana riders? The Schleck Brothers set a pace that only Alberto could handle (relatively) comfortably, as evidence by Kloden blowing up on the Colombiere. And Armstrong was 3:00 minutes down at one point with Wiggins.

Am I missing something?

 

[balkou]

Andy Schleck.

Not only Andy. Lance would have been 5th if Kloeden had finished with the top 3 riders. And with the 45'' added after the ITT, the podium would have been out of reach.

 

[fulcrum]

Yeah. AC don't need no stinkin' team. Or help. Just attack. Klodi's ability to pass a wheel or pace if AC bonked.. Because you know that kind of stuff never happens. Not in bike racing. Never. Nope. AC had everything under control. How utterly stupid of me.

Of course it can happen. The question is what are the time loses if they do happen and how do you measure those against the team leader's prerogative to attack AT THE END of a stage.

A flat would have cause time to AC, with or without Kloden, regardless.

And Kloden could not keep up with Lance and Nibali. What makes you believe he would have made any difference what so ever pacing AC?

 

[Anonymous]

My thoughts, he had just put another 1:45 into Andy the day before. He had padded his lead, which is what he was trying to do on Stage 17 (take time on your rivals when you can). On Saturday, 1st and 2nd were decided. Andy was trying to set up Frank. So Contador just followed his wheel. No need to attack, because he had an insurmountable lead. More to the point, he had specifically said he was going to help Lance secure his podium position. Attacking Andy would have put Lance in a world of hurt and worked to Frank's advantage.

Now, do you understand how Stage 17 was different? Why it hurt Kloden more to have two Saxo Bank riders at the front, than just one? That Lance Armstrong's inattentiveness was the reason that Frank was able to bridge over? Armstrong did the right thing AFTER the fact (and I think he was thinking correctly trying to force Wiggins to do the pace making), but he still created the opening that allowed Frank to get away. I don't think this is even an arguable point.

Your argument for not attacking on the Ventoux is my argument for not attacking on Stage 17. AC is the better TT'ist than either of the Schlecks. He did not need more time. All he had to do was exactly what he did on the Ventoux. Mark the Schlecks and get a ride to the line, which, after his attack, is what he did.

Lance didn't have to go after Frank and probably could'nt anyway. LA HAD to mark Wiggins. He did that. You are just wrong about LA blowing it not going with FS.

 

[Publicus]

Yeah. AC don't need no stinkin' team. Or help. Just attack. Klodi's ability to pass a wheel or pace if AC bonked.. Because you know that kind of stuff never happens. Not in bike racing. Never. Nope. AC had everything under control. How utterly stupid of me.

LOL. Get him Scott! All of these potential things that didn't happen, but could have happened. I'm surprised Contador left the team bus that morning!

In all seriousness, a number of things could have happened that day, but didn't. Kloden could have gone out the back regardless of what Contador did, we don't know. Or he could have survived if it was just him, Contador and AS. Again, we don't know.

AC did have everything that he could control, under control. He knew he felt good enough to attack, so he wasn't worried about "bonking". If he had a puncture, then he would lose time, but he would lose time if AK was there. It seems to me that you are just intent on portraying AC as a non-team player. Which just isn't the case. Best tactical move? No, not by any stretch of the imagination. An indefensible move, no, not at all. No amount of projecting your preferred tactics will change what happen.

And no one has yet to explain why Lance Armstrong was so ****ed. AC gained time on Wiggins and didn't expend a tremendous amount of energy in the process. Everything else (Lance's podium position, or Kloden's) was irrelevant.

 

[fulcrum]

Your argument for not attacking on the Ventoux is my argument for not attacking on Stage 17. AC is the better TT'ist than either of the Schlecks. He did not need more time.

Oh yeah he did. Given the situation within his team and how close Kloden was to him in the GC, he needed all the time he got.

 

[Hugh Januss]

OK Lets try this.
FACTS as I see them.
FACT #1 AC had a hissy fit after Vuelta last year whinning about Levi not helping him enough in Vuelta or Tour.
FACT #2 LA ever since he announced his return, has been a Tweetering Twit pointing out in public everthing bad that AC may or may not have done.
FACT #3 Levi while seeming to be more or less supportive of AC still took the time to point out a teammate'smisstakes in public.
FACT #4 Lance went from "I'll be a good domestique" to "a team can have more than one leader" the closer it got to race day.
FACT #5 AC realising that LA was going to ride for himself and quite possibly had Bruyneel solidly in his corner rode completely for himself.

I am not saying if any of these actions are right or wrong.
Does anyone have a problem with agreeing that these are the facts of the situation?

 

[balkou]

Where have you heard or read Kloeden was not upset? I'm not buying that take.

Are you trying to rewrite facts? Contador claimed immiedetely that he informed Kloeden about his move and the German agreed. If Contador was lying I guess there would have been a reaction and that would have been all right. But there weren't any. It's not what you buying or not...

 

[Anonymous]

Of course it can happen. The question is what are the time loses if they do happen and how do you measure those against the team leader's prerogative to attack AT THE END of a stage.

A flat would have cause time to AC, with or without Kloden, regardless.

And Kloden could not keep up with Lance and Nibali. What makes you believe he would have made any difference what so ever pacing AC?

You are assuming neutral support would be right there and/or team car. Not ALWAYS the case. So you are saying it was a good thing Klodi wasn't there at the end? BTW, 15k downhill to the finish. Not exactly Verbier or Ventoux.

Question. If comfortably leading the TdF, with only a few stages remaining, with those stages remaining suiting your abilities better than those of your rivals, your rivals around you, nearing the end of a hard stage with a finish that does not suit your characteristics, are you better off isolated or with a teamate?

 

[Publicus]

Your argument for not attacking on the Ventoux is my argument for not attacking on Stage 17. AC is the better TT'ist than either of the Schlecks. He did not need more time. All he had to do was exactly what he did on the Ventoux. Mark the Schlecks and get a ride to the line, which, after his attack, is what he did.

Lance didn't have to go after Frank and probably could'nt anyway. LA HAD to mark Wiggins. He did that. You are just wrong about LA blowing it not going with FS.

By your argument, he should have never attacked then. He was ALWAYS leading the Schlecks in this race. Ventoux was the last stage of the race, his position was solidified and Andy wasn't racing for it (not too seriously any way). Totally different situation than Stage 17.

Again, you miss the point about Frank Schleck and Lance Armstrong, but I think that's because you can't accept that it played a role in the outcome of Stage 17. Once he was dropped, it was a moot point and he was going to lose big time as a result of it. It was his mistake though that strengthened Andy's hand at the front, contributed to Kloden's bonking and resulted in him dropping from 2nd to 4th.

Just one last point, if Frank wasn't of concern for Armstrong, why was he marking him on every attack on the Col de Romme? He didn't mark Sastre. Or Andy Schleck. Just Frank. Until he caught looking at his shoes he was very concerned with him. At least on my tee vee

 

[Publicus]

OK Lets try this.
FACTS as I see them.
FACT #1 AC had a hissy fit after Vuelta last year whinning about Levi not helping him enough in Vuelta or Tour.
FACT #2 LA ever since he announced his return, has been a Tweetering Twit pointing out in public everthing bad that AC may or may not have done.
FACT #3 Levi while seeming to be more or less supportive of AC still took the time to point out a teammate'smisstakes in public.
FACT #4 Lance went from "I'll be a good domestique" to "a team can have more than one leader" the closer it got to race day.
FACT #5 AC realising that LA was going to ride for himself and quite possibly had Bruyneel solidly in his corner rode completely for himself.

I am not saying if any of these actions are right or wrong.
Does anyone have a problem with agreeing that these are the facts of the situation?

Why do I recall that the bolded comment was a result of a mistranslation? I remember that being an initial flutter about the comment, but it died down pretty quickly. Maybe I'm confusing it with another situation....

 

[Anonymous]

Are you trying to rewrite facts? Contador claimed immiedetely that he informed Kloeden about his move and the German agreed. If Contador was lying I guess there would have been a reaction and that would have been all right. But there weren't any. It's not what you buying or not...

What else is he going to say after JB told him no attack was necessary? He attacks and buries Kloden on the stage (intent unknown), then throws him under the bus at interview time. Class act.

So Klodi's in the red. He's probably of the opinion that two mates together are better than one by himself at that point, why would he tell AC to go? It's senseless.

 

[fulcrum]

When analyzing Alberto's attack to Kloden, people need to start thinking in terms of reality and not standard team strategy or podium 1-2-3 aspirations.

These "teammates" where barely in speaking terms with Alberto, who had been betrayed several times by then, so in reality, Kloden was no longer a teammate in Alberto's mind. He was wearing the same Astana jersey, but was not a teammate.

You need to look at it from that perspective to understand Alberto's decision making. Alberto didn't consider JB his DS. It was Lance's DS. And that attack was a big middle finger to that Disney trademark podium 1-2-3 finish strategy. To Lance and to JB.

Of course, the 1-2-3 strategy didn't really have the goal of putting 3 guys in the podium. It had the goal to slow and control Contador. Make sure he wouldn't attack in benefitial areas to him, in hopes that Lance could pull a good ITT in Annecy or have a super day in Mt. Ventoux. That's why they changed the stated goal from "winning the MJ" to "podium 1-2-3".

The 1-2-3 strategy was doomed from the beginning, because Lance couldn't beat AS.

Applying standard race logic to that rotten situation is like trying to utilize kindergarten teaching techniques to reform inmates in St. Quintin.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Why do I recall that the bolded comment was a result of a mistranslation? I remember that being an initial flutter about the comment, but it died down pretty quickly. Maybe I'm confusing it with another situation....

I think that he and Levi kind of got past it and treated it like it was all a misunderstanding, but I'm pretty sure in statement stood.

 

[Publicus]

What else is he going to say after JB told him no attack was necessary? He attacks and buries Kloden on the stage (intent unknown), then throws him under the bus at interview time. Class act.

So Klodi's in the red. He's probably of the opinion that two mates together are better than one by himself at that point, why would he tell AC to go? It's senseless.

So what do you think he and Kloden were talking about along the climb to Colombiere? The beautiful scenery? What was going to be for dinner that night?

 

[Anonymous]

By your argument, he should have never attacked then. He was ALWAYS leading the Schlecks in this race. Ventoux was the last stage of the race, his position was solidified and Andy wasn't racing for it (not too seriously any way). Totally different situation than Stage 17.

Again, you miss the point about Frank Schleck and Lance Armstrong, but I think that's because you can't accept that it played a role in the outcome of Stage 17. Once he was dropped, it was a moot point and he was going to lose big time as a result of it. It was his mistake though that strengthened Andy's hand at the front, contributed to Kloden's bonking and resulted in him dropping from 2nd to 4th.

Just one last point, if Frank wasn't of concern for Armstrong, why was he marking him on every attack on the Col de Romme? He didn't mark Sastre. Or Andy Schleck. Just Frank. Until he caught looking at his shoes he was very concerned with him. At least on my tee vee

I don't think he could go. So what?

 

[balkou]

What was so un classy about chasing down Simeoni? The man spoke out about doping in cycling in general, and hurt the sport. Inhibiting him from being in a stage winning break by having the MJ (!) chase him down was pure class.

Simeoni was busted by the sporting authorities. He served his ban and in the mean time he decided to collaborate with the authorities. He gave testimony (under oath) that the person that helped him in doping himself (the drugs and the methods) was Ferrari. He never said that because Lance had had a collaboration with the same doctor he's a doper himself. Though Lance was so offensive and tried to bully him to not testify against him. Don't tell us that he hurt the sport. Spare us!

 

[Jayarbie]

When analyzing Alberto's attack to Kloden, people need to start thinking in terms of reality and not standard team strategy or podium 1-2-3 aspirations.

These "teammates" where barely in speaking terms with Alberto, who had been betrayed several times by then, so in reality, Kloden was no longer a teammate in Alberto's mind. He was wearing the same Astana jersey, but was not a teammate.

You need to look at it from that perspective to understand Alberto's decision making. Alberto didn't consider JB his DS. It was Lance's DS. And that attack was a big middle finger to that Disney trademark podium 1-2-3 finish strategy. To Lance and to JB.

Of course, the 1-2-3 strategy didn't really have the goal of putting 3 guys in the podium. It had the goal to slow and control Contador. Make sure he wouldn't attack in benefitial areas to him, in hopes that Lance could pull a good ITT in Annecy or have a super day in Mt. Ventoux. That's why they changed the stated goal from "winning the MJ" to "podium 1-2-3".

The 1-2-3 strategy was doomed from the beginning, because Lance couldn't beat AS.

Applying standard race logic to that rotten situation is like trying to utilize kindergarten teaching techniques to reform inmates in St. Quintin.

I don't think that there was a rift between Contador and Kloden. Contador and Lance/Bruyneel sure, but Kloden has not exactly been a faithful Lance ally over the years. I think it was just a mistake by Contador, plain and simple. No malicious intent, just something that happens, especially for younger riders. If that situation comes up again, I doubt that Contador would make that acceleration in that spot.

 

[Anonymous]

LOL. Get him Scott! All of these potential things that didn't happen, but could have happened. I'm surprised Contador left the team bus that morning!

In all seriousness, a number of things could have happened that day, but didn't. Kloden could have gone out the back regardless of what Contador did, we don't know. Or he could have survived if it was just him, Contador and AS. Again, we don't know.

AC did have everything that he could control, under control. He knew he felt good enough to attack, so he wasn't worried about "bonking". If he had a puncture, then he would lose time, but he would lose time if AK was there. It seems to me that you are just intent on portraying AC as a non-team player. Which just isn't the case. Best tactical move? No, not by any stretch of the imagination. An indefensible move, no, not at all. No amount of projecting your preferred tactics will change what happen.

And no one has yet to explain why Lance Armstrong was so ****ed. AC gained time on Wiggins and didn't expend a tremendous amount of energy in the process. Everything else (Lance's podium position, or Kloden's) was irrelevant.

Was that a partial concession that AC maybe should not have attacked then? Just seein' if we are making any progress.

 

[fulcrum]

I don't think that there was a rift between Contador and Kloden. Contador and Lance/Bruyneel sure, but Kloden has not exactly been a faithful Lance ally over the years. I think it was just a mistake by Contador, plain and simple. No malicious intent, just something that happens, especially for younger riders. If that situation comes up again, I doubt that Contador would make that acceleration in that spot.

I think you are ignoring the fact that Kloden was squarely aligned with Lance's camp, and had already been actively helping Lance prior to that stage. I am not saying it was personal, but Kloden definitely knew whose orders he needed to follow.