Contador blasts LA

[Ninety5rpm]

The thing is, Alberto does not talk too much, and did not say too much during the press conference. So whatever he says is 'precious'. He could have thanked his team instead, so this puts more importance to the mind of the people, than his relationship with his teammates, especially LA.

Exactly. +1.

 

[TRDean]

My opinion is irrelevant here. Right or wrong, omerta is widely accepted within the profession as being good for the sport.

This goes way beyond the riders and affects everyone in the sport. You don't even hear Phil and Paul talk openly and fairly about how widespread doping is in the sport. They all believe in omerta, at least to some degree. Lance merely defended the belief which is widely believed to be true within his profession, and, AFAIK, may very well be true.

Honest talk about doping in cycling, especially in public, is not necessarily good for the sport of cycling. The argument can be made that it's very bad for the sport.

Man...you are twisted in your thinking!!

 

[Ninety5rpm]

What a load of BS....... are you paid as a LA pr machine?!

1. You know why LA chased down Simoeni - it was because he implicated LA in doping, not because he "hurt the sport".

2. It is not Contador's responsibility to manage transport, it is the teams... and according to the report, LA got rid of AC's organised transport. If you think for one second that LA wouldn't have gone off the deep end if AC had done this to him you are living on a different planet!

No, I don't know why LA chased him down. I only know why he says he chased him down, and why you say he chased him down.

What report? You guys refer to all this innuendo and rumor as if it is fact. Citation please.

 

[Azdak6]

So where did Frank finish in relation to Wiggo? Why would Lance pay more attention to FS whe he know Frank does not TT well. That's what I see. Have you considered that Lance may not have been able to follow FS? He needed to control Wiggo more than he needed to blow up following FS.

We view this differently. But tell me, who can you point to that sees it your way? I have not seen anyone in the pro racing world that has argued your point.

During that stage, to me it was pretty clear: Contador was marking ASchleck, Kloden was assigned to ride w/Contador and Armstrong was marking FSchleck. I don't think they really saw Wiggins as someone who had to be specifically watched. FSchleck had made a couple of attacks and Armstrong was instantly on his wheel. To me, that part of the strategy was as clear as if you had been sitting in on the team meeting.

As Publicus has pointed out, Armstrong made his own tactical blunder when he missed FSchleck's last attack. Armstrong was inattentive and FS made a perfect move (LA admitted as much after the stage). Once FS got away, Armstrong was stuck. He could not bridge up without pulling Wiggins along. Team tactics dictated that he sit on Wiggins' wheel, so he just had to stay and let the time gap open up. Armstrong tried to get away once and Wiggins was able to follow, so he had to shut it down. Later, when Wiggins was done, Armstrong was able to get away and limit his losses w/out hurting the team.

Could Armstrong have gone after FS and bridged up to Contador/ASchleck? We'll never know. I think it was clear that Armstrong was not going all out when he was on Wiggins' wheel, but we don't know if he could have made it up all the way.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Man...you are twisted in your thinking!!

Twisted it may be, but it is the thinking that is prevalent among those who make a living within the sport, and has always been.

 

[TRDean]

My opinion is irrelevant here. Right or wrong, omerta is widely accepted within the profession as being good for the sport.

This goes way beyond the riders and affects everyone in the sport. You don't even hear Phil and Paul talk openly and fairly about how widespread doping is in the sport. They all believe in omerta, at least to some degree. Lance merely defended the belief which is widely believed to be true within his profession, and, AFAIK, may very well be true.

Honest talk about doping in cycling, especially in public, is not necessarily good for the sport of cycling. The argument can be made that it's very bad for the sport.

Why can't we enforce the Omerta on you? You need to lay down. If talking about doping is bad for the sport so be it...but you are dead wrong in your analysis.

 

[gree0232]

You mean like LA's constant dissing of AC on twitter since his comeback?

AC doesn't like LA personally. Lots of people feel that way.

Perhaps this would be fine if it were just AC vs. Lance. However, isn't this the same sort of nonesense that AC spat out about having Levi Leipheimer finish a very close second in last year's Vuelta?

Let's also back up and remember that Bruyneel stated from the very beginning that the team would ride for teh strongest rider. So, what happens when AC is clearly the stronger of teh two riders? Lance rode for AC and publically praised AC. Yet the day after the tour, not even 24 hours after winning the biggest bike race on Earth, AC is cutting into yet another team mate whose strength and determination are not natural for a 'Team Captain' to have to deal with.

So, exactly where was AC's pick? Where was the guy that bumped Horner off the Astana roster?

Well, it looks like AC will form his own team around himself next year, and instead of surrounding himself with riders nearly as strong and determined as himself, he will surround himself with weaklings.

It'll be interesting to see him pull time out on a TTT with a weak team ala Cadel Evans. It'll be interesting to see him defend in the mountains without any team mates ala Floyd.

Remember, AC won every single one of his Grand Tours with the Astana machine and Johan Bruyneel behind him. As a minimum, some of the stronger riders from Team Astana will be leaving for Radio Shack and other teams, and instead of Lance, next year AC, if he stays, will have Vino to deal with.

No doubt Vino, opininated, arrogant, and fiercely determined in his own right will wind up being yet another person that AC, "Doesn't respect as a person and never will."

As for the rumor that AC is headed to Garmin, I hope it isn't true. Bradley Wiggins and Christian Vandevelde may likewise find themselves maligned for being 'too good' and not supporting their 'Captain'.

Whatever happens next year, the Tour is sure to be interesting. Maybe next year, AC will learn the difference between being surrounded by the strongest riders on Earth vs. those who fawn over you but aren't there when you need them.

Maybe next year, if AC wins, let's hope that the first thing he does won't be to bash a team mate. If he loses, lets hope he doesn't blame his team mates for that as well. I have a feeling that the comments Ac made yesterday will be ones he comes to regret far sooner than he may realize.

 

[Publicus]

So where did Frank finish in relation to Wiggo? Why would Lance pay more attention to FS whe he know Frank does not TT well. That's what I see. Have you considered that Lance may not have been able to follow FS? He needed to control Wiggo more than he needed to blow up following FS.

We view this differently. But tell me, who can you point to that sees it your way? I have not seen anyone in the pro racing world that has argued your point.

I'm not sure how to explain this to you. Armstong's mistake let frank get up the road. Not Frank's superior speed. Armstrong's mistake. If he was concerned about his podium position, then he had to be concerned about losing time to serious GC contenders like um Frank Schleck. He lost 2:18 (and only gained 48 seconds on Wiggins) and was in 4th place after the stage. Lost 2 places because of his error.

Point me to someone that says that is a smart move.

 

[TRDean]

Perhaps this would be fine if it were just AC vs. Lance. However, isn't this the same sort of nonesense that AC spat out about having Levi Leipheimer finish a very close second in last year's Vuelta?

Let's also back up and remember that Bruyneel stated from the very beginning that the team would ride for teh strongest rider. So, what happens when AC is clearly the stronger of teh two riders? Lance rode for AC and publically praised AC. Yet the day after the tour, not even 24 hours after winning the biggest bike race on Earth, AC is cutting into yet another team mate whose strength and determination are not natural for a 'Team Captain' to have to deal with.

So, exactly where was AC's pick? Where was the guy that bumped Horner off the Astana roster?

Well, it looks like AC will form his own team around himself next year, and instead of surrounding himself with riders nearly as strong and determined as himself, he will surround himself with weaklings.

It'll be interesting to see him pull time out on a TTT with a weak team ala Cadel Evans. It'll be interesting to see him defend in the mountains without any team mates ala Floyd.

Remember, AC won every single one of his Grand Tours with the Astana machine and Johan Bruyneel behind him. As a minimum, some of the stronger riders from Team Astana will be leaving for Radio Shack and other teams, and instead of Lance, next year AC, if he stays, will have Vino to deal with.

No doubt Vino, opininated, arrogant, and fiercely determined in his own right will wind up being yet another person that AC, "Doesn't respect as a person and never will."

As for the rumor that AC is headed to Garmin, I hope it isn't true. Bradley Wiggins and Christian Vandevelde may likewise find themselves maligned for being 'too good' and not supporting their 'Captain'.

Whatever happens next year, the Tour is sure to be interesting. Maybe next year, AC will learn the difference between being surrounded by the strongest riders on Earth vs. those who fawn over you but aren't there when you need them.

Maybe next year, if AC wins, let's hope that the first thing he does won't be to bash a team mate. If he loses, lets hope he doesn't blame his team mates for that as well. I have a feeling that the comments Ac made yesterday will be ones he comes to regret far sooner than he may realize.

bash a teammate? Jeez you people make me laugh. A minor word or two and all hell breaks loose. How dare anyone say a bad thing about LA. I can't believe all this crap.

 

[Azdak6]

Great post. I keep thinking this myself post after post. Can't we all just get along?

At least in this thread, I don't think anyone is taking it that seriously.

I certainly am not.

Deep down, we all know this is pointless--but hey, it's good, clean fun.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Man, 95, your posts are very well written, but I think you might be the single most biased member of this forum. I have my own set of biases--one of which is, admittedly, a dislike of Armstrong--but I do at least try to keep an objective outlook on these things.

Truth be told, I don't much like Contador, either, but I feel more and more sympathy for him b/c of the raw deal he got from Armstrong and Brunyeel. Saying that he doesn't like Armstrong was a weird move, but at least he's honest about it. You have to admit that Armstrong has been waging a passive aggressive war for months now--all the while pretending to not understand why the media/fans kept understanding his tweets and statements as the double entendres they are obviously meant to be.

Am not meaning this to be a personal attack, sorry if it ocmes off that way. Again, I'm not a Contador fan, but I so often find myself compelled to come to his defense in discussions like this b/c of Armstrong's blatant and hypocritical misbehavior.

No offense taken.

I try my best to avoid seeing anyone - in public or in my private life - in black and white terms. All people are complex, and Armstrong and Contador are certainly no exceptions to that.

I do think the situation would have been better had either one been a bit more humble. I think that what happened was that when Lance announced he was coming out of retirement and joining Astana, Contador felt threatened and acted defensively, while Lance was probably offended that he was not greeted enthusiastically by Alberto. I can see both sides, and things went south from there.

Having said that, Lance has never gone as far as Alberto's statement about never admiring Lance, and that he never will. That's a low blow.

 

[UpTheRoad]

So, what happens when AC is clearly the stronger of the two riders? Lance rode for AC and publically praised AC.

When/where did Lance ride for Contador? My memory might be failing on this one.

Was it on Ventoux? Specifically the last 3 or 4 kms? Was it on Verbier? Was it on the road to La Grande Motte? Was it on the Col du Romme? Arcalis? Was it prior to the ITT in Annecy? Where was he the super domestique?

 

[max_powers]

theres 91 pages of this crap, and counting

AC was on the team b4 LA changed his mind about retirement.
AC should be ticked

 

[gree0232]

bash a teammate? Jeez you people make me laugh. A minor word or two and all hell breaks loose. How dare anyone say a bad thing about LA. I can't believe all this crap.

Well, it was Levi before that in last year's Veulta .... I guess Levi must also be an arrogant *** bag?

All it takes is a word or two, and I believe this forum is filled with criticism of Lance's every word, including the mild chide that LA gave AC after his hunger nock in Paris-Nice.

The difference is, LA hadn't just won the biggest bike race on Earth, nor indeed a grand tour, and the first thing out of his mouth wasn't criticism of a strong team mate like Roberto Heras.

AC seems to have a problem with strong team mates.

Let's hope he has fun with Vino next year.

 

[Publicus]

The thing is, Alberto does not talk too much, and did not say too much during the press conference. So whatever he says is 'precious'. He could have thanked his team instead, so this puts more importance to the mind of the people, than his relationship with his teammates, especially LA.

Two points: (1) he was responding to a question and (2) contador gives lots of interviews, not English-speaking so he doesn't get as wide of coverage as Lance, so I think you are putting too much weight on the comment. As for thanking his teammates, who says that he didn't? I would assume he did so at the dinner Saturday or talked to them each personally. I'm curious why you suggest that he didn't? And did Lance thank his teammates? I don't even recall him thanking Contador

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Why was the "Lance responds" thread moved to this thread?
We had two lively discussions going on, now all continuity is lost in both.

I'm done.

 

[Carboncrank]

I cannot be bothered going through 38 pages of this thread, but these are my thoughts after reading the CN summary of Contador's statements during his press conference and Lance's twitters: Contador was honest - he more than anyone would be able to appreciate Lance's achievements on the bike and also be able to comment on Lance the man. Lance's reactions to Contador's press conference were immature and rather ironic. This speaks volumes to Lance the man and just supports his public image as an arrogant a-s-s. Lance calling a team mate not a team player is not being a team mate, and Lance was all about Lance on Motorola, US Postal, Discovery and also Astana. If Lance were a better man, he would congratulate Contador on his achievement of a second TdF (and fourth straight GT) and admit there were tensions and leave it at that so we can all move on.

A champion is also measured on how much he respect his teammates and opponents. You can win a race on your own not a gra ...

hey pistolero, there is no "i" in "team". what did i say in March? Lots to learn. Restated.

Seeing these comments from AC. If I were him I'd drop this drivel and start thanking his team. w/o them, he doesn't win.

I don't see anything here to call someone an arrogant ass about any more than I'd call Alberto and ass for his. But then I didn't start with a presuposition that Alberto was one.

Johan calls them "incompatible". They are at crossed purposes. 2 big dogs. Alpha mammals marking territory.

Should make for an interesting year next year.

Lance was perfect in the race. Didn't undermine Alberto once. Made no mistakes.

 

[Azdak6]

I'm not sure how to explain this to you. Armstong's mistake let frank get up the road. Not Frank's superior speed. Armstrong's mistake. If he was concerned about his podium position, then he had to be concerned about losing time to serious GC contenders like um Frank Schleck. He lost 2:18 (and only gained 48 seconds on Wiggins) and was in 4th place after the stage. Lost 2 places because of his error.

Point me to someone that says that is a smart move.

Like I said before, once he let FS get away, he was stuck. He could not go after him as long as Wiggins was strong enough to stay on his wheel. For all the arguments of Armstrong undermining Contador behind the scenes, Armstrong pretty scrupulously followed team tactics on the road. You could almost see in his face that he saw his podium place slipping away and was just waiting for the right moment to get away from Wiggins and get some time back, without violating the "rules".

We disagree about whether Contador's attack was a dumb move, but we are in 100% agreement that it did not cost Armstrong one second. Armstrong lost the time because of his own blunder--period. Inadvertently, Contador's attack helped Armstrong, in that by isolating Kloden, it allowed Armstrong to catch up to AK--otherwise he would have had to ride to protect Kloden's podium spot instead of his own.

 

[gree0232]

When/where did Lance ride for Contador? My memory might be failing on this one.

Was it on Ventoux? Specifically the last 3 or 4 kms? Was it on Verbier? Was it on the road to La Grande Motte? Was it on the Col du Romme? Arcalis? Was it prior to the ITT in Annecy? Where was he the super domestique?

Wiggins vs. Frank Schleck maybe? Now about that public claim that AC was the stronger of the two riders? I guess that means Team Astana should let a probable podium spot fly away? THAT would be good for the sponsor! That makes perfect tactical sense!

But AC would have felt better. Please. The guy won, he won! The first thing he does? Celebrate with some hot tart? Nope, its rip into LA for being at the Tour. The Grand Tour before that it was Levi. How dare these bike riders have ambitions of their own.

Nope, no pattern, LA sucks so AC's behavior is fine.

It amazes me that LA's detractors will criticise LA for literally every move he makes, trying to widget a guy who has won the Tour seven times into the mold of Chris Horner or Giuseppe Guerini.

I guess Frank should have let his 'stronger' brother win the stage too? After all, if your criticism is corret, it is the mold that matters, not the race.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I cannot be bothered going through 38 pages of this thread, ...

Now that they've combined two threads it's over 90 pages. Brilliant!

 

[padyakpinoy]

Like I said before, once he let FS get away, he was stuck. He could not go after him as long as Wiggins was strong enough to stay on his wheel. For all the arguments of Armstrong undermining Contador behind the scenes, Armstrong pretty scrupulously followed team tactics on the road. You could almost see in his face that he saw his podium place slipping away and was just waiting for the right moment to get away from Wiggins and get some time back, without violating the "rules".

We disagree about whether Contador's attack was a dumb move, but we are in 100% agreement that it did not cost Armstrong one second. Armstrong lost the time because of his own blunder--period. Inadvertently, Contador's attack helped Armstrong, in that by isolating Kloden, it allowed Armstrong to catch up to AK--otherwise he would have had to ride to protect Kloden's podium spot instead of his own.

AC's mistake was that he dropped AK. If he did not attack LA would have been able to catch up to them, then it would have been 3 Astana vs 2 Saxo Bank riders to the finish.

Then that would have been an ideal opportunity for a 1-2-3 Astana position!

 

[LongBiker2]

Lance VS Contador

I've always had a great deal of respect for LA as a cyclist. I think Contador deserves respect for his recent performances as well. Contador is young and probably has a sizable ego. (Possibly I would too if I could do what he does.) It's just a shame that LA couldn't be a little bigger about what was going on during the tour. Contador was the leader of the team until LA arrived, and having Bruyneel as the director didn't help, considering his history with Lance. It was a bad situation for Contador who had certain expectations as a race leader.

I will say, however, that Contador didn't show good judgement in some of what he did during the race, but I believe LA could have handled it a little differently. I don't think LA could have won this year even if Contador hadn't been there. Maybe next year. Of course, there's always Andy Schleck.

 

[UpTheRoad]

AC's mistake was that he dropped AK. If he did not attack LA would have been able to catch up to them, then it would have been 3 Astana vs 2 Saxo Bank riders to the finish.

Then that would have been an ideal opportunity for a 1-2-3 Astana position!

Armstrong would have bridged? Seriously? He gained little time (if any) on the descent off the Columbiere. I realize Sherwin was talking as if Armstrong was Salvodelliing down the mountain, at least until Nibali went shooting past him, but it took nearly the entire run into the finish to catch a cracked Kloden.

 

[padyakpinoy]

I'm not sure how to explain this to you. Armstong's mistake let frank get up the road. Not Frank's superior speed. Armstrong's mistake. If he was concerned about his podium position, then he had to be concerned about losing time to serious GC contenders like um Frank Schleck. He lost 2:18 (and only gained 48 seconds on Wiggins) and was in 4th place after the stage. Lost 2 places because of his error.

Point me to someone that says that is a smart move.

Remember that at this point they Astana was concerned of Wiggins because he is the dark horse here. LA did Astana (and Contador) a favor by marking Wiggins and putting distance between him and AC.

LA already knew AC was stronger than him, and he knows he can gain back on FS on the ITT; thus, with this he helped AC eliminate BW. That's the smart teammate in LA!

 

[Carboncrank]

I'm not sure how to explain this to you. Armstong's mistake let frank get up the road. Not Frank's superior speed. Armstrong's mistake. If he was concerned about his podium position, then he had to be concerned about losing time to serious GC contenders like um Frank Schleck. He lost 2:18 (and only gained 48 seconds on Wiggins) and was in 4th place after the stage. Lost 2 places because of his error.

Point me to someone that says that is a smart move.

Lance's first job was to protect Alberto. Frank is no threat to Alberto. He admits he could not go with Frank's attack. Not much later he tried to attack Wiggo but Wiggo responded so Lance did the correct teammate move and called off until he could find a time and place to get free with no counterattack. His concern for his own finish came only after he'd met his team obligation.