Contador blasts LA

[gree0232]

Now about handling a stressful situation on a Team correctly.

Will [Levi] be riding alongside Lance in 2010?

"There's not really anything I can say about that," said Leipheimer. "It isn't always up to me."

But, the winner of this year's Tour of California and Vuelta a Castilla y León adds that he would certainly consider being part of the RadioShack squad. "I have had a great time with Lance this year. As you know, I have been with Johan for three years and I have had the best years of my career. I am not saying that I would definitely not go there."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/leipheimer-discusses-team-radioshack-recovery-from-tour-crash

Lance & Alberto are you watching or listening?

 

[poupou]

Well, not being a court of law, when you walk into a PUBLIC forum and say, "LANCE IS A DOPER!" The response will be, "OK, prove it."

When all you put out is the opinions of those making the accusations and ignoring the rebuttals, well, lets just say that some opinions are better than others.

I will also say that Lance may very well have doped. However, WADA/LNDD's handling of the samples was so bad that they exonerated Lance, embarssed themselves professionally, and consumed the samples in doing so, i.e. now we can never prove Lance doped in 1999.

Given the conduct of LNDD and the results of an independant investigation, the benefit of the doubt definitely goes to Lance on that one.

In fact, every single one of these accussations, when taken to a body that can officially take sides and make sanctions as a result, including the Andreau vs. Lance's doctor episode, the result has always been with Lance.

Lance may not be a nice person, but defending himself from an accusation, even a series of them, does not make him a bad person. I would do the same thing in his shoes.

We cannot speak from doping here. You have already got reponse to your current points in the clinic forum that prove he doped.

 

[gree0232]

We cannot speak from doping here. You have already got reponse to your current points in the clinic forum that prove he doped.

Well then, post a link and I will happy to rip it apart for you

 

[gree0232]

I am no AC apologist, however, even I think if LA had gotten the yellow jersey first there might have been pressure on Contador to hold back and see if LA could keep it.
I don't think AC should have attacked on Verbier, but I totally understand his actions on Arcalis.

Actually, it would have put all the other teams attention on the Lance, and allowed Alberto to go up the road that much easier while the other teams were forced to keep watch on a yellow jersey clad Lance.

Let me also add, for the "Lance didn't have to do it" crowd. Lance won the tour seven times, and his victories were different that Merckx's, different than Pentani's, Big Mig's, etc. Ullrich's ONLY Tour victory came while Riis, the defending champ, was riding for a second victory. By focusing solely on a Captain rather than a race, Cadel Evans was sidelined at T-Mobile, and Kloden only got second once.

The gist of this complaint is that Alberto and his supporters think he should be Lance Armstrong, and Alberto is ****ed off that he is not. Alberto won four Grand Tours on the back of the team than Lance and Johan built. The circumstances are what they are, and a good leader adapts to them rather than saying, "These circumstances are unjust and unfair! (i.e. How dare MY Captaincy ever be challenged!"

I will also say that Alberto has been shielded from the full weight of the media up until now. His first Tour win was overshadowed by Rasmussen, but he has now won THE bike race in convincing fashion. He's already got a taste from Greg LeMond of what lies in store. Riis by his own admission did not handle thefame well, nor did Pentani or Ullrich. Based on his, "next question," and "Lance is a big, fat, jerk," comments, and the all but certain dissolution of his team, it does not look like he is off to a good start.

The upshot, Alberto will now get a chance to what Lance did with USPS and is doing again with Radio Shack. I think ALberto's learning curve is about to steepen greatly. He'll get no favors from the organization he is leaving in tatters behind him. My best wishes to AC, he is supremely talented, but so is Cadel Evans.

 

[UpTheRoad]

I am no AC apologist, however, even I think if LA had gotten the yellow jersey first there might have been pressure on Contador to hold back and see if LA could keep it.
I don't think AC should have attacked on Verbier, but I totally understand his actions on Arcalis.

Why shouldn't AC have attacked on Verbier? When would it have been appropriate for the best climber in the world, who is also the best attacking climber in the world, to attack? It was the perfect time to grab yellow. Nocentini had dropped off and the front group was dwindling. Sastre was still chasing and the other GC contenders were recovering a bit from the Saxo efforts early on. Perfect time to go.

As for Arcalis, when is it appropriate to attack on a climb? Evans attacked and was brought back. Van den Broeck then attacked and Astana was leading the chase. AC went a bit before the capture of VdB. On the flat, a counterattack often goes the instant right before the initial attack is brought back. Why the difference on a climb?

On Arcalis it must have come as a complete shock to Leipheimer to see Cadel Evans attack. He probably thought they were truly kindred spirits. He should have realized right there that the TdF wasn't going to "plan." And then to see Contador attack "against team orders" must have really caused his head to explode. It would make someone want to break a wrist or two.

Truly, I am astounded that Leipheimer was so against Contador's attacks. By attacking, Leipheimer was given freedom to ride wheel after wheel. What more could he have wanted?

Lance must have been absolutely apoplectic to see a teammate go up the road before he ordered them to do so. I am sure he didn't read that when he reached into his back pocket and pulled out his dusty 2005 TdF manual.

 

[LugHugger]

Actually, it would have put all the other teams attention on the Lance, and allowed Alberto to go up the road that much easier while the other teams were forced to keep watch on a yellow jersey clad Lance.

Let me also add, for the "Lance didn't have to do it" crowd. Lance won the tour seven times, and his victories were different that Merckx's, different than Pentani's, Big Mig's, etc. Ullrich's ONLY Tour victory came while Riis, the defending champ, was riding for a second victory. By focusing solely on a Captain rather than a race, Cadel Evans was sidelined at T-Mobile, and Kloden only got second once.

The gist of this complaint is that Alberto and his supporters think he should be Lance Armstrong, and Alberto is ****ed off that he is not. Alberto won four Grand Tours on the back of the team than Lance and Johan built. The circumstances are what they are, and a good leader adapts to them rather than saying, "These circumstances are unjust and unfair! (i.e. How dare MY Captaincy ever be challenged!"

I will also say that Alberto has been shielded from the full weight of the media up until now. His first Tour win was overshadowed by Rasmussen, but he has now won THE bike race in convincing fashion. He's already got a taste from Greg LeMond of what lies in store. Riis by his own admission did not handle thefame well, nor did Pentani or Ullrich. Based on his, "next question," and "Lance is a big, fat, jerk," comments, and the all but certain dissolution of his team, it does not look like he is off to a good start.

The upshot, Alberto will now get a chance to what Lance did with USPS and is doing again with Radio Shack. I think ALberto's learning curve is about to steepen greatly. He'll get no favors from the organization he is leaving in tatters behind him. My best wishes to AC, he is supremely talented, but so is Cadel Evans.

This entire post is nonsense. Firstly, by preventing Armstrong from wearing yellow, Contador immediately prevented there being any question regarding whom the team should be riding for. As we know, this turned out to be the correct move since Contador showed he was clearly Astana's strongest rider. By making the move at Arcalis, he stamped his authority on the race and the team. A move of a confident man. From that stage, he knew that he would be effectively riding with half a team behind him and half a team unwilling or unable to ride for him. That is confidence in your ability.

As to Contador not being Armstrong, well, thank god for that. It looks like he's going to be way more than Armstrong. At 26, and with 2 Tour victories in his palmares, plus 2 more GT's, I would imagine that he's confident that he'll end up with at least 7 by the time he climbs off his bike - for good. I'm sure that at 26, Contador himself would admit that with experience comes wisdom.

Regarding his next team, well wherever he goes, as long as they have a half decent TTT ability, he'll wipe the floor with Radio Shack. I am confident of that.

 

[Anonymous]

There is substantial circumstantial evidence to form a reasonable belief that Armstrong is a doper. Just because he hasn't tested positive doesn't necessarily mean that he is innocent. Such a presumption is illogical, particularly given the history of convicted dopers consistently beating numerous test before they were caught.

Furthermore, since we aren't in a court of law, it is irrelevant to talk about jurisprudence. Armstrong is not on trial. People are free to express their opinions, especially when supported by evidence.

Damn sure doesn't make him guilty either. Reminds me of the political hacks in the US... "the seroiusness of the accusations warrant an investigation! The fact that there is no evidence is precisely why we need an investigation"!!

There is circumstantial evidence with AC and Peurto. Riding for and idolizing Manolo Saiz, the master of systematic doping. Guilt by association. How about laying the wood to Cancellara in the final TT with the AFLD saying publically that there is still dope in the peleton? Certainly sounds nefarious to me. See how easy this game is?? Stop me if this sounds familiar.... I'm available 365 days a year. I have nothing to hide. Testing is a good thing. I support testing. I've never tested positive. Or how about this one, which by the way would be horribly damning if uttered by LA, "Next Question". Those are recent statements and responses to direct questions from AC, not LA. I could go on but hopefully the point has been made.

I believe you could make an argument that EVERY RIDER IN THE TDF (PRO PELETON FOR THAT MATTER) IS NOW CURRENTLY DOPING OR HAS DOPED IN THE PAST. At the Tour of Flanders this year, standing at the top of the Kappelmuur, all anyone could talk about is how much dope Haussler has to be on because Boonen had not been able to beat him so far (can't have that if you are Belgian). Yet Devolder won the race for the second year in a row going away. So if Haussler dopes, then Devolder must also. Never mind the fact that these guys haven't tested dirty, "Such a presumption is illogical, particularly given the history of convicted dopers consistently beating numerous test before they were caught".

Wow. Just wow.

 

[scribe]

Geez. What's up with all the doping posts? No wonder they specify these forums to be dope free.

 

[Anonymous]

Geez. What's up with all the doping posts? No wonder they specify these forums to be dope free.

Tha haters eventually get around to the one thing they think they know. You can't talk about the merits of the racing if LA is involved because it will ALWAYs circle back to this cr@p.

 

[pmcg76]

We used to go through this all the time as everything degenerated into a doping debate, that is why there is now the seperate section(the clinic) but it seems to be creeping back into the racing forum. Mods must be all on holidays or something.

 

[richwagmn]

We used to go through this all the time as everything degenerated into a doping debate, that is why there is now the seperate section(the clinic) but it seems to be creeping back into the racing forum. Mods must be all on holidays or something.

Man, just delete a thread that degenerates into doping. People might get the point.

 

[frizzlefry]

Man, just delete a thread that degenerates into doping. People might get the point.

Or banning people indefinitely or definitely.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Or banning people indefinitely or definitely.

I was curious so I looked back and it is weird there is not any single post that you can incontrovertably say "that is the one that started the dope talk on this thread". It seems like it just sneeks in and then grows like a (dare I say it) cancer. Maybe we should just all agree to accept as true a few simple points before posting anything. And then only debate those points any further in the clinic.
1. Lance Armstrong has never been sanctioned for failing a drug test in any race or out of competition testing.

2. A great deal of anecdotal evidence exists that shows that Lance Armstrong has and possibly still does dope.

3. None of that evidence has ever been upheld in a court of law.

4. There is a possibility that all or almost all pro cyclists are doping.

5. There is a possibility that no or almost no pro cyclists are doping.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

How about laying the wood to Cancellara in the final TT

In the clinic, which is the proper place for this discussion, a number of points have been made about this under the thread "Contador's recovery", which can be found ....IN THE CLINIC....(restated )

 

[Anonymous]

In the clinic, which is the proper place for this discussion, a number of points have been made about this under the thread "Contador's recovery", which can be found ....IN THE CLINIC....(restated )

You may want to go back several pages to discover where the dope talk started. I know where the clinic is. Thank you.

 

[Bronstein]

Damn sure doesn't make him guilty either. Reminds me of the political hacks in the US... "the seroiusness of the accusations warrant an investigation! The fact that there is no evidence is precisely why we need an investigation"!!

There is circumstantial evidence with AC and Peurto. Riding for and idolizing Manolo Saiz, the master of systematic doping. Guilt by association. How about laying the wood to Cancellara in the final TT with the AFLD saying publically that there is still dope in the peleton? Certainly sounds nefarious to me. See how easy this game is?? Stop me if this sounds familiar.... I'm available 365 days a year. I have nothing to hide. Testing is a good thing. I support testing. I've never tested positive. Or how about this one, which by the way would be horribly damning if uttered by LA, "Next Question". Those are recent statements and responses to direct questions from AC, not LA. I could go on but hopefully the point has been made.

I believe you could make an argument that EVERY RIDER IN THE TDF (PRO PELETON FOR THAT MATTER) IS NOW CURRENTLY DOPING OR HAS DOPED IN THE PAST. At the Tour of Flanders this year, standing at the top of the Kappelmuur, all anyone could talk about is how much dope Haussler has to be on because Boonen had not been able to beat him so far (can't have that if you are Belgian). Yet Devolder won the race for the second year in a row going away. So if Haussler dopes, then Devolder must also. Never mind the fact that these guys haven't tested dirty, "Such a presumption is illogical, particularly given the history of convicted dopers consistently beating numerous test before they were caught".

Wow. Just wow.

Why do you disagree with the statement 'such a presumption is illogical, particularly given the history of convicted dopers consistently beating numerous test before they were caught'? Doesn't the fact that convicted dopers such as Basso and Ricco managed to pass numerous tests before being caught suggest that the testing is far from foolproof? Or do you think they suddenly decided to start doping at the very time they were caught? Saying that you haven't tested positive in professional cycling may sound good, but it seems to hold very little weight in reality given the demonstrated ability of riders to consistently beat the testing system.

 

[Anonymous]

Why do you disagree with the statement 'such a presumption is illogical, particularly given the history of convicted dopers consistently beating numerous test before they were caught'? Doesn't the fact that convicted dopers such as Basso and Ricco managed to pass numerous tests before being caught suggest that the testing is far from foolproof? Or do you think they suddenly decided to start doping at the very time they were caught? Saying that you haven't tested positive in professional cycling may sound good, but it seems to hold very little weight in reality given the demonstrated ability of riders to consistently beat the testing system.

So a negative result is a "positive" and a positive result is a "positive". Hell, why test anyone?

The old "heads I win, tails you lose" argument.

Just curious, do you think anyone races clean? If so, using your logic, they are dirty because they test clean. Does that about sum up your point?

 

[Tonester]

"On second thought, let's not go to Camelot, 'tis a silly place"

 

[Bronstein]

So a negative result is a "positive" and a positive result is a "positive". Hell, why test anyone?

The old "heads I win, tails you lose" argument.

Just curious, do you think anyone races clean? If so, using your logic, they are dirty because they test clean. Does that about sum up your point?

I never said a negative result is a positive. I'm only criticising the credibility of the testing system and consequently questioning the value of the claim that "I have never tested positive'. I have never said they are dirty because they test clean. You're completely putting words into my mouth. If we're going to have a decent discussion here, you shouldn't misrepresent me.

With regards to anyone racing clean, I believe that a small minority of professional riders race clean.

Here is a question for you. Why didn't riders such as Kohl and Ricco test positive before they were caught?

 

[Carboncrank]

Why do you disagree with the statement 'such a presumption is illogical, particularly given the history of convicted dopers consistently beating numerous test before they were caught'? Doesn't the fact that convicted dopers such as Basso and Ricco managed to pass numerous tests before being caught suggest that the testing is far from foolproof? Or do you think they suddenly decided to start doping at the very time they were caught? Saying that you haven't tested positive in professional cycling may sound good, but it seems to hold very little weight in reality given the demonstrated ability of riders to consistently beat the testing system.

Go over to the clinic and ask about when they started testing for CERA. Some people, like Ricco, were taking CERA because there was not test for it.
Then there was a test for it.

Ask about micro dosing blood and using micro doses of EPO to treat stored blood. I think they recently started catching some people for that because the test got better.
See if you can learn what Passport is and how it works.

Here's a good one.. check out the bit about Reticulocytes.

http://www.bicycling.com/tourdefrance/article/0,6802,s1-7-483-17647-3,00.html

 

[BroDeal]

I never said a negative result is a positive. I'm only criticising the credibility of the testing system and consequently questioning the value of the claim that "I have never tested positive'. I have never said they are dirty because they test clean. You're completely putting words into my mouth. If we're going to have a decent discussion here, you shouldn't misrepresent me.

With regards to anyone racing clean, I believe that a small minority of professional riders race clean.

Here is a question for you. Why didn't riders such as Kohl and Ricco test positive before they were caught?

Give it up. Logical thinking is not exaclty a strong point with the people you are arguing with. That Kohl could, by his own admission, pass a hundred tests that should have been positive does not seem to explain anying to them about the effectiveness of testing.

 

[Carboncrank]

Give it up. Logical thinking is not exaclty a strong point with the people you are arguing with. That Kohl could, by his own admission, pass a hundred tests that should have been positive does not seem to explain anying to them about the effectiveness of testing.

This of course gets used even though he denied saying that the very next day after the L'Equip interview was published.

 

[gree0232]

Give it up. Logical thinking is not exaclty a strong point with the people you are arguing with. That Kohl could, by his own admission, pass a hundred tests that should have been positive does not seem to explain anying to them about the effectiveness of testing.

Hmm, DiLuca test positive, Heras tests positive, Landis tests positive, Rumsas's wife is found packing, Tin-Tin and Schumacher test positive, amd even Kohl himself tests positive, yet somehow testing is utterly without merit?

It seems to work far better than leaking results to L'Equip.

Now, what the devil does that have to do with AC's comments or Lance's response?

You want a take a challenge regarding Lance's doping, please come here:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=2477&page=3

 

[Greg Johnson]

Oh dear, you folks have got me in a ban-hunting mood again. Such a shame the blatantly clear descriptions of the different forums doesn't seem sink in.

So, to clear it up: This thread is not in The Clinic and from here on anyone to mention doping, doping practices, imply someone is doping etc. will face a ban from the forum.

This is very simple guys. There's a place to talk about this stuff - if that's your thing, go there and do it.

Cheers
Greg Johnson

 

[poupou]

Oh dear, you folks have got me in a ban-hunting mood again. Such a shame the blatantly clear descriptions of the different forums doesn't seem sink in.

So, to clear it up: This thread is not in The Clinic and from here on anyone to mention doping, doping practices, imply someone is doping etc. will face a ban from the forum.

This is very simple guys. There's a place to talk about this stuff - if that's your thing, go there and do it.

Cheers
Greg Johnson

It would be usefull to have a different color for the posts of the clinic. That would be clearer to everyone when responding