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- Jul 9, 2009
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Man you guys are killing me. I was a Lance fan before the tour started, but between his actions during and after the race and the twisted logic puked forth by most of the "Lance fans" on these boards, I am less and less a fan everyday.
Even if JB & LA told AC their plan was for him to win with Lance in second and Levi 3rd, why should he trust someone who told him one thing to his face and then tweeted a completely different story when his back was turned.
It was a difficult situation for all involved and LA just needed to smile , shake Contador's hand and slink off home to get ready for next season.
Even if JB & LA told AC their plan was for him to win with Lance in second and Levi 3rd, why should he trust someone who told him one thing to his face and then tweeted a completely different story when his back was turned.
It was a difficult situation for all involved and LA just needed to smile , shake Contador's hand and slink off home to get ready for next season.
- Jul 9, 2009
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No respect for Lance
I think AC could have gained even more time if he had been on a different team. Bruyneel should have been supporting his team leader - not just his friend. I truly lost all respect for LA, he acted like a spoiled child. He should have stayed in retirement. AC was treated very badly on the very team that recruited him. LA may have radio shack next year, but long-term who will sponsor this team? I can't imagine that they will be around for the long haul. As for AC's future - I hope he ends up on a team where they respect his ability and allow him to attack - just as LA had been allowed to attack. I think AC could have destroyed the competition on Saturday's stage, had he been given the opportunity to attack. But he had to drag LA around with him.
I think AC could have gained even more time if he had been on a different team. Bruyneel should have been supporting his team leader - not just his friend. I truly lost all respect for LA, he acted like a spoiled child. He should have stayed in retirement. AC was treated very badly on the very team that recruited him. LA may have radio shack next year, but long-term who will sponsor this team? I can't imagine that they will be around for the long haul. As for AC's future - I hope he ends up on a team where they respect his ability and allow him to attack - just as LA had been allowed to attack. I think AC could have destroyed the competition on Saturday's stage, had he been given the opportunity to attack. But he had to drag LA around with him.
hfer07 said:I'm responding to gree0232's commentary
If you have something "cheap" to say too - I would be delighted to respond it as well
you didn't respond to it. you didn't argue your point. you simply reacted to in an obscene fashion. That's usually done by someone to divert attention from the fact they don't have a factual rebuttal.
I see a lot of that around here.
when you have the facts on your side argue the facts.
When you don't have the facts on your side pound on the table.
I see a fair amount of table pounding here.
Janice said:
let me guess. first post. first tour de france.
you'd have a hard time convincing me you know much about grand tour stage racing based on what you just wrote.
I'd respond to each point but I think you're more interested in spouting off than you are learning about a complicated sport.
Carboncrank said:
I have to question what you know about cycling if you are suggesting that Contador couldn't have put more time into Lance if he wanted to. That may not be your point, but if it is, you shouldn't be throwing around insults about anyone else's cycling knowledge. Now, if your point is that he had no reason to do it because all he had to do is stay with Schlecklet, then yes, that is true. However, he could have SEVERAL more minutes into Lance if he had wanted to. SEVERAL.
First Post - Yes new to sport - no
I have followed the Tour de France for many years, I read VeloNews, Cycle Sport and have read at least seven books directly related to the Tour. I became interested while living in Colorado when Greg first won the Tour. I understand the team concept, the role of the domestique, etc. However, during all of Lance's wins - first with US Postal and later with Discovery - they never had two team members on the podium. In fact, everyone only raced for Lance - their dedicated leader. There were very few times that Armstrong's domestiques were even allowed to join a breakaway. But, this time it was different Astana didn't want to put just one rider on the podium - what changed? Lance was now a member of Astana. So JB and LA decide to scrap their previous attitude about having only one boss on a team and end up with AC not being fairly treated. AC is young and he still has a lot to learn. However, he rode an incredible tour - and truly on Saturday, I think he could have blown the competition apart. He was clearly the strongest rider - I think with a different team he would have had even more time on Andy. Astana just like TMobile a few years ago had too many leaders! If you want to look at a team that supports their riders look at Garmin! That is what a team is suppose to be, supportive of each other and racing for the strongest cyclist. That was what made Lance as powerful as he was during the 7 tours he won. Also, he never raced in the classics as does AC and many other team leaders. Lance focused only the tour, which makes him a great rider in the history of the tour, but, not the best cyclist of all time - that would probably go to Merckx!. So, yes this is my first post, the reason I posted at all was because I was so upset by Lance's attitude and lack of respect for AC.
I have followed the Tour de France for many years, I read VeloNews, Cycle Sport and have read at least seven books directly related to the Tour. I became interested while living in Colorado when Greg first won the Tour. I understand the team concept, the role of the domestique, etc. However, during all of Lance's wins - first with US Postal and later with Discovery - they never had two team members on the podium. In fact, everyone only raced for Lance - their dedicated leader. There were very few times that Armstrong's domestiques were even allowed to join a breakaway. But, this time it was different Astana didn't want to put just one rider on the podium - what changed? Lance was now a member of Astana. So JB and LA decide to scrap their previous attitude about having only one boss on a team and end up with AC not being fairly treated. AC is young and he still has a lot to learn. However, he rode an incredible tour - and truly on Saturday, I think he could have blown the competition apart. He was clearly the strongest rider - I think with a different team he would have had even more time on Andy. Astana just like TMobile a few years ago had too many leaders! If you want to look at a team that supports their riders look at Garmin! That is what a team is suppose to be, supportive of each other and racing for the strongest cyclist. That was what made Lance as powerful as he was during the 7 tours he won. Also, he never raced in the classics as does AC and many other team leaders. Lance focused only the tour, which makes him a great rider in the history of the tour, but, not the best cyclist of all time - that would probably go to Merckx!. So, yes this is my first post, the reason I posted at all was because I was so upset by Lance's attitude and lack of respect for AC.
Janice said:
Huge difference, T-Mobile didn't WIN both 1st and 3rd. For all the arm waiving and jumping up and down by the anti lance crowd, it worked. And it's not the first time Johan has been in this situation and finished 1st AND 3rd. What number was AC wearing in the 07 Tour? Levi had the leaders number.
What did Lance say during the race that was disrespectful? Saying that dosen't make it so. I recall him answering questions about tactics and saying he couldn't explain them and was frank enough to say they hadn't been part of the plan. Levi did as well. It may have expressed dissapointment but I don't see disrespect. And you can't show me a place on the road where they "disrespect" AC.
This is again a case of you viewing every little thing in a bad light because you didn't like the guy in the first place.
Didn't you claim AC would have blown away everyone if he'd been on another team? Who would you kick off those other teams so you didn't have the same big dog problem and who would you have left? Saxo without Andy? Lotto without Evans? What? I doubt you'd get much support for that idea if you asked around the peloton and not bike forums.
Janice said:
BTW, that's absolutely wrong. There's lots of times where it's a good tactic to have a rider in the break and postal/discovery/astana did it all the time.
I could name you a half dozen guys that were good in the break on Lance led teams. Hincapie's stage win stemmed from him being in a break.
Carboncrank said:
Put up or shut up. List them along with a comparison to the other teams riding for GC those years.
You made the statement, well prove it. And by "lots" and "all the time" lets say that means over 50% of the stages as a minimum.
I just love that AC rips into Lance, but it is somehow Lance who is acting like a spoiled brat and unprofessionally.
I think a direct comparison of the two riders at the height of their respective prowess is in order.
In 1999, USPS was a weak team that nevertheless was coached and lead well by Lance Armstrong and Johan Brunyeel to help him win the race. From that point on, the team steadily recruited and retained talented, strong riders that built USPS/Discovery into an absolute powerhouse. Lance was able to recruit and work with men like Roberto Heras, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Janez Brajkovic, etc., grand tour winners and contenders in their own right, and forge them into a tour winning machine. The team that Lance and Johan built was so strong that it survived the lose of sponsors and inability to recruit new ones by morphing into and saving Team Astana at a moment of crisis. That is something no other team has been able to do. (Highroad was given a big fat pay out).
Poor victim Alberto Contador was a tainted Liberty Seguros rider that Johan deliberately recruited and trained despite the risks of doing so at the time. While he is widely criticised for taking a similar risk with Basso, he seems to get no credit for taking a risk with Alberto, especially not from Alberto.
Now we have Alberto at the top of his game. Rather than recruit talent, we have seen nearly constant complaints that his 'Captainship' should NEVER be challenged on a team with Kloden, Leipheimer, Popovich, Brajkovich who are apparently supposed to completely subsum any desire to win a bike race to Alberto. That stands in sharp contrast to Lance who recruited the very best, and the strongest he could find to race with him.
In equally sharp contrast, the team that has consistantly delivered him to victory is falling apart at the very height of Alberto's success. Many, if not all of the strong riders are going to follow Lance to his new team, including the manager who plucked Alberto from obscurity and has pretty much cast Alberto adrift at the very pinnacle of his success. I think that is a pretty telling action.
Alberto didn't just bite the hand that fed him, he basically destroyed it. The thought of having to share the spot light with a seven time winner of the Tour was apparently too much for our poor victim, who will next year be at the very center of team with riders who will in no way challenge his 'Captain' position. (Interestingly enough, no one challenged Cadel's or Sastre's leadership this year.) He will line up against Andy Schleck with Team Saxo Bank and a strong manager who has recruited strong riders and Lance Armstrong who will have most of the riders who helped Alberto to his last victory, and probably a few other choice recruites, backed by the greatest grand tour manager in history.
I think Alberto will find next years Tour much more difficult than this years, and perhaps in hindsight he will find that building a team is important enough that you can occassionally share the spot light in route to greater glory.
In short, Lance was right. Alberto has a lot to learn.
I think a direct comparison of the two riders at the height of their respective prowess is in order.
In 1999, USPS was a weak team that nevertheless was coached and lead well by Lance Armstrong and Johan Brunyeel to help him win the race. From that point on, the team steadily recruited and retained talented, strong riders that built USPS/Discovery into an absolute powerhouse. Lance was able to recruit and work with men like Roberto Heras, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Janez Brajkovic, etc., grand tour winners and contenders in their own right, and forge them into a tour winning machine. The team that Lance and Johan built was so strong that it survived the lose of sponsors and inability to recruit new ones by morphing into and saving Team Astana at a moment of crisis. That is something no other team has been able to do. (Highroad was given a big fat pay out).
Poor victim Alberto Contador was a tainted Liberty Seguros rider that Johan deliberately recruited and trained despite the risks of doing so at the time. While he is widely criticised for taking a similar risk with Basso, he seems to get no credit for taking a risk with Alberto, especially not from Alberto.
Now we have Alberto at the top of his game. Rather than recruit talent, we have seen nearly constant complaints that his 'Captainship' should NEVER be challenged on a team with Kloden, Leipheimer, Popovich, Brajkovich who are apparently supposed to completely subsum any desire to win a bike race to Alberto. That stands in sharp contrast to Lance who recruited the very best, and the strongest he could find to race with him.
In equally sharp contrast, the team that has consistantly delivered him to victory is falling apart at the very height of Alberto's success. Many, if not all of the strong riders are going to follow Lance to his new team, including the manager who plucked Alberto from obscurity and has pretty much cast Alberto adrift at the very pinnacle of his success. I think that is a pretty telling action.
Alberto didn't just bite the hand that fed him, he basically destroyed it. The thought of having to share the spot light with a seven time winner of the Tour was apparently too much for our poor victim, who will next year be at the very center of team with riders who will in no way challenge his 'Captain' position. (Interestingly enough, no one challenged Cadel's or Sastre's leadership this year.) He will line up against Andy Schleck with Team Saxo Bank and a strong manager who has recruited strong riders and Lance Armstrong who will have most of the riders who helped Alberto to his last victory, and probably a few other choice recruites, backed by the greatest grand tour manager in history.
I think Alberto will find next years Tour much more difficult than this years, and perhaps in hindsight he will find that building a team is important enough that you can occassionally share the spot light in route to greater glory.
In short, Lance was right. Alberto has a lot to learn.
Cobber said:Hi Janice. Welcome to the forums!
+1, welcome aboard Janice. Good to have you posting here.
- Jul 9, 2009
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LugHugger said:
There is a term I would like to introduce all the Lance Hater's too: Jurisprudence.
It doesn't really matter which side of the pond you are on, you can make all the accusations in the world, but unless you can prove something, the person is innocent.
"Where there is smoke, there must also be fire," try that with a judge in any Westren Country and see how far your case goes.
The simple fact of the matter is that Lance Armstrong has never been sanctioned because no one has ever been able to prove he doped. The one 'positive' was invesitgated and the final call went strongly against WADA. How many other riders have been in that position including a very motivated Floyd Landis? There are none.
Ricco was targetted for six months, bam, tests positive.
Di Luca tested based on blood values, bam, tests positive.
Floyd Landis has a 'super' stage and is targeted, bam, tests positive.
Iban Mayo, Schumacher, Tin Tin, all these riders are targetted over a period of months and test positive.
Lance iwent through seven tours a targetted rider and they could never get him.
Guilt by association? Roberto Heras perhaps? Who rode for the same team as Alberto Contador, the latest victim of Darth Armstrong?
The Andreu's say one thing, Lance's doctor, his treatment notes, and treatment plan say something else. Clearly there is smoke and fire Lance's corner on that one.
And finally, having been to France, which I absolutely love, I will also tell you there are some very strong atristocratic tendancies over there. Those who are in poistions of authority do not like being challenged (i.e. having mere peasent, or a rider, challenge their divine decisions). Do you really think that rumor campaigns and innuendo are anything new in France? That smoke always equals fire in the game of politics .... in FRANCE! You ever wonder why boss napping and labor/management disputes are so fierce in France?
Or does jurisprudence matter at all? Are you guilty simply by being accussed?
At this point, the Lance Haters should probably just start saying that Lance Armstrong actually helped John Wilkes Booth assassinate Lincoln! Why not, smoke equals fire.
And at the end of the day, after winning a Grand Tour, THE Grand Tour, AC's first act is to criticise a team mate, a team mate who rode with plenty of strong riders on his team in his years and never, the day after a Grand Tour, ripped into a team mate.
The differenceis that Lance was supremely confident that he truly was the strongest rider. Alberto, though clearly the strongest rider, is obviously not nearly as confident.
But Lance Armstrong faked the moon landing .... so Alberto is a victim.
Janice said:
Imagine this: AC arrived in Spain and does a press con. With the excitement still around him, what comes out of his mouth? Bashing Lance. You have this huge opportunity to thank his teammates, or say something magnanimous, on an important stage as a press con after his victory. What does he do?
That's why I understand LA being upset. AC was putting more attention and thought to their childish quarellings than saying something gracious. That was a press conference. He could have said that later on, like during interviews, or blogs, etc. But that could be treated as his victory speech, and that's why it hurts the team, not just LA.
Dr. Maserati
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- Jun 19, 2009
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gree0232 said:
I am not arguing any of the points you raised- but this is a forum, not a court of Law. We form opinions on the information that is presented to us and make rational decisions to support our conclusions.
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