Contador Blood Doped

[JPM London]

This is from the NOS, a Dutch news network, who used images and information gained through the ARD. The ARD said that they got it from a reliable source, possibly the lab. Certainty is obviously not available

However one of the main problems I have with all this, is Contador the only person upon who this test was performed on. IF this is the case, I find it despicable, as this clearly is an organized attempt at targeting Contador, if it is not the case, I still find it despicable that Contador is the only one brought into the public and probably the only person who'll need to pay for it.
(I am of the opinion that most, if not all of the riders in the top 20 will have had transfusions)
And before anyone attacks me on this, I do believe that doping tests should be effective, however they need to be carried out consistently. You cannot single out a particular rider and perform a test that is not performed on other riders, it does not matter who the rider is


I also have a problem with whether this test will hold up in the sporting proceedings, if it won't be sufficient for sanction, this has completely destroyed Contador and will for the rest of his career be the most well-known fact about him.


Also completely off-topic, does anyone know if Martin started writing again, god knows how long he has been working on this book

+1
agree with everything you wrote.

I don't... Well, with some of it, but not the notion that this is a targeted effort aimed at Conti. If so the UCI had not kept it quiet and would have fought tooth and nail to ban him for 2 years...

Personally though I'm more and more convinced he's actually clean. If he's unhappy about taking a 3 month ban it sounds like he's feeling really wronged...

 

[hektoren]

This is from the NOS, a Dutch news network, who used images and information gained through the ARD. The ARD said that they got it from a reliable source, possibly the lab. Certainty is obviously not available

However one of the main problems I have with all this, is Contador the only person upon who this test was performed on. IF this is the case, I find it despicable, as this clearly is an organized attempt at targeting Contador, if it is not the case, I still find it despicable that Contador is the only one brought into the public and probably the only person who'll need to pay for it.
(I am of the opinion that most, if not all of the riders in the top 20 will have had transfusions)
And before anyone attacks me on this, I do believe that doping tests should be effective, however they need to be carried out consistently. You cannot single out a particular rider and perform a test that is not performed on other riders, it does not matter who the rider is


I also have a problem with whether this test will hold up in the sporting proceedings, if it won't be sufficient for sanction, this has completely destroyed Contador and will for the rest of his career be the most well-known fact about him.


Also completely off-topic, does anyone know if Martin started writing again, god knows how long he has been working on this book

This looks more and more like a classic witchhunt, with Alberto cast as the guy who cast an evil eye on Andy's chain.
I for one am willing to at least try to understand the UCI's reticence in this case. McQuaid doesn't quite fit the bill as Pontius Pilate. Close, but no biscuit.

 

[hfer07]

However one of the main problems I have with all this, is Contador the only person upon who this test was performed on. IF this is the case, I find it despicable, as this clearly is an organized attempt at targeting Contador, if it is not the case, I still find it despicable that Contador is the only one brought into the public and probably the only person who'll need to pay for it.
(I am of the opinion that most, if not all of the riders in the top 20 will have had transfusions)

I have the feeling that WADA, CAS & a lot of cycling federations are still extremely bitter over the OP case on how the Spanish federation handled the sanctions against their own riders- or rather the lack of them--so after nailing Val-piti, they're enthusiastic & want to be vindicated by busting AC as the last missing link of the Puerto affair..

 

[Barrus]

Where was it noted that this test only came about due to the positive test for Clen, nowhere that I've read states anything about it.

To be honest I believe the test for plastic should be mandatory, mainly due to the fact that it is quite inexpensive and easy to do.

I am arguing that they should test for it, but do this consitsently, not only against Contador. If you are going to use this test, use it on all riders, not just on a single one. If the case is that Contador is the only one against whom the test has been used, I argue that, yes it should not be permissable to use as evidence. If not solely on reasons of legitimacy, consistency and all around semblance of fair proceedings, than at least on moral grounds. I know that this goes against what many here believe, but perhaps I view it from a different stance and I truly think this should be the case. If people think I'm wrong about this, we can go into a lengthy debate, yet neither you nor I shall change our opinion

This goes doubly if the test is used against other riders as well, yet Contador is the only one who will go down for it.

I find it especially disturbing that we have not heard anything about similar tests being done on other samples and the outcome of those tests.

 

[hrotha]

I think it's perfectly fine to target specific riders whose values are suspect (and Contador's were). If the test is as easy and cheap, and also reliable, then yes, it'd be good to test everyone, but in principle I don't see anything wrong with making Contador take some extra tests. I also think Martin will die before he finishes the next book.

 

[khardung la]

I always believed that Contador and most other top cyclists are big time dopers, so I found myself feeling strange after watching the last explanations Contador gave today. The guy is making a huge effort to explain his point of view, he is going to all kind of Tv and radio programs in Spain (not only sport related) to explain his version.

Anyway I felt strange because he was incredibly convincing. When he was asked if he would accept the 3 months penalty he rebelled against that possibility so strongly that took me by surprise. He kept saying that what they should do is to send all his blood bags to these kind of more advanced labs to check everything, including the plastics.

I still think he is a doper, but I am in the verge of doubting if this clembuterol thing is really a mistake. That or he is a very good lier and actor, which would not be a surprise after Landis, Armstrong, Heras and the like.

 

[flicker]

Seems to me the dopers first deny, then feel they are victims and if they come back strong or are not subjegated then they feel vindicated.

 

[minessa]

For those of us who can't translate it, is this a documented fact, or just another internet rumor? Velonation is reporting that the case will be resolved by the end of the week, with AC most likely getting off without even a suspension. How can this possibly be reconciled with a high value in the DEHP test?

What i do not understand in ARD report, they claim that plasticizer values are increased on 20 Juli and clenbuterol values on 21 Juli.

 

[Cobblestones]

This is from the NOS, a Dutch news network, who used images and information gained through the ARD. The ARD said that they got it from a reliable source, possibly the lab. Certainty is obviously not available

However one of the main problems I have with all this, is Contador the only person upon who this test was performed on. IF this is the case, I find it despicable, as this clearly is an organized attempt at targeting Contador, if it is not the case, I still find it despicable that Contador is the only one brought into the public and probably the only person who'll need to pay for it.
(I am of the opinion that most, if not all of the riders in the top 20 will have had transfusions)
And before anyone attacks me on this, I do believe that doping tests should be effective, however they need to be carried out consistently. You cannot single out a particular rider and perform a test that is not performed on other riders, it does not matter who the rider is


I also have a problem with whether this test will hold up in the sporting proceedings, if it won't be sufficient for sanction, this has completely destroyed Contador and will for the rest of his career be the most well-known fact about him.


Also completely off-topic, does anyone know if Martin started writing again, god knows how long he has been working on this book

I assume that the plasticizers are tested for pretty much every time. Likely as part of a study to see whether it can be used eventually as indicators for a blood transfusion. Since at present, no AAF can be derived from such tests, the results will usually never see the light of day (except maybe anonymous as part of a research study; scientists are using A samples for research studies all the time just as in the article linked by Ingsve). Anyway, when the results were leaked to the press, I assume, not only did the level of Clen metabolites get leaked, but also any other results. Probably the whole test sheet got leaked. I doubt it is the lab who targeted Contador by doing this test just on his sample. They just did what they did with every sample. Likely they see plasticizer spikes in other samples, but can't connect the samples with names. No need to get excited with conspiracy theories here.

Contador's testsheet leaked because he had an AAF and someone in the system (likely not affiliated with the lab) didn't like how it was hushed up and informed the ARD.

 

[hektoren]

To be honest I believe the test for plastic should be mandatory, mainly due to the fact that it is quite inexpensive and easy to do.

Why anyone would want to test for plastic (in this case phtalates) is beyond me. The test finds phtalates, so what? Most westerners have them in their body anyway, as we're surrounded by them all year round. Look closely enough, and you've got them as well. Does that mean you've blood-doped? Of course not! You might've sucked a traffic cone, gotten new shoes you're so proud of you keep them on your nightstand and inhale their clean new smell through the night, you've bought imported fatty food from China wrapped in PVC coated with it, had a child's plastic duck in your mouth while you waited for the water to get the right temperature, you might've repainted your dwellings with that new water-based paint, etc. etc. The permutations are endless and you'll never get a a case based on DEHP to stand up in court. Lawyers would love sinking their teeth into an arbitration case based solely on suspicion and the DEHP-test.
The DEHP-test is a dead end.

 

[Barrus]

I assume that the plasticizers are tested for pretty much every time. Likely as part of a study to see whether it can be used eventually as indicators for a blood transfusion. Since at present, no AAF can be derived from such tests, the results will usually never see the light of day (except maybe anonymous as part of a research study; scientists are using A samples for research studies all the time just as in the article linked by Ingsve). Anyway, when the results were leaked to the press, I assume, not only did the level of Clen metabolites get leaked, but also any other results. Probably the whole test sheet got leaked. I doubt it is the lab who targeted Contador by doing this test just on his sample. They just did what they did with every sample. Likely they see plasticizer spikes in other samples, but can't connect the samples with names. No need to get excited with conspiracy theories here.

Contador's testsheet leaked because he had an AAF and someone in the system (likely not affiliated with the lab) didn't like how it was hushed up and informed the ARD.

I do not think that it was the lab that was targeting Contie, for me the leaking of the test results, outside of the Clen is what targeted him, unless off course the plastic test was solely done to the Contador sample.

The main problem I have what all this, is the fact that we have not heard of this test being performed on any athlete at all, prior to this scandal. The fact that it is now used in the press, probably due to leaking this especially, and the undermining of Contador, is what I have a problem for. If it was known that this test was being performed, that this test is known to have been performed on other riders. What the outcome was of those riders and any semblance of transparency, I would not be so up in arms about it. As of know, we only know that this test was performed on a single rider, without any indication as to why this test was done, as it probably is not part of the regular pallet of tests. Why these results were made public, especially if it is the case that it was part of a research study, in which case it would have had to been completely anonymous, otherwise I have serious qualms about the ethics of this specific researcher


@ hektoren, please read the blood doping thread I started yesterday, or the day before, especially Ingsve and Squares made some terrific points, and the study psoted by Ingsve describes actually what you want to know and the possibility of the DEHP test.
However I do agree with you on some of the legal aspects, although these will probably be mainly confined until the test is routinely used.

 

[Cobblestones]

I do not think that it was the lab that was targeting Contie, for me the leaking of the test results, outside of the Clen is what targeted him, unless off course the plastic test was solely done to the Contador sample.

The main problem I have what all this, is the fact that we have not heard of this test being performed on any athlete at all, prior to this scandal. The fact that it is now used in the press, probably due to leaking this especially, and the undermining of Contador, is what I have a problem for. If it was known that this test was being performed, that this test is known to have been performed on other riders. What the outcome was of those riders and any semblance of transparency, I would not be so up in arms about it. As of know, we only know that this test was performed on a single rider, without any indication as to why this test was done, as it probably is not part of the regular pallet of tests. Why these results were made public, especially if it is the case that it was part of a research study, in which case it would have had to been completely anonymous, otherwise I have serious qualms about the ethics of this specific researcher


@ hektoren, please read the blood doping thread I started yesterday, or the day before, especially Ingsve and Squares made some terrific points, and the study psoted by Ingsve describes actually what you want to know and the possibility of the DEHP test.
However I do agree with you on some of the legal aspects, although these will probably be mainly confined until the test is routinely used.

Did you even read what I wrote? Likely the plasticizer test is administered many times. I explained why we never get any results from it. I explained why only Contador's result was leaked. There's no special treatment of Contador. The thing which is special about Contador is that he has an AAF and therefore ALL of his results (including the plasticizer test) got leaked.

 

[dbrower]

What i do not understand in ARD report, they claim that plasticizer values are increased on 20 Juli and clenbuterol values on 21 Juli.

Make sense if the plastic gets flushed out fast, and the clen needs more time to metabolise.

-dB

 

[dbrower]

T

However one of the main problems I have with all this, is Contador the only person upon who this test was performed on. IF this is the case, I find it despicable, as this clearly is an organized attempt at targeting Contador, if it is not the case, I still find it despicable that Contador is the only one brought ...

Why? Someone's going to be the first. Unlucky for him (or her), but that is the way it goes.

-dB

 

[Barrus]

Did you even read what I wrote? Likely the plasticizer test is administered many times. I explained why we never get any results from it. I explained why only Contador's result was leaked. There's no special treatment of Contador. The thing which is special about Contador is that he has an AAF and therefore ALL of his results (including the plasticizer test) got leaked.

I have read what you wrote, however nothing is available to substantiate that.
This is the only test I have ever heard being performed. If this is performed as routine procedure, how can we not have heard about it at all. Would it not have been leaked in a sooner instance, because if this test is used so routinely, one would expect that routinely riders are found with elevated plasticizer tests, something which is bound to come out

If it was part of a research, the plasticizer test should not have been part of his results, nor of the regular test sheet, if it was, this is a clear unethical manner of doing research


@ dbrower, someone needs to be the first, however someone need not be the only one

 

[El Pistolero]

I hope Contador's punishment is a 6 month ban and not being invited to any races ASO organizes for 2011.

Sucks to be a small cyclist like Li Fuyu and Keisse though.

The difference with the Fuyu case however is that they don't have samples of previous days. With Contador they have and he didn't gave a positive before the second rest day at the tour. And seeing as the amount of Clen found in the blood is too little to inject your self there are only 2 possible scenario's.

1) He blood doped. But if there's no proof for this then they can't ban him for this reason.
2) He took something on accident that was contaminated with Clen.

 

[Mich78BEL]

I hope Contador's punishment is a 6 month ban and not being invited to any races ASO organizes for 2011.

Sucks to be a small cyclist like Li Fuyu and Keisse though.

The difference with the Fuyu case however is that they don't have samples of previous days. With Contador they have and he didn't gave a positive before the second rest day at the tour. And seeing as the amount of Clen found in the blood is too little to inject your self there are only 2 possible scenario's.

1) He blood doped. But if there's no proof for this then they can't ban him for this reason.
2) He took something on accident that was contaminated with Clen.

anything less then a one-year-ban and having to give back his tour-win would seem unjust

 

[Cobblestones]

I have read what you wrote, however nothing is available to substantiate that.
This is the only test I have ever heard being performed. If this is performed as routine procedure, how can we not have heard about it at all. Would it not have been leaked in a sooner instance, because if this test is used so routinely, one would expect that routinely riders are found with elevated plasticizer tests, something which is bound to come out

If it was part of a research, the plasticizer test should not have been part of his results, nor of the regular test sheet, if it was, this is a clear unethical manner of doing research

I don't get why this is unethical research. Look at Ingsve's article. They used 127 samples from athletes (cyclists, swimmers, soccer players). They are all anonymous because under normal circumstances (no AAF) the labs never know the names of the athletes. So we have a journal article which says that the test was performed at least 127 times prior to the Contador sample. In 4 of those 127 instances, the levels were elevated. So, when you ask all your questions ... well, there is an answer. The test has been run plenty of times, results are available (anonymous), the results are well documented, and there's even four 'outliers' as they're called in the article. How more 'out there' can it be?

As far as the plasticizer test, how the testing works (AFAIR) is that each sample is ran through all tests at once. It's pretty automatized. Don't imagine a chemist doing one test at a time, by hand. It kind of looks more like this. It's computerized and in the end, you'll get a record (which you can print out) with all the results of all the tests. That's likely the one which was passed on (and got leaked). I just don't get why you think the lab is acting unethically.

 

[hektoren]

anything less then a one-year-ban and having to give back his tour-win would seem unjust

Unjust? To whom?
You?
Luckily you're about as far away from the decision-making process in WADA/UCI as Sarah Palin is from having a say in US foreign policy. The consequences of both would be equally disastrous.

Thing is, Contador is guilty of having fifty millionths of a million of a gram of Clenbuterol in his urine, far below any threshold of having an effect on his performance. How it got there is open to speculation. It might even get there through ingested water. We're none the wiser, and your guess is as good as mine, as is the bloodbag-theory.
We know, however, that the director of the Cologne lab in 2009 wanted a threshold for these kind of substances, as the ability to detect them increased, making it possible to detect that your father slept with only one hand above the covers, age 13, with a sudden coming of age (no pun intented) having sneaked into the Cinema, seeing Vertigo with Kim Novak in a leading role. Surprise, surprise, the UCI did zilch, and hence the deadlock apparent now. Suspending Contador on this evidence is such overkill.
You'll find, if you do a thorough research, that I'm as opposed to doping as Al-Qaeeda is to porn. That's not the issue. The issue is the difference between a close shave and cutting off your chin.


As I've stated before: The amount of Clen in Contadors urine per gram is as small as a half an atom's radius compared to a meter! It's like saying that passing the liquor store's window makes you an alcoholic.

 

[Mich78BEL]

Unjust? To whom?
You?
Luckily you're about as far away from the decision-making process in WADA/UCI as Sarah Palin is from having a say in US foreign policy. The consequences of both would be equally disastrous.

Thing is, Contador is guilty of having fifty millionths of a million of a gram of Clenbuterol in his urine, far below any threshold of having an effect on his performance. How it got there is open to speculation. It might even get there through ingested water. We're none the wiser, and your guess is as good as mine, as is the bloodbag-theory.
We know, however, that the director of the Cologne lab in 2009 wanted a threshold for these kind of substances, as the ability to detect them increased, making it possible to detect that your father slept with only one hand above the covers, age 13, with a sudden coming of age (no pun intented) having sneaked into the Cinema, seeing Vertigo with Kim Novak in a leading role. Surprise, surprise, the UCI did zilch, and hence the deadlock apparent now. Suspending Contador on this evidence is such overkill.
You'll find, if you do a thorough research, that I'm as opposed to doping as Al-Qaeeda is to porn. That's not the issue. The issue is the difference between a close shave and cutting off your chin.


As I've stated before: The amount of Clen in Contadors urine per gram is as small as a half an atom's radius compared to a meter! It's like saying that passing the liquor store's window makes you an alcoholic.

unjust towards other riders/athletes getting severe bans (one year - two year) for similar offences, like Keisse, that Chinese riders....

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Why anyone would want to test for plastic (in this case phtalates) is beyond me. The test finds phtalates, so what? Most westerners have them in their body anyway, as we're surrounded by them all year round. Look closely enough, and you've got them as well. Does that mean you've blood-doped? Of course not! You might've sucked a traffic cone, gotten new shoes you're so proud of you keep them on your nightstand and inhale their clean new smell through the night, you've bought imported fatty food from China wrapped in PVC coated with it, had a child's plastic duck in your mouth while you waited for the water to get the right temperature, you might've repainted your dwellings with that new water-based paint, etc. etc. The permutations are endless and you'll never get a a case based on DEHP to stand up in court. Lawyers would love sinking their teeth into an arbitration case based solely on suspicion and the DEHP-test.
The DEHP-test is a dead end.

Why do you keep making this nonsensical counter-argument? It's not about having DEHP in his system. What's damning is the massive spike the day before the clen positive and how high the levels were. Read the study Ingsve linked to. Contador's concentration of DEHP was 480 ng/ml according to the ARD. That's roughly 5 times more than the highest value recorded in any member of the control group and even higher than the highest value in any "hospitalized patient exposed to different medical treatments involving plastic materials (catheters, infusion sets, tubes, parenteral nutrition, etc.)". It's also more than twice as high as the average in patients receiving transfusions.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...9.02352.x/full

No one has claimed he's gonna get banned based solely on the DEHP test but don't act like it has no value whatsoever. It IS a red flag and I suppose it could possibly play a role as a compliment to changes in htc, retics and other blood values.

 

[hektoren]

Why do you keep making this nonsensical counter-argument? It's not about having DEHP in his system. What's damning is the massive spike the day before the clen positive and how high the levels were. Read the study Ingsve linked to. Contador's concentration of DEHP was 480 ng/ml according to the ARD. That's roughly 5 times more than the highest value recorded in any member of the control group and even higher than the highest value in any "hospitalized patient exposed to different medical treatments involving plastic materials (catheters, infusion sets, tubes, parenteral nutrition, etc.)". It's also more than twice as high as the average in patients receiving transfusions.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...9.02352.x/full

No one has claimed he's gonna get banned based solely on the DEHP test but don't act like it has no value whatsoever. It IS a red flag and I suppose it could possibly play a role as a compliment to changes in htc, retics and other blood values.

Oh- come on! As long as there's no protocol for this kind of tests (it's a bit like experimental treatment in medicine; might be good for you, but might make your exit from this world of worlds a spectacularly ugly one too),
I can think of any number of reasons why the scientists behind this particular test wants to plug it, but as long it's not peer-reviewed, checked and double-checked by independent sources, it should be treated as raw sewage. Pinch your nose and don't get too close.

 

[hektoren]

Why do you keep making this nonsensical counter-argument? It's not about having DEHP in his system. What's damning is the massive spike the day before the clen positive and how high the levels were. Read the study Ingsve linked to. Contador's concentration of DEHP was 480 ng/ml according to the ARD. That's roughly 5 times more than the highest value recorded in any member of the control group and even higher than the highest value in any "hospitalized patient exposed to different medical treatments involving plastic materials (catheters, infusion sets, tubes, parenteral nutrition, etc.)". It's also more than twice as high as the average in patients receiving transfusions.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...9.02352.x/full

No one has claimed he's gonna get banned based solely on the DEHP test but don't act like it has no value whatsoever. It IS a red flag and I suppose it could possibly play a role as a compliment to changes in htc, retics and other blood values.

Come to think of it, there are big holes in your argument. If there's a big spike in his phtalate levels the day before the Clen appears, then the blood transfusion you allude to can't be the source for the Clen, as it would peak simultaneously. Also, if his levels were 5 times higher for DEHP than for any hospitalized group, would that mean that he had 5 transfusions? Is it possible that his DEHP stems from a source other than a blood-bag?
Give it up. I know. It hurts, having invested so much of yourself in hatred for such a petty cause. But this thing won't fly. No way.

 

[Der_Gestreifte]

Come to think of it, there are big holes in your argument. If there's a big spike in his phtalate levels the day before the Clen appears, then the blood transfusion you allude to can't be the source for the Clen, as it would peak simultaneously.

Actually it wouldn´t.
In to this new piece from Seppelt F. Sörgel says the phtalate stuff gets excreeted right away whereas celnbuterol is transported into tissue and will appear in the urin later.


BTW, in this clip Contador says he had no idea about thosee values: "UCI and WADA must have had known about it, but I had not been informed".
Schenk thinks the UCI is performing very bad at managing all this and might be panicking because of another possibly or likely positive TdF winner.
Nothing more which could be considered news.

 

[Merckx index]

Come to think of it, there are big holes in your argument. If there's a big spike in his phtalate levels the day before the Clen appears, then the blood transfusion you allude to can't be the source for the Clen, as it would peak simultaneously. Also, if his levels were 5 times higher for DEHP than for any hospitalized group, would that mean that he had 5 transfusions? Is it possible that his DEHP stems from a source other than a blood-bag?
Give it up. I know. It hurts, having invested so much of yourself in hatred for such a petty cause. But this thing won't fly. No way.

The kinetics of CB and DEHP clearance are not necessarily the same. The published study of DEHP indicates highest levels of metabolites in urine within 24 hours of transfusion. Highest levels of CB may occur a little later. If Bert transfused a few hours before giving a urine sample on the 20th, the DEHP study suggests he might have very high levels of metabolites in that sample, whereas he might still have low levels of CB. Remember, the 50 pg/ml detected on the following day is lower than most labs can detect, and is getting close to what even the German lab could detect. So while some CB would be expected to appear in his urine on the day of a hypothetical transfusion, it might at that point be still too low to be detected. Basically, it's impossible to draw a conclusion without more detail about the kinetics of both substances, which isn't available, as well as the timing of the alleged transfusion, which obviously isn't available.*

The alleged DEHP level of 480 ng/ml is higher than the average for transfusion patients, but it is not higher than any recorded. It is in fact very much in the range one would expect for someone who had transfused.

Wrt your previous post about applicability, Howman has been quoted as saying a test for DEHP for anti-doping purposes is in "the final stages of validation" and that it can be used as evidence. His opinion, regardless of what any of us think.

*Der G posted while I was writing this. While I haven't seen the link, apparently it supports the contention I was making.

Finally, just to complicate things further, if the data do suggest a transfusion on the 20th, that is a little puzzling, because the rest day was the 21st. One would think if he transfused, it was on a rest day. But if other DEHP data fit (the spike, with values declining rapidly on the 22d-24th), I think that evidence would be much stronger than lack of a fit with the rest day.