Contador Isolates Self

[cody_57]

He would be completely lost without Bruyneel.......if he stays with the game plan then Astana is 1, 2 and 3 in the GC.

A very stupid move hurting Kloden much like his dopey move on Arcalis where if he had rode steadily Lance would have gotten yellow....been a great gesture.

The old pros on Astana are making him look good. If they were on different teams, Lance had the power yesterday to continue his attack rather than regroup...the Schlecks were spent.

Think for a moment if Lance had yellow Bruyneel would let it go anywhere else? That would've been the catalyst to name Armstrong the leader. Game over!

 

[Publicus]

Bruyneel's take on today's stage:

http://www.astana-cyclingteam.com/race_recaps/tdfst1709.html

"As a time trial specialist we knew Wiggins was the real danger," said General Manager Johan Bruyneel. "At the moment the Schlecks went Contador and Klöden went so it was fine. We knew the Schlecks would go to the end because they wanted to get rid of Bradley Wiggins. The attack from Contador at 3km from the top, I had advised Alberto not to go because he didn’t need to go. He didn’t need to go because it was clear that the Schlecks would go full gas to the finish. I told him, ‘You don’t have to attack to win the Tour de France today’. It’s a bit of a pity that Andreas couldn’t hold on because we could have been first, second and third on GC but now we are first, fourth and fifth." Regarding a late attack by Lance, Johan continued with, " A rider has to know when he can go and Lance really judged that attack. I know that he had a hard time the last few kilometers, it was a hard stage. I told him on the final of the Colombiere to go away from Wiggins so in the end we could be 1-2-3. But in the end you can’t want it all. Our purpose is to win the Tour and we got a big step forward today. If we want everything we can end up with nothing and that’s not what we want. Second and third are not a goal. If it happens that’s ok but we don’t go after it. Winning the Tour is the goal."

I thought it was a very interesting comment. His loyalties are all about Lance Armstrong.

 

[lean mean &green]

it doesn't matter all contador needs to do is to ride a good TT and the sit on andy's wheel.

nope, contador will attack and win on ventoux, won't be following anyone at the summit

 

[Futuroscope]

Exactly...

lance riding as a good teammate or not. lance flaming contador or not. doesnt really matter at this point. the legs have and will decide this race.

even if lance gets back time on the schlecks in the TT he will never be able to keep up with them on mount ventoux..well at least not andy (as frank will sacrifice himself for andy) or contador.

the only way contador can loose this tour is if he crashes or bonks on mount ventoux.

1. contador
2. a. schleck
3-7th place all up in the air.

 

[uphillstruggle]

I just don't see Lance staying with or dropping either of the Schleck Brothers at this point.

I agree but it will be fun to see him try. It will be interesting to see what tomorrow does to the standing.

 

[Publicus]

Depending on how Kloden does in the ITT tomorrow, he could ride himself back up to the podium. He can hang with the Schleck Brothers.

 

[Cobblestones]

I think it was an excellent move by Bertie at the time. You're all arguing based on the outcome, a piece of information which wasn't available for Bertie at the time of the attack. That makes your arguments weak.

Let's see what the situation was at the time of the attack:

1) Frank and Andy had been attacking since the lower parts of the previous climb. They were driving in the front for most of the two last climbs)
2) Bertie and Kloden were following. I think neither had been doing a single pull at the front at that time
3) So far, Bertie had been able to ride away from Andy (and Frank) every single time he attacked in this TdF.

Based on these facts there was a very reasonable expectation that Bertie's attack would a) quite likely distance the Schleck brothers, in particular Frank who's considered the weaker one (and who certainly looked weaker yesterday) and b) not necessarily drop Kloden who hadn't worked in the front during the entire day as far as I could see.

The second point is the weaker point since Kloden (despite JB blather about 4 leaders) was always the omega b!tch of the 4.** Kloden was never a leader of Astana. Both he and his teammates never considered him as anything else than a domestique. Who's going to ask for permission to attack from a domestique? If at all Bertie should have asked him how he felt and if he thought that he could hang on to any kind of acceleration.

The last point I would like to make is that I'm fed up with team tactics dictated to the riders by their DS. We had a thread here a short while ago about it. If the result of radios is that we see fewer attacks, then get the f*ck rid of the radios already. When a rider feels good and wants to attack, I don't want no freaking DS to stop him from it. Racing has become duller over time anyway. Now I see a post here where some accountant adds prize money and would like to see race tactics determined by maximizing it? Try to put a price tag on charisma, chuzpah and style in which a race is won. How much are legendary performances and epic wins worth in your opinion? Do you think sponsors don't appreciate that? Don't you think that increases the value of a rider, a team, or a sporting event as a whole? Jeez, stop thinking with your pocket calculator.

I enjoyed every bit of today's stage. The fight between Pellizotti and Martinez, Thor's incredible chase for points, and the final two climbs including Sastre's, the Schlecks's and definitely Contador's attack. If you guys don't like to see riders attack, here's a suggestion: get a tape from stage 9 and watch that instead. Or watch paint dry. Whatever. Just don't come here and criticize a rider for attacking.


** Just look back at Arcalis and who drove up the Astana train. If the Leech would like to find out where Kloden lost a few seconds, he might want to look back at that stage and ask himself why he, as the objectively weakest of the Astana 4, didn't ride tempo for the other 3. Maybe Kloden wouldn't have lost seconds there. Alternatively, look at the Verbier stage and check who hauled a tired 38-year-old a$$ up the slopes. Then come back and tell me what your point was exactly.

end rant

 

[Publicus]

lance riding as a good teammate or not. lance flaming contador or not. doesnt really matter at this point. the legs have and will decide this race.

even if lance gets back time on the schlecks in the TT he will never be able to keep up with them on mount ventoux..well at least not andy (as frank will sacrifice himself for andy) or contador.

the only way contador can loose this tour is if he crashes or bonks on mount ventoux.

1. contador
2. a. schleck
3-7th place all up in the air.

Agreed. I think Kloden has a decent shot depending on how he TTs tomorrow.

 

[Futuroscope]

nope, contador will attack and win on ventoux, won't be following anyone at the summit

you misunderstood my post, i was refering to what contador needs to do to win. and he doesnt need to attack on mount ventoux (just stay on andy's wheel)..but yeah i think he will attack. two different things.

 

[gttim!]

Because it is unsporting to sprint after sitting in and not contributing to the work, that is why he didn't go for the sprint.

Paging George Hincappie!

 

[rhubroma]

Alberto may be the strongest rider, but it's clear he still has a lot to learn.

To watch him go off the front while two-on-two with the Schlecks, taking time from Wiggo who was with the ever-faithful Lance, and drop Kloden, Johan must have had a heart attack!

He expended energy needlessly ahead of the ITT, sped up Andy and Frank, who put time into Lance and Kloden and took 2nd and 3rd respectively (better positions for the ITT too).

Alberto, que fuiste pensando? Necesitas aprender muchas ser un lider del equipo!

Bullsh!t! Contador is the race leader, hardly has a team, has Lance trying to regain the throne, has a DS not in his corner, should try and gain time as much as he can...what the fook else is the guy supposed to do. Play 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Astana team tactics, or try to ensure for himself the win?

What would Armstrong have done? Or Hinault or Eddie have done? Come on, damn it, grow some balls! He would be the undisputed team leader on any other squadra. He only got caught up in team politics. If he wants to be the leader than he has to attack. Everything else is just whining from the Lance crew. Period.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

This thread is too long to verify no one has mentioned this yet, so apologies in advance if anyone has, but I thought Levi's tweets during the stage were interesting.

Will Andreas get his Grand Bornand win 5 yrs later? I hope so
...
Well, that wasn't a good move!!
...
Now Alberto is isolated AND Andreas is dropped!
...
I guess it's not meant to be for Andreas, what was a near sure victory will now be difficult.
...
If Andreas finishes 4th in GC by less than 2' from 3rd, we know where he lost it. . .

 

[MKirilenko]

omg, again all that whining-tweeting, why he attacked, not a good move, bla bla bla. Its no chess for crying out loud, its cycling. All that calculating, GC stands planning during stage, bs. Why wouldnt he attack? He was feeling good, had legs for it, was in MJ, so why not try to put some seconds in Schlecks? They could go faster, so they did, Kloeden wasnt strong enough, so he was left. Simple. And actually AC stopped the attack, when saw Kloeden cant follow, so it was nice of him. Clearly it wasnt his intention to drop him. But its just happened. get over it.

 

[Publicus]

I think it was an excellent move by Bertie at the time. You're all arguing based on the outcome, a piece of information which wasn't available for Bertie at the time of the attack. That makes your arguments weak.

Let's see what the situation was at the time of the attack:

1) Frank and Andy had been attacking since the lower parts of the previous climb. They were driving in the front for most of the two last climbs)
2) Bertie and Kloden were following. I think neither had been doing a single pull at the front at that time
3) So far, Bertie had been able to ride away from Andy (and Frank) every single time he attacked in this TdF.

Based on these facts there was a very reasonable expectation that Bertie's attack would a) quite likely distance the Schleck brothers, in particular Frank who's considered the weaker one (and who certainly looked weaker yesterday) and b) not necessarily drop Kloden who hadn't worked in the front during the entire day as far as I could see.

The second point is the weaker point since Kloden (despite JB blather about 4 leaders) was always the omega b!tch of the 4.** Kloden was never a leader of Astana. Both he and his teammates never considered him as anything else than a domestique. Who's going to ask for permission to attack from a domestique? If at all Bertie should have asked him how he felt and if he thought that he could hang on to any kind of acceleration.

The last point I would like to make is that I'm fed up with team tactics dictated to the riders by their DS. We had a thread here a short while ago about it. If the result of radios is that we see fewer attacks, then get the f*ck rid of the radios already. When a rider feels good and wants to attack, I don't want no freaking DS to stop him from it. Racing has become duller over time anyway. Now I see a post here where some accountant adds prize money and would like to see race tactics determined by maximizing it? Try to put a price tag on charisma, chuzpah and style in which a race is won. How much are legendary performances and epic wins worth in your opinion? Do you think sponsors don't appreciate that? Don't you think that increases the value of a rider, a team, or a sporting event as a whole? Jeez, stop thinking with your pocket calculator.

I enjoyed every bit of today's stage. The fight between Pellizotti and Martinez, Thor's incredible chase for points, and the final two climbs including Sastre's, the Schlecks's and definitely Contador's attack. If you guys don't like to see riders attack, here's a suggestion: get a tape from stage 9 and watch that instead. Or watch paint dry. Whatever. Just don't come here and criticize a rider for attacking.


** Just look back at Arcalis and who drove up the Astana train. If the Leech would like to find out where Kloden lost a few seconds, he might want to look back at that stage and ask himself why he, as the objectively weakest of the Astana 4, didn't ride tempo for the other 3. Maybe Kloden wouldn't have lost seconds there. Alternatively, look at the Verbier stage and check who hauled a tired 38-year-old a$$ up the slopes. Then come back and tell me what your point was exactly.

end rant

Or look at the end of this stage when Kloden couldn't hold Lance's wheel. He lost 11 seconds if my memory is correct.

 

[lean mean &green]

end rant

wrong. it was a bad move but as i said earlier the time gaps probably aren't much different as a result of it. much ado about nothing.

 

[Hillbilly]

I agree with many here that Contador's attack was not the smartest thing as he did not gained all that much and hurt two of his teammates (one of whom at least helped AC some) in terms of the GC. However, maybe it was Contador's goal to put some time into Armstrong before tomorrow's ITT. Sure, Contador creamed Lance in the opening time trial, but (as far as I know) they have never faced up to each other in a "full-length" one. Fact is, it is hard to tell what Lance is still capable of in that regard and maybe Contador was thinking about that. (And do not forget about Wiggins either - I am sure he will do pretty well tomorrow if he is not too cooked after today!)

 

[Publicus]

I agree with many here that Contador's attack was not the smartest thing as he did not gained all that much and hurt two of his teammates (one of whom at least helped AC some) in terms of the GC. However, maybe it was Contador's goal to put some time into Armstrong before tomorrow's ITT. Sure, Contador creamed Lance in the opening time trial, but (as far as I know) they have never faced up to each other in a "full-length" one. Fact is, it is hard to tell what Lance is still capable of in that regard and maybe Contador was thinking about that. (And do not forget about Wiggins either - I am sure he will do pretty well tomorrow if he is not too cooked after today!)

Well knowing Lance's ambitions, being up on him 4 minutes+ probably lets Contador breathe a little easier.

 

[Chomsky]

Here is a quote from JB regarding AC's attack on Kloden.

As a time trial specialist we knew Wiggins was the real danger," said General Manager Johan Bruyneel. "At the moment the Schlecks went Contador and Kl&#246]

From the same article LA talks about getting caught out by Frank.

Responding to comments that he seems to have found new legs, Lance commented, “Well I have been caught out tactically. I don’t follow the accelerations of the other guys and I have to work a bit with the other teams. I didn’t go until I thought I could get away but maybe I should have gone earlier.” Asked about his overall chances at the Tour, he said, " It would be nice to be on the podium so in the time trial I’ll do my best and then go up the Ventoux as fast as I can."

 

[Futuroscope]

I agree with many here that Contador's attack was not the smartest thing as he did not gained all that much and hurt two of his teammates (one of whom at least helped AC some) in terms of the GC. However, maybe it was Contador's goal to put some time into Armstrong before tomorrow's ITT. Sure, Contador creamed Lance in the opening time trial, but (as far as I know) they have never faced up to each other in a "full-length" one. Fact is, it is hard to tell what Lance is still capable of in that regard and maybe Contador was thinking about that. (And do not forget about Wiggins either - I am sure he will do pretty well tomorrow if he is not too cooked after today!)

the attack wasnt the smartest thing and did hurt the team abit.if you only look at the GC it didnt hurt contador.

the (failed) attack hurt contador in another way tho..it gives the schlecks positive energy for the mount ventoux stage.

 

[Publicus]

Here is a quote from JB regarding AC's attack on Kloden.



From the same article LA talks about getting caught out by Frank.

Your forgot to mention that JB will be heading up Lance's new team that is being announced tomorrow. I think AC knows that JB is thinking about Lance's chances more than his own and considers his "advice" accordingly.

JB backed the wrong horse in my opinion.

 

[Publicus]

the attack wasnt the smartest thing and did hurt the team abit.if you only look at the GC it didnt hurt contador.

the (failed) attack hurt contador in another way tho..it gives the schlecks positive energy for the mount ventoux stage.

Mount Ventoux isn't as steep as Colombiere or Romme. And there won't be two 1st category and one hellacious 2nd category climbs before the climb to Mount Ventoux. What Contador has to worry about is going too soon.

 

[Azdak6]

What gives you that impression?

The general tone of comments and posts. I can almost see Armstrong and Leipheimer shaking their heads when they write. I also get the impression when they are shown on some interview questions as well.

I suspect there are some generational and cultural differences.

I don't look at it as "good vs bad" or "right vs wrong" --it's just the way things are. I fault neither Armstrong's "exasperation" nor Contador's chafing at what he probably feels are the old geezers holding him back. I enjoy the human element as well as the racing--and they are just human beings, warts and all (albeit gifted athletes).

 

[cody_57]

Hindsight has the habit of always being 20/20. It appears as if most of the comments here come from people who have been watching the Lance train over the last decade or so. (Not meaning "the Lance train" as an insult, just don't want to list all the teams ) That was: get the jersey and then just control the other hopefuls.

Think Eddy ever sat back and preserved his lead? The hell with that: atack, attack, attack.

Makes me want to dust off my bike and start riding again.

 

[lean mean &green]

What Contador has to worry about is going too soon.

true, contador should ride conservatively on the lower slopes. a late attack should secure the stage win and be a nice exclamation point on a 2nd tour victory.

do we even need to watch the rest of this thing?

 

[Publicus]

The general tone of comments and posts. I can almost see Armstrong and Leipheimer shaking their heads when they write. I also get the impression when they are shown on some interview questions as well.

I suspect there are some generational and cultural differences.

I don't look at it as "good vs bad" or "right vs wrong" --it's just the way things are. I fault neither Armstrong's "exasperation" nor Contador's chafing at what he probably feels are the old geezers holding him back. I enjoy the human element as well as the racing--and they are just human beings, warts and all (albeit gifted athletes).

I thought you were talking about Armstrong and Leipheimer. I think I understand why they don't like him (1) NEVER had what he has in the way of physical talents and (2) the other doesn't accept that his time has passed. They expect deference from him that Lance never had to give to another person and that Levi hasn't really earned.

It's pure Alpha male stuff. In Levi's case, Alpha male wannabe stuff.