Contador Isolates Self

[Psalmon]

That's what happened today--the Schlecks counter-attacked Sastre's initial attack and then all hell broke loose. Contador was covering attacks and riding wheels. Kloden wasn't setting tempo for him or chasing down attacks. He was just riding AC's wheel . . . until he couldn't. It's unfortunate and the kid clearly feels bad, but this attempt to indict him is getting ridiculous. I don't recall ANYONE suggesting that Lance hold his fire or take into consideration Azevedo's or Landis' podium potential when making decisions on the road.

No indictment vis a vis the podium here. I see it as a matter of holding the yellow jersey, not the podium. If any other team had the MJ, do you think they'd care about the podium? That's an unimportant subplot.

Alberto's "sin" (so to speak) was putting what he's earned (and the team has too) in danger unnecessarily, that's all.

We'll never know, but looking back, it seemed the attacks at 1.7 km to go over the top were over. Kloden may have held on or at least been closer --- to help AC if something went wrong on the descent. With Kloden pedaling squares, they should have sat on and stayed quiet.

Want an indictment? Riis should have thought it or the Schlecks should have seen losing Kloden as an opportunity, both for the danger to Contador or podium positions vs. Lance and Wig. Only, lucky for them, Alberto beat them to it.

Anyone remember Lance's famous 2003 "dehydration" ITT (finished all white mouthed). The next day Ulrich and his team didn't really hit Lance until the Bonascre at the very end, a lost opportunity. Lance masked well his weakness that whole day (lost only 8 seconds or so) to recover and slaughter everyone on Luz Ardiden 2 days later. Bianchi should have laid it all on the line the day after the ITT, but let Lance off the mat.

Moral: hit 'em and isolate when they are weaker. I didn't see that from Riis and was surprised.

 

[Publicus]

Go through the TTT results and look at the time gains vs all the other GC contendors..........

Didn't Lance increase his time as well? He was pushing for his position, just like Contador, Kloden, Leipheimer, etc. I thought you had some you were going to say he did something today to assist Contador to improve his time.

Someone's already done the analysis on removing the TTT and you'd be surprised to find that Alberto Contador is still sitting atop the leaderboard.

 

[scribe]

Moral: hit 'em and isolate when they are weaker. I didn't see that from Riis and was surprised.

They ran out of mountain. That is the only reason they couldn't convert. It was funny watching the bros stalk up the mountain after Contador. They looked like a couple of cats fixin to bat at a mouse.

 

[Publicus]

No indictment vis a vis the podium here. I see it as a matter of holding the yellow jersey, not the podium. If any other team had the MJ, do you think they'd care about the podium? That's an unimportant subplot.

Alberto's "sin" (so to speak) was putting what he's earned (and the team has too) in danger unnecessarily, that's all.

We'll never know, but looking back, it seemed the attacks at 1.7 km to go over the top were over. Kloden may have held on or at least been closer --- to help AC if something went wrong on the descent. With Kloden pedaling squares, they should have sat on and stayed quiet.

Want an indictment? Riis should have thought it or the Schlecks should have seen losing Kloden as an opportunity, both for the danger to Contador or podium positions vs. Lance and Wig. Only, lucky for them, Alberto beat them to it.

Anyone remember Lance's famous 2003 "dehydration" ITT (finished all white mouthed). The next day Ulrich and his team didn't really hit Lance until the Bonascre at the very end, a lost opportunity. Lance masked well his weakness that whole day (lost only 8 seconds or so) to recover and slaughter everyone on Luz Ardiden 2 days later. Bianchi should have laid it all on the line the day after the ITT, but let Lance off the mat.

Moral: hit 'em and isolate when they are weaker. I didn't see that from Riis and was surprised.

Fair enough. I was surprised that the Schlecks stopped attacking on the Colombiere, which is probably what made Contador believe that he could gamble on an attack like he did. I didn't expect Kloden to pop like that.

 

[Anonymous]

its all irelevant of course, when AC is stripped of the win once hes visited the clinic.. To be honest its pi55ing me off watching him dance his way to victory... :/

 

[scribe]

Didn't Lance increase his time as well? He was pushing for his position, just like Contador, Kloden, Leipheimer, etc. I thought you had some you were going to say he did something today to assist Contador to improve his time.

Someone's already done the analysis on removing the TTT and you'd be surprised to find that Alberto Contador is still sitting atop the leaderboard.

Yes, but he would be in a very tenuous position entering the ITT tomorrow. A mediocre day and a couple of key rivals will take a minute on him.

 

[Publicus]

They ran out of mountain. That is the only reason they couldn't convert. It was funny watching the bros stalk up the mountain after Contador. They looked like a couple of cats fixin to bat at a mouse.

When did that happen? They all looked absolutely drained after Contador's attack (and frankly the Schleck's looked spent before he attacked).

 

[scribe]

When did that happen? They all looked absolutely drained after Contador's attack (and frankly the Schleck's looked spent before he attacked).

You're a funny guy.

 

[he_man]

AC tried to put as much as time possible between him and LA..

DR Ferriar posted something interesting saying LA would do better than AC in the ITT..

dont think for a sec either dont know this.. and with Astana backing LA and not AC..

chapeaux , AC had no choice.. all three Astana members will be on different teams next year..

AC thinking.. 5 more meals.. but yellow for life

 

[nslckevin]

Just respond to the nonsense that Armstrong stayed with Wiggins because he was sacrificing for Contador. But Frank only escaped because of Lance's inattentiveness, which one could argue (as I have) contributed to Lance's losses today (and increased wear on Kloden).

Sacrifice would be too strong of a word, please don't put them in my mouth. LA didn't make that split because he couldn't. Whether it was because he was weak, not paying attention, or because members of both the illuminati AND the Tri Lateral Commision were holding onto his seatpost doesn't matter.

LA got dropped. But once he got dropped he did not do anything to help Wiggins like any good team mate should do. He tried to go across alone and when Wiggins got on he sat up. Again, as a good team mate should. When he COULD get away alone he did, again as a good team mate should.

No one that I've seen has said anything to the affect that AC is leading by any reason other than that AC has performed better when it counted. That said, he is leading by more than he would be if for instance LA rode selfishly today and towed Wiggins up "toward" AC. I say "toward", because I suspect he wouldn't have made it had it wanted to or tried. The gap wouldn't have been 2 minutes though. Again, we're just taking about how big of a cushion AC has. I doubt that AC will lose significant time to Wiggins tomorrow (if any). He will cream the Schleck's tomorrow and have an even nicer cushion on Ventoux.

The tour is his to lose. It is a good time for him (AC) to be prudent.

Hell, if he was smart, he'd have AK or LA attack on Ventoux. Give them a chance to do well, make the Schleck's chase and then counter. Worst case is AK or LA win and pick up 30 seconds. Best case, he looks like a great and generous leader and maybe even wins the stage himself after everybody else beats themselves up.

Kevin

 

[grumpyphil]

Only time will tell, but my guess is that a Contador 2010 with a good team around him will be much better than a Contador 2009 with the fox in the hen house.

THAT is ridiculous! How much better a team could ANYONE hope for? WHERE exactly would this "better" team come from? You think Armstrongs, Klodens, Leipheimers are falling outta the sky?
It's becoming pretty obvious that Mr. C is not the brightest bulb in the box. What's he gonna do, go to work for Saxo? You gotta be kidding me. This guy is a great rider but he's going to get frozen out in some marginal team with a marginal director. Consequently, he's gonna wind up with with just so so results in the end. History is full of Contador's...."I coulda been a contender."
To be one of the greats, you have to possess intelligence. It's pretty obvious that this climber can mash the pedals but lacks the ability to analyze the situation.
Having said that, No one can take away from his Grand Tour wins. That's irrefutable. One has to ask how many he has how given up by his actions today.

 

[rick bensco]

What if Ac falls?

AC tried to put as much as time possible between him and LA..

DR Ferriar posted something interesting saying LA would do better than AC in the ITT..

dont think for a sec either dont know this.. and with Astana backing LA and not AC..

chapeaux , AC had no choice.. all three Astana members will be on different teams next year..

AC thinking.. 5 more meals.. but yellow for life

AC hurt his team and all his future team mates. He is stupid in team sportsmanship. Who will trust him in the future. What if he falls tomorrow and LA and Klodin are now to far back to slot into first. He hurt his TEAM for what?

 

[uphillstruggle]

Lance did aid towards making Wiggins pop by making him do the work to limit the loses (it would have been incredibly unporfessional to do otherwise) then hit him when he was spent to gain time for himself. I suppose the only question is whether LA saw this as the best way to rid himself of Wiggins, who could conceivably beat him tomorrow, or whether he was playing the team mate. In the end we won't know for sure but Astana came out of today pretty dam well. I really do not know why everyone is slating AC for having a go at the top, if it had worked - more time on AS - if not no worries.

Yes he might of got into trouble on the descent and needed AK and LA might of put 4 minutes into the whole field but he didn't. So what's the trouble? AK lost some time which he was ok with (hence telling AC to attack), Lance gained on Wiggo and AC is in yellow.

 

[Coach Hawk]

Well, you might find it unlikely, but JB said that Contador would be THE team leader. On the record, publicly, repeatedly before the Tour began. So we both agree I have a point.

And you seem to imply that because Astana as sponsor is lacking in the integrity department, it is ok for JB to turn around and screw Contador in exchange, which I find odd.

In general I think (yes, contrary to the opinion of many) that AC has been reasonably protected. I realize that is NOT to the exclusion of LA, but you have not seen him having to chase things down all by himself except when he was the only one who could.

And I'm not saying that Astana screwing the team gives JB the right to act dishonestly/dishonorably, but it does provide him with a lot of impetus to look for ways to protect the team (i.e. bring in LA and find another sponsor.) I have no problem with him bruising AC's ego by doing that.

Plus, I think the fact that AC IS IN YELLOW, provides an awful lot of mitigation to the argument that he's been screwed by the team.

 

[scribe]

Yes. If yellow is the color of being screwed by your team, there will be 150ish other cyclists showing up tomorrow with vaseline.

 

[Psalmon]

Hell, if he was smart, he'd have AK or LA attack on Ventoux. Give them a chance to do well, make the Schleck's chase and then counter. Worst case is AK or LA win and pick up 30 seconds. Best case, he looks like a great and generous leader and maybe even wins the stage himself after everybody else beats themselves up.

Kevin

See, there's some good thinking about team tactics sans all the politics. If they had the legs (and right positions/spacing after the ITT), that is exactly the right move.

Then everybody skewers Lance for pulling a Hinault, but who cares? Put the other teams on the defensive, if Lance get's too far up the road, Alberto could counter and minimize, but he probably wouldn't have to.

Tactics on the Ventoux will also heavily depend on the weather and wind up there. BTW, Annecy is looking upper 80s/90, thundershowers, high humidity in the late afternoon. Should be a hot and maybe wet one. Oooooo.

 

[crosett]

That's what happened today--the Schlecks counter-attacked Sastre's initial attack and then all hell broke loose. Contador was covering attacks and riding wheels. Kloden wasn't setting tempo for him or chasing down attacks. He was just riding AC's wheel . . . until he couldn't. It's unfortunate and the kid clearly feels bad, but this attempt to indict him is getting ridiculous. I don't recall ANYONE suggesting that Lance hold his fire or take into consideration Azevedo's or Landis' podium potential when making decisions on the road.

Um, what "podium potential"? Going into the final Alpine stage in '04 (also Le Grand Bornand), Azevedo was 5+ minutes off the podium, and Landis was in 27th - not exactly a setup for a podium sweep in Paris. But going over the Croix Fry, Lance told Floyd to go ahead and attack, hoping Floyd could win the stage. Unfortunately, Ullrich chased in support of Kloden, and in the end Lance came around Kloden for the win.

Contador's move today was completely boneheaded. This wasn't Contador "making a decision on the road"; it was Contador indulging his own ego. Here's what you really don't recall Lance ever doing: attacking a group with a teammate in it and failing to get clear! In his yellow jersey years, when Lance went, he didn't get pulled back. That's also been true even as he's played the support role the last couple of days, sitting in and making other rivals work when Contador attacked, and then bridging up solo rather than acting as a launchpad for rivals with podium potential rivals to take time from teammates with podium potential.

Bottom line: the Schleck Bros had to ride hard in front over the Colombiere to put time into Wiggins and Armstrong, but they weren't throwing down any serious attacks to shake off Kloden. Even though Lance obviously had the kick to drop Wiggins, he dutifully watched the move go away and avoided doing anything to threaten a teammate's position. But Alberto went ahead and did exactly that, and now Astana is 1-4-5 going into the TT instead of 1-2-3.

But, hey - no chance he'll have a jour sans on the Ventoux...

 

[fulcrum]

I have no problem with him bruising AC's ego by doing that.

Plus, I think the fact that AC IS IN YELLOW, provides an awful lot of mitigation to the argument that he's been screwed by the team.

My problem is not that JB is bruising AC's ego. My problem is that JB is acting dishonestly towards AC by promising the leadership of the team first and then renegading on his commitment. It has nothing to do with AC's ego and everything to do with integrity.

And AC is in yellow because he is much stronger than Lance. AC went out of his way to ensure that Lance wouldn't get yellow by attacking in Andorra, and AC attacked, attacked, attacked at every turn. His yellow has nothing to do with the support JB or the team gave him.

 

[frizzlefry]

And AC is in yellow because he is much stronger than Lance. AC went out of his way to ensure that Lance wouldn't get yellow by attacking in Andorra, and AC attacked, attacked, attacked at every turn. His yellow has nothing to do with the support JB or the team gave him.

What? The only reason AC is in yellow is cause he's got LA, AK, had LL, and rest of Astana. The Schlecks and Saxo would be tag teaming him to death if not for LA, AK, LL etc.
Take Astana out of the TdF and put AC on any other team and he's done. Maybe Garmin could support him some, but you saw what happened to them on today's climb.
Put him on Silence/Lotto with Evans. Not good.
Put him on Rabo with Menchov. Not good.
Maybe LiquiGas but even they are not that strong.

The Schlecks would have a field day with AC if he didnt have Astana.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

My problem is not that JB is bruising AC's ego. My problem is that JB is acting dishonestly towards AC by promising the leadership of the team first and then renegading on his commitment. It has nothing to do with AC's ego and everything to do with integrity.

And AC is in yellow because he is much stronger than Lance. AC went out of his way to ensure that Lance wouldn't get yellow by attacking in Andorra, and AC attacked, attacked, attacked at every turn. His yellow has nothing to do with the support JB or the team gave him.

You're conflating (in multiple threads) being the leader of the team, and being the leader of a team that it is exclusively dedicated to you. Many if not most teams have a clear leader. No teams in this year Tour, including Astana, have a team leader to whom the team is exclusively dedicated (no other goals, including stage wins by other riders, other jerseys, others placing on GC, team comp, etc.). I don't understand why you expect Astana to be different from all the other teams.

 

[fulcrum]

What? The only reason AC is in yellow is cause he's got LA, AK, had LL, and rest of Astana. The Schlecks and Saxo would be tag teaming him to death if not for LA, AK, LL etc.

Keep dreaming. AC is in yellow because he finished the prologue second, 20 seconds ahead of LA. Because he attacked in Andorra, taking another 20 seconds. Because he attacked in the alps, getting 1.30 and 2 minutes from LA respectively. He would have been in yellow in any other decent team that came within 2 minutes of Astana in the TTT.

LA has done shit for AC, except sit on Wiggings wheel. Same goes for LL. AK has helped LA more than he's helped AC.

 

[fulcrum]

You're conflating (in multiple threads) being the leader of the team, and being the leader of a team that it is exclusively dedicated to you. Many if not most teams have a clear leader. No teams in this year Tour, including Astana, have a team leader to whom the team is exclusively dedicated (no other goals, including stage wins by other riders, other jerseys, others placing on GC, team comp, etc.). I don't understand why you expect Astana to be different from all the other teams.

Name one thread where I have mentioned or requested EXCLUSIVE dedication to AC by Astana and you've won the argument. Don't name a single thread and it is clear you are starting to make stuff up.

 

[Publicus]

Yes, but he would be in a very tenuous position entering the ITT tomorrow. A mediocre day and a couple of key rivals will take a minute on him.

Sounds like a whole lot of "woulda" "coulda" "shoulda". Which at the end of the day isn't proof of anything but your ability to argue about events that didn't occur. More power to you, but that's just not proof of anything more than your powers of imagination.

 

[frizzlefry]

Keep dreaming. AC is in yellow because he finished the prologue second, 20 seconds ahead of LA. Because he attacked in Andorra, taking another 20 seconds. Because he attacked in the alps, getting 1.30 and 2 minutes from LA respectively. He would have been in yellow in any other decent team that came within 2 minutes of Astana in the TTT.

LA has done shit for AC, except sit on Wiggings wheel. Same goes for LL. AK has helped LA more than he's helped AC.

The Schlecks would have a field day with AC if he didnt have Astana.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Name one thread where I have mentioned or requested EXCLUSIVE dedication to AC by Astana and you've won the argument. Don't name a single thread and it is clear you are starting to make stuff up.

Right here in this thread you wrote:

My problem is that JB is acting dishonestly towards AC by promising the leadership of the team first and then renegading on his commitment.

How has JB failed to meet his commitment of giving AC the leadership of the team? In particular, how has he failed to do this, unless by "leadership" you mean the team is exclusively dedicated to him in the way that Postal/Disco was exclusively dedicated to LA?


EDIT:

In the Stage 17 thread you also wrote this:

Total team dedication to one leader on GC is what you seem to be expecting out of Astana. Why?

Because we are talking about professional cycling and the TdF, not an episode of "herding of the cats".

I interpreted that to mean you agreed you were expecting total team dedication to one leader, implying exclusive dedication.