Contador Isolates Self

[autologous]

Even though Lance obviously had the kick to drop Wiggins, he dutifully watched the move go away and avoided doing anything to threaten a teammate's position.

garbage. he didn't "obviously" have the kick to drop wiggins until after wiggins and vdvelde had buried themselves for endless minutes trying to catch the shreks and AC. If he had the kick he would have gone at the time.

he didn't dutifully watch the move go ahead. he stalled and then couldn't respond when frank shrek went up the road. yes, he played team mate after that and helped "neutralize" wiggins, but that was the only option he had left at the time. It wasn't a tactical or team support decision to not follow frank, it was his legs telling him he couldn't.

Lance willingly gave up 2 minutes to the shreks? yeah. sure.

here's Lance ruing the fact that he didn't follow frank (velonews)


“I got caught out tactically a bit. I didn’t follow the accelerations and then tactically I have to stay with other teams,” Armstrong said. “I was stuck there with Wiggins and I couldn’t go until the end when it was steeper. In hindsight, I probably should have gone with the earlier accelerations.”

he was only stuck tactically because he didn't/couldn't follow frank.

of course he won't let on that he couldn't physically do it, but watch the tape of frank leaving him standing still, tells you all you need to know

 

[Publicus]

Sacrifice would be too strong of a word, please don't put them in my mouth. LA didn't make that split because he couldn't. Whether it was because he was weak, not paying attention, or because members of both the illuminati AND the Tri Lateral Commision were holding onto his seatpost doesn't matter.

LA got dropped. But once he got dropped he did not do anything to help Wiggins like any good team mate should do. He tried to go across alone and when Wiggins got on he sat up. Again, as a good team mate should. When he COULD get away alone he did, again as a good team mate should.

No one that I've seen has said anything to the affect that AC is leading by any reason other than that AC has performed better when it counted. That said, he is leading by more than he would be if for instance LA rode selfishly today and towed Wiggins up "toward" AC. I say "toward", because I suspect he wouldn't have made it had it wanted to or tried. The gap wouldn't have been 2 minutes though. Again, we're just taking about how big of a cushion AC has. I doubt that AC will lose significant time to Wiggins tomorrow (if any). He will cream the Schleck's tomorrow and have an even nicer cushion on Ventoux.

The tour is his to lose. It is a good time for him (AC) to be prudent.

Hell, if he was smart, he'd have AK or LA attack on Ventoux. Give them a chance to do well, make the Schleck's chase and then counter. Worst case is AK or LA win and pick up 30 seconds. Best case, he looks like a great and generous leader and maybe even wins the stage himself after everybody else beats themselves up.

Kevin

1. The original point I responded to, which you took issue with, was that Lance IMPROVED Contador's position. My response was to your suggestion that him sitting on Wiggins' wheel was evidence of him improving Contador's position. I disagreed with your assessment. And Lance in fact at a minimum opened the door for the acceleration by not being attentive. The fact that he created the situation and was thus stuck with it isn't proof that he improved Contador's position, it's just proof that he was stuck with an untenable situation.

2. A good domestique wouldn't have done anything include trying to bridge across. He doesn't get brownie points because his attempt was ineffective. In fact he loses good teammate points for TRYING.

3. Wiggins' time losses had NOTHING to do with Armstrong and everything to do with the Schlecks and Contador's pace. As for Armstrong's time loss today, I won't speculate how much time he would have lost if he had been able to bridge up to the main group, or if he tried. Too many unknown variables.

 

[palmerq]

I think there is too many chiefs and not enough indians in this astana team, although i heard someone say that before about ome other team, i forget who. But I think it is certainly true for this team, it´s a good thing for alberto he has been good enough for thi not to effect him so much yet, lets hope nothing goes wrong on saturday...

 

[Futuroscope]

As usual the logic of your post assumes that we should take whatever AC said at face value no matter how many people disagree with what he said and that we should always assume JB is conspiring against AC and is of course lying.

I know you hate LA and JB and you might even believe these things you post. But your posts not only distort reality but the laws of probability. To believe your posts the entire world, media, press, other teams, and AC's teammates have all been involved in a vast conspiracy against AC.

The bottmline is AC's attack was wrong and not only hurt Kloden's podium chances but endangered AC's chances at the yellow jersey by isolating him. JB was entirely correct when he told AC not to attack. AC just compounds the situation making it worse by offering excuses and distortions of the truth. You argue that it is JB's fault that he continually does not follow team orders, has alienated his teammates, makes poor decisions, has problems telling the truth and he does not get along with others. There is a reason why AC does not get along with people and no one will ever say anything positive or nice about his character. Where there is smoke there is usually a fire and in this case its arson. No matter how much you want to blame JB for AC's wounds the wounds are self inflicted.

why are you constanly making things up or exaggerating stuff?

contador is the team leader and he can do what the **** he wants. as JB said..astana is there to win the TDF...and thats what contador is doing for them.

 

[Publicus]

The Schlecks would have a field day with AC if he didnt have Astana.

Please expound. He covered almost all of the major attacks (Armstrong covered I believe 2 of Frank's, NONE of Andy's) and rode without assistance after the attacks started. Kloden was just along for the ride. Never took any pulls or counter-attacked.

So again, please explain how they would have a field day with AC without Astana?

 

[biker77]

LA has very clearly demonstrated what a true cyclist he is during the 2009 tdf. I do not care about the "fanboy" or "doper" comments that some feel is necessary. You can all f*** off.

I am enjoying the tour more than in the last 3 years and am inspired.

The greatest tdf rider in history has come out of retirement to not win. The sport of cycling was in limbo without LA.

 

[Publicus]

Right here in this thread you wrote:


How has JB failed to meet his commitment of giving AC the leadership of the team? In particular, how has he failed to do this, unless by "leadership" you mean the team is exclusively dedicated to him in the way that Postal/Disco was exclusively dedicated to LA?


EDIT:

In the Stage 17 thread you also wrote this:



I interpreted that to mean you agreed you were expecting total team dedication to one leader, implying exclusive dedication.

He should have been the soled dedicated leader. 26 year old won all of the Grand Tours he entered in the last two years. No injuries. Multiple stage and overall victories this year. Versus a 38 year old who has been out of competition for almost 4 years, recovering from a broken collar bone and ZERO wins. That's a no brainer for everyone apparently except JB

 

[Futuroscope]

He should have been the soled dedicated leader. 26 year old won all of the Grand Tours he entered in the last two years. No injuries. Multiple stage and overall victories this year. Versus a 38 year old who has been out of competition for almost 4 years, recovering from a broken collar bone and ZERO wins. That's a no brainer for everyone apparently except JB

+1...............

 

[yourwelcome]

He should have been the soled dedicated leader. 26 year old won all of the Grand Tours he entered in the last two years. No injuries. Multiple stage and overall victories this year. Versus a 38 year old who has been out of competition for almost 4 years, recovering from a broken collar bone and ZERO wins. That's a no brainer for everyone apparently except JB

Does your brain not compute that the 38 year old in question is a 7 time Tour winner and sponsors wet dream, and that makes things different enough to allow him a shot at yellow as well as AC?

Still - 39 pages about a small acceleration that AC seemed to regret the moment he saw AK was being left behind. Funny headline and true that he isolated himself for a few km but the amount of analysis is unreal.

 

[Publicus]

Does your brain not compute that the 38 year old in question is a 7 time Tour winner and sponsors wet dream, and that makes things different enough to allow him a shot at yellow as well as AC?

Still - 39 pages about a small acceleration that AC seemed to regret the moment he saw AK was being left behind. Funny headline and true that he isolated himself for a few km but the amount of analysis is unreal.

My brain computes just fine. He won his last Tour 3.5 years ago. And while I understand he is a sponsor's wet dream, he should have taken that party some where else like his own team--which he is apparently doing. He won't win another Grand Tour.

 

[frizzlefry]

Does your brain not compute that the 38 year old in question is a 7 time Tour winner and sponsors wet dream, and that makes things different enough to allow him a shot at yellow as well as AC?

Still - 39 pages about a small acceleration that AC seemed to regret the moment he saw AK was being left behind. Funny headline and true that he isolated himself for a few km but the amount of analysis is unreal.

Just listened to the interview with Levi this morning. He said Astana should just follow on todays stage and wait for the TT. AC obviously didnt listen.

 

[Publicus]

Just listened to the interview with Levi this morning. He said Astana should just follow on todays stage and wait for the TT. AC obviously didnt listen.

I'm going to guess Levi wasn't in the team meeting this morning, so his Tuesday morning quarterbacking is just his opinion.

 

[frizzlefry]

Funny headline and true that he isolated himself for a few km but the amount of analysis is unreal.

go back and read all the stage threads on this forum. The analysis is nothing but what LA did that day. If he sits on, he isnt helping AC. If he attacks, its pointless, and he is not being a team player for AC.
Its astounding how much the posters on this forum devote their time to analyzing LA instead of just watching the race.

 

[frizzlefry]

I'm going to guess Levi wasn't in the team meeting this morning, so his Tuesday morning quarterbacking is just his opinion.

yea but it was the right opinion.

 

[scribe]

A good portion of that team might as well as been in California for most all of the team meetings.

 

[Publicus]

yea but it was the right opinion.

It was don't disagree one bit. I also know that I wasn't on the road today with Contador and Kloden. Contador thought he had a winning move, but it didn't work and he shut it down relatively quickly. I'm going to go on a limb and say that that wasn't the first time a cyclist has misread a situation on the Astana team today. Still in yellow, with more time into the GC candidate he was most worried about (wiggins). Net balance it was an excellent win for Contador and Astana. Of course you wouldn't know it from the screams for Contador's head.

 

[saphblue]

The general tone of comments and posts. I can almost see Armstrong and Leipheimer shaking their heads when they write. I also get the impression when they are shown on some interview questions as well.

I suspect there are some generational and cultural differences.

I don't look at it as "good vs bad" or "right vs wrong" --it's just the way things are. I fault neither Armstrong's "exasperation" nor Contador's chafing at what he probably feels are the old geezers holding him back. I enjoy the human element as well as the racing--and they are just human beings, warts and all (albeit gifted athletes).

Spot on. If people want to paint Contador as the villain, go for it. Personally, I think it's a bit irrational, but I'm neither a hater nor fanboy (or fangirl, in my case) of anyone in the race, so maybe I can't relate with the frustration that people feel. I also don't see how anyone can seriously compare him leaving JB with Heras/Landis/Hamilton. Unless AC ends up with a spectacularly awful team, I don't see him coming unglued. The other thing that comes to mind is that he's had a lot of success and pressure at a relatively young age. Who knows what will happen in the future or how these experiences will change him. If someone told me 15 years ago that LA would win 7 tours, I'd have thought they were nuts. In fact, kudos to anyone who was honestly convinced in the early 90s that LA would be a GT winner. I remember LA being slagged for being egotistical and disrespectful when he was young. Some may say he's still a d***, but personally I think he's changed. Maybe in a decade AC will be getting the hagiographic treatment that LA currently enjoys. Or, maybe he'll never win another Tour. I do feel certain that it's silly to try to say with any precision what his future will be based on the outcome of today's stage.

 

[Futuroscope]

Just listened to the interview with Levi this morning. He said Astana should just follow on todays stage and wait for the TT. AC obviously didnt listen.

who cares what levi says? contador is the team leader and he should attack if he wants to and feels like he has the legs. that being said, the attack didnt turn out well for astana (as he dropped klöden) although i dont think it hurt contador.

 

[Gamhugo]

AC not too bright

Maybe LA stil a d*** but you would have never seen him do what AC did today as a team leader. TITLE of team leader means to reward those who work so hard for you. The move was stupid!!! it was up to the brothers to do all the work. Astana had a great chance to be 1,2,3 in Paris and a leader an current Yelloy Jersey what better reward.

Yesterday when LA come back to the leaders he could have blown by, becuase he was flying.....instead he slowed down to help the leader AC.

No doubt AC is a great talent and will probably win more tours, but he must think on all possibilities prior to attacking. He knew he was in the wrong hoping Kloden would get back to him by looking back over and over.

Say what you want about LA, his teams would have given their all for him, Landis, Hincapie, Herras, Popo and the list goes on. He also gave his all for his teammates.

 

[nslckevin]

How about them apples?

Are you Sarah Palin?

Sorry, but I though we were having a discussion about what we saw, not trying to score *** points on an online forum.

My mistake.

Kevin

 

[scribe]

I am leading in the King of the Retards points standing.

 

[Blakeslee]

Contador did the right thing by attacking when he did. While he probably still would have had a big enough gap over Wiggins if he hadn't attacked, he completely slammed the door on Wiggins chances of winning the GC. Wiggins was still close enough on GC to potentially get close to Contador if Wiggins rides a great time trial tomorrow, now Contador has nothing to worry about.

The biggest loser from Contador's attack was Kloden. Armstrong was able to catch Kloden and Kloden is now probably too far back to be able to make the podium. Armstrong himself was not really hurt much by Contador's attack, he had already lost most of the time before the attack and the attack did not result in Armstrong losing much more time to the Shlecks. Armstrong is still close enough to challenge for second place if he can ride a strong time trial tomorrow.

 

[nslckevin]

LA has done shit for AC, except sit on Wiggings wheel. Same goes for LL. AK has helped LA more than he's helped AC.

Forgetting that the two riders in question are Armstrong and your man crush Contador, do you REALLY expect that a team should throw a rider who is SECOND ON GC under the bus for his leader WHEN THERE IS NO NEED TO??? Are you really that ****ing stupid?

Kevin

 

[LargusMeans]

I'm not taking the bait

Honestly, who cares... Is Alberto talented? No doubt... is he a phenom? Too soon to tell, honestly.

Eddy Merckx was a phenom... Alberto ain't no Eddy Mercks.

You are a total noob.

Lets look at facts.

Only five cyclists have won all three of the Grand Tours during their career.
AC is one of them.

Nine riders have achieved a double by winning two grand tours in the same year.
AC is one of them.

Lance is not either.

Lance is tied for 6th overall with 7 wins at 38 years of age.
If AC wins this tour he is tied for 10th overall with 4 wins at 26 years of age. And has 4 more Grand Tour wins at this point then LA had at 26.

And just to make things clear, Armstrong ain't no Merckx either. All 11 wins before the age of 29. He won all the great classics (Milan-San Remo, Tour of Flanders, Paris-Roubaix, Liege-Bastogne-Liege, Tour of Lombardy) more then twice for a total of 19 wins. His record of 525 victories, including 445 as a professional, is untouchable. He is the only rider to win all of the classifications (overall, mountains and points jerseys) in a single year at the Tour de France (1969) and the Giro d’Italia (1968).

Nobody is a Merckx, and trying to put LA in the same breath is a farce and idiocy. Nobody is trying to compare AC to Merckx. Please think before posting.

 

[scribe]

There is no way he was thinking about Wiggens when he attacked. He only understands what is directly in front of him (partially)