Contador vs. Froome

[contador_attacks]

Re: Re:

Interestingly he doesn't mention the rarest talent of all the rare talents - 4 times Tour de France winner Chris Froome.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
Froome, in my opinion, isn't in that category. I'll leave it at that.
The unique talent of the riders mentioned by me earlier is undisputable. I'm talking about real riders.

Saying that a black bicycle is prettier than a white one is an opinion. What you're stating, however, isn't an opinion, but bs, unfortunately.

Pidgeons. Chess. why?

Fanboys. Cognitive ability temporarily decreased. Why?

I'm talking about pure talent. Froome came out of nowhere.

Look at the names mentioned by me earlier.

Fanboy? Are you talking about yourself?

By the way, Wiggins, obviously, is on that list.

Did you, finally, get the point?

 

[Haddock]

Re: Re:

Interestingly he doesn't mention the rarest talent of all the rare talents - 4 times Tour de France winner Chris Froome.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
Froome, in my opinion, isn't in that category. I'll leave it at that.
The unique talent of the riders mentioned by me earlier is undisputable. I'm talking about real riders.

Saying that a black bicycle is prettier than a white one is an opinion. What you're stating, however, isn't an opinion, but bs, unfortunately.

Pidgeons. Chess. why?

Fanboys. Cognitive ability temporarily decreased. Why?

I'm talking about pure talent. Froome came out of nowhere.

Look at the names mentioned by me earlier.

Fanboy? Are you talking about yourself?

By the way, Wiggins, obviously, is on that list.

Did you, finally, get the point?

Froome's "coming out of nowhere" can be explained by:
1. Being overweight (20 lbs heavier)
2. Having Bilharzia

How do you explain Contador's decline? He was only 30 when he returned from his ban?

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

Interestingly he doesn't mention the rarest talent of all the rare talents - 4 times Tour de France winner Chris Froome.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
Froome, in my opinion, isn't in that category. I'll leave it at that.
The unique talent of the riders mentioned by me earlier is undisputable. I'm talking about real riders.

Saying that a black bicycle is prettier than a white one is an opinion. What you're stating, however, isn't an opinion, but bs, unfortunately.

Pidgeons. Chess. why?

Fanboys. Cognitive ability temporarily decreased. Why?

I'm talking about pure talent. Froome came out of nowhere.

Look at the names mentioned by me earlier.

Fanboy? Are you talking about yourself?

By the way, Wiggins, obviously, is on that list.

Did you, finally, get the point?

Froome's "coming out of nowhere" can be explained by:
1. Being overweight (20 lbs heavier)
2. Having Bilharzia

How do you explain Contador's decline? He was only 30 when he returned from his ban?

No, it can't be explain with that! It's a fairy tale for blind-folded British new cycling fans!

About Contador's decline, I would love to have such decline in which I win 3 GT's!

 

[lenric]

Re: Re:

I'm talking about pure talent. Froome came out of nowhere.

Look at the names mentioned by me earlier.

Fanboy? Are you talking about yourself?

By the way, Wiggins, obviously, is on that list.

Did you, finally, get the point?

Thanks for the laugh. But you have to try harder to offend me.

Anyway, it takes a little more than luck to win the Tour 1 time, as Wiggins had done. It takes a lot more than luck to win it 4 times and being close to win the Vuelta 1 month after the Tour.

You're claiming that some successful riders, just because they have been anonimous throughout the first half of their career, don't have "pure talent". I call them outliers who weren't properly advised/trained/didn't have a good work ethic.

And, as it happens, you're saying that a 4-time TDF winner isn't a "pure talent", yet Samuel Sanchez (if "Sami" is him), Cunego, or even Evans are...

Sorry dude, I really don't get your point. It seems, I'm afraid, that I don't have a pure intelligence.

 

[dacooley]

there are no untalented riders in world tour teams. any multiple grand tours or big one day race winners are just extraterrestrial, their huge talent is not a thing to be questioned. yes, froome not having a rare talent still remains an opinion but that kind of opinion reflects pretty much nothing but personal ill feeling

 

[LaFlorecita]

Edit: wrong thread

 

[Pennino]

Re:

The Fundacion Contador team will go Conti next season and will be a feeder team for Trek-Segafredo led by Basso.

Grande. Will they also race Trek bikes?

 

[Climeon]

Re: Re:

Interestingly he doesn't mention the rarest talent of all the rare talents - 4 times Tour de France winner Chris Froome.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
Froome, in my opinion, isn't in that category. I'll leave it at that.
The unique talent of the riders mentioned by me earlier is undisputable. I'm talking about real riders.

Saying that a black bicycle is prettier than a white one is an opinion. What you're stating, however, isn't an opinion, but bs, unfortunately.

Pidgeons. Chess. why?

Fanboys. Cognitive ability temporarily decreased. Why?

I'm talking about pure talent. Froome came out of nowhere.

Look at the names mentioned by me earlier.

Fanboy? Are you talking about yourself?

By the way, Wiggins, obviously, is on that list.

Did you, finally, get the point?

Sorry to restate what has been said many times before, but re the 'coming out of no-where'. As has been said from many sources Froome had, before and after Bizharia been producing numbers worthy of a GT winner. before Bizharia he had issues of overweightness, great difficulty riding in peloton without wasting energy and youth, after Bizharia he produced the same awesome numbers, and managed finally to show quality at Vuelta.

Secondly, though you are completely wrong on the first, if you were right, would it not be totally fair to say that whatever helped him come out of no-where is something that the other top riders were also using and thus, on the particular level playing field, he is highly highly talented as other riders are?

 

[buchanan]

There is really nothing Froome could ever do to satisfy this guy that he's a talented rider. I mean he's won 4 Tours. Been runner up at Tours and Vueltas (even when fatigued). The only recent Tour he didn't win (2014) is because he crashed out, breaking his hand. He's beaten all comers repeatedly. He's won numerous GT mountain finishes, time trials and even downhill finishes. He's won Dauphines and Romandies, etc.
But in this guy's mind, he doesn't like Froome, therefore his outstanding "logic" concludes Froome is not a real talent.
It's irrelevant to him that Froome was heavier and had bilharzia prior to 2011. Real talents like Bennati, Bettini, Ballan, Pozzato, Devolder, Sami, etc. win Grand Tours even with bilharzia. They're that good.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re:

There is really nothing Froome could ever do to satisfy this guy that he's a talented rider. I mean he's won 4 Tours. Been runner up at Tours and Vueltas (even when fatigued). The only recent Tour he didn't win (2014) is because he crashed out, breaking his hand. He's beaten all comers repeatedly. He's won numerous GT mountain finishes, time trials and even downhill finishes. He's won Dauphines and Romandies, etc.
But in this guy's mind, he doesn't like Froome, therefore his outstanding "logic" concludes Froome is not a real talent.
It's irrelevant to him that Froome was heavier and had bilharzia prior to 2011. Real talents like Bennati, Bettini, Ballan, Pozzato, Devolder, Sami, etc. win Grand Tours even with bilharzia. They're that good.

Bettini's palmares > Froome's palmares and I think it is not close atm.

 

[Blanco]

Re:

There is really nothing Froome could ever do to satisfy this guy that he's a talented rider. I mean he's won 4 Tours. Been runner up at Tours and Vueltas (even when fatigued). The only recent Tour he didn't win (2014) is because he crashed out, breaking his hand. He's beaten all comers repeatedly. He's won numerous GT mountain finishes, time trials and even downhill finishes. He's won Dauphines and Romandies, etc.
But in this guy's mind, he doesn't like Froome, therefore his outstanding "logic" concludes Froome is not a real talent.
It's irrelevant to him that Froome was heavier and had bilharzia prior to 2011. Real talents like Bennati, Bettini, Ballan, Pozzato, Devolder, Sami, etc. win Grand Tours even with bilharzia. They're that good.

You just don't get it. It's clinic stuff, heavy clinic stuff!

 

[burning]

Re: Re:

Interestingly he doesn't mention the rarest talent of all the rare talents - 4 times Tour de France winner Chris Froome.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
Froome, in my opinion, isn't in that category. I'll leave it at that.
The unique talent of the riders mentioned by me earlier is undisputable. I'm talking about real riders.

Saying that a black bicycle is prettier than a white one is an opinion. What you're stating, however, isn't an opinion, but bs, unfortunately.

Pidgeons. Chess. why?

Fanboys. Cognitive ability temporarily decreased. Why?

I'm talking about pure talent. Froome came out of nowhere.

Look at the names mentioned by me earlier.

Fanboy? Are you talking about yourself?

By the way, Wiggins, obviously, is on that list.

Did you, finally, get the point?

Sorry to restate what has been said many times before, but re the 'coming out of no-where'. As has been said from many sources Froome had, before and after Bizharia been producing numbers worthy of a GT winner. before Bizharia he had issues of overweightness, great difficulty riding in peloton without wasting energy and youth, after Bizharia he produced the same awesome numbers, and managed finally to show quality at Vuelta.

Secondly, though you are completely wrong on the first, if you were right, would it not be totally fair to say that whatever helped him come out of no-where is something that the other top riders were also using and thus, on the particular level playing field, he is highly highly talented as other riders are?

I thought only taxus kept on believing the badzilla crap after Sky contradicted themselves like 5 times, I am very very surprised that people are still trying to justify his explosion, even Sky stopped doing that in last couple years.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
Froome, in my opinion, isn't in that category. I'll leave it at that.
The unique talent of the riders mentioned by me earlier is undisputable. I'm talking about real riders.

Saying that a black bicycle is prettier than a white one is an opinion. What you're stating, however, isn't an opinion, but bs, unfortunately.

Pidgeons. Chess. why?

Fanboys. Cognitive ability temporarily decreased. Why?

I'm talking about pure talent. Froome came out of nowhere.

Look at the names mentioned by me earlier.

Fanboy? Are you talking about yourself?

By the way, Wiggins, obviously, is on that list.

Did you, finally, get the point?

Sorry to restate what has been said many times before, but re the 'coming out of no-where'. As has been said from many sources Froome had, before and after Bizharia been producing numbers worthy of a GT winner. before Bizharia he had issues of overweightness, great difficulty riding in peloton without wasting energy and youth, after Bizharia he produced the same awesome numbers, and managed finally to show quality at Vuelta.

Secondly, though you are completely wrong on the first, if you were right, would it not be totally fair to say that whatever helped him come out of no-where is something that the other top riders were also using and thus, on the particular level playing field, he is highly highly talented as other riders are?

I thought only taxus kept on believing the badzilla crap after Sky contradicted themselves like 5 times, I am very very surprised that people are still trying to justify his explosion, even Sky stopped doing that in last couple years.

Indeed.

[quote="

How do you explain Contador's decline? He was only 30 when he returned from his ban?

He reached his pre-ban levels in '14, he was absolutely flying all year.
He was also looking good in '16 (not as good as '14 though) and I think he had a good chance of winning that TDF without crashes. (Though this is more debatable.)

 

[lenric]

Re: Re:

There is really nothing Froome could ever do to satisfy this guy that he's a talented rider. I mean he's won 4 Tours. Been runner up at Tours and Vueltas (even when fatigued). The only recent Tour he didn't win (2014) is because he crashed out, breaking his hand. He's beaten all comers repeatedly. He's won numerous GT mountain finishes, time trials and even downhill finishes. He's won Dauphines and Romandies, etc.
But in this guy's mind, he doesn't like Froome, therefore his outstanding "logic" concludes Froome is not a real talent.
It's irrelevant to him that Froome was heavier and had bilharzia prior to 2011. Real talents like Bennati, Bettini, Ballan, Pozzato, Devolder, Sami, etc. win Grand Tours even with bilharzia. They're that good.

Bettini's palmares > Froome's palmares and I think it is not close atm.

Maybe, but claiming that Sanchez is a pure talent whilst saying that Froome isn't isn't an opinion. It's just ludicrous bs.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

There is really nothing Froome could ever do to satisfy this guy that he's a talented rider. I mean he's won 4 Tours. Been runner up at Tours and Vueltas (even when fatigued). The only recent Tour he didn't win (2014) is because he crashed out, breaking his hand. He's beaten all comers repeatedly. He's won numerous GT mountain finishes, time trials and even downhill finishes. He's won Dauphines and Romandies, etc.
But in this guy's mind, he doesn't like Froome, therefore his outstanding "logic" concludes Froome is not a real talent.
It's irrelevant to him that Froome was heavier and had bilharzia prior to 2011. Real talents like Bennati, Bettini, Ballan, Pozzato, Devolder, Sami, etc. win Grand Tours even with bilharzia. They're that good.

Bettini's palmares > Froome's palmares and I think it is not close atm.

Maybe, but claiming that Sanchez is a pure talent whilst saying that Froome isn't isn't an opinion. It's just ludicrous bs.

I never said anything like the bolded.

 

[lenric]

Re: Re:

There is really nothing Froome could ever do to satisfy this guy that he's a talented rider. I mean he's won 4 Tours. Been runner up at Tours and Vueltas (even when fatigued). The only recent Tour he didn't win (2014) is because he crashed out, breaking his hand. He's beaten all comers repeatedly. He's won numerous GT mountain finishes, time trials and even downhill finishes. He's won Dauphines and Romandies, etc.
But in this guy's mind, he doesn't like Froome, therefore his outstanding "logic" concludes Froome is not a real talent.
It's irrelevant to him that Froome was heavier and had bilharzia prior to 2011. Real talents like Bennati, Bettini, Ballan, Pozzato, Devolder, Sami, etc. win Grand Tours even with bilharzia. They're that good.

Bettini's palmares > Froome's palmares and I think it is not close atm.

Maybe, but claiming that Sanchez is a pure talent whilst saying that Froome isn't isn't an opinion. It's just ludicrous bs.

I never said anything like the bolded.

I didn't say it was you the one who claimed it.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

There is really nothing Froome could ever do to satisfy this guy that he's a talented rider. I mean he's won 4 Tours. Been runner up at Tours and Vueltas (even when fatigued). The only recent Tour he didn't win (2014) is because he crashed out, breaking his hand. He's beaten all comers repeatedly. He's won numerous GT mountain finishes, time trials and even downhill finishes. He's won Dauphines and Romandies, etc.
But in this guy's mind, he doesn't like Froome, therefore his outstanding "logic" concludes Froome is not a real talent.
It's irrelevant to him that Froome was heavier and had bilharzia prior to 2011. Real talents like Bennati, Bettini, Ballan, Pozzato, Devolder, Sami, etc. win Grand Tours even with bilharzia. They're that good.

Bettini's palmares > Froome's palmares and I think it is not close atm.

Maybe, but claiming that Sanchez is a pure talent whilst saying that Froome isn't isn't an opinion. It's just ludicrous bs.

I never said anything like the bolded.

I didn't say it was you the one who claimed it.

Ah, sorry then. As for the Sanchez vs Froome about pure talent I think we will never know the answer.

 

[Merckx index]

Just hypothetical, of course, but suppose when the dust settles, it’s Contador 9/7/2 vs. Froome 5/4/4, GT wins on the road/GT official wins/TDF official wins. Anyone changing his/her mind? I think some who had Froome here before were assuming that he isn’t finished yet. What if he is?

 

[Amazinmets87]

The odds of Froome winning a single post-ban GT (much less 3) are obviously lower than Contador's due to age at time of infraction. I believe his best chance for at minimum a road GT win is the '18 Giro as it's unlikely his case will be resolved by then. Furthermore, age related decline will not be at as advanced a stage as potential post-ban attempts.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

There is really nothing Froome could ever do to satisfy this guy that he's a talented rider. I mean he's won 4 Tours. Been runner up at Tours and Vueltas (even when fatigued). The only recent Tour he didn't win (2014) is because he crashed out, breaking his hand. He's beaten all comers repeatedly. He's won numerous GT mountain finishes, time trials and even downhill finishes. He's won Dauphines and Romandies, etc.
But in this guy's mind, he doesn't like Froome, therefore his outstanding "logic" concludes Froome is not a real talent.
It's irrelevant to him that Froome was heavier and had bilharzia prior to 2011. Real talents like Bennati, Bettini, Ballan, Pozzato, Devolder, Sami, etc. win Grand Tours even with bilharzia. They're that good.

Oh dear.

Froome was due to sign with Lampre for a minimum wage contract at the end of the 2011 Vuelta. Please, apply some logic.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Just hypothetical, of course, but suppose when the dust settles, it’s Contador 9/7/2 vs. Froome 5/4/4, GT wins on the road/GT official wins/TDF official wins. Anyone changing his/her mind? I think some who had Froome here before were assuming that he isn’t finished yet. What if he is?

That's unofficial/official/official tour wins?

If Froome stays at 5/4/4 it's Contador by a landslide.

 

[Merckx index]

How's the comparison look now? The hypothetical 5 GTs on the road/4 official GTs/4 TDFs seems quite probable to me at this point. Even if Froome somehow avoids a ban, and keeps the Vuelta, I think there's a very good chance that could be his last GT win.

Veni, vidi, fugi.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

How's the comparison look now? The hypothetical 5 GTs on the road/4 official GTs/4 TDFs seems quite probable to me at this point. Even if Froome somehow avoids a ban, and keeps the Vuelta, I think there's a very good chance that could be his last GT win.

Veni, vidi, fugi.

Even disregarding the past, he is at the age now for GT riders when the slide usually starts. Some go a bit longer but not many. There is a reason not many GTs are won past the age of 34 or so. Good Classics riders tend to last another four years or more but that is a totally different type of racing and physical toll on the body.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

How's the comparison look now? The hypothetical 5 GTs on the road/4 official GTs/4 TDFs seems quite probable to me at this point. Even if Froome somehow avoids a ban, and keeps the Vuelta, I think there's a very good chance that could be his last GT win.

Veni, vidi, fugi.

Even disregarding the past, he is at the age now for GT riders when the slide usually starts. Some go a bit longer but not many. There is a reason not many GTs are won past the age of 34 or so. Good Classics riders tend to last another four years or more but that is a totally different type of racing and physical toll on the body.

Completely agree. Actually was trying to explain this not too long ago to someone (not on these boards). There is a reason why most GT GC rider retire by their mid 30's. Why classics riders can race a bit longer and obviously domestiques can race longer.

 

[Netserk]

Back to SeriousSam's question of placings vs. wins and Tour vs. Giro and Vuelta; I think a rough model of 1/position for placings and 1 Tour = 1.5 Giri = 2 Vueltas for comparing the different GTs is a good start, even if I personally think it's too generous of secondary positions (2nd in the Tour would equal 1st in the Vuelta).

Contador would score 6.5 Tours from his wins (all included) and ~1 for placings (all included) for a total of roughly 7.5 Tours.

Froome would score 4.5 Tours from his wins and ~1.4 for placings for a total of roughly 5.9 Tours.

Then you could add for stage wins, days in the leader's jersey, winning margin, consecutive performances etc.

Interestingly, Froome would just beat Contador if the latter's stripped results are discounted, as long as Froome's Vuelta still stands.

For comparison, Merckx would score 8.83 Tours from his wins and ~1.4 for placings for a total of roughly 10.2 Tours.