Contador vs. Froome

[Jspear]

Re:

Contador has shown wider variety of ways to win, has shown himself to be much more adaptable to different demands posed by different races and races situations. In short, he has shown to be less dependent on phyical superiority over his rivals in order to win a GT when compared to Froome. Winning all three GTs 3 times is in my eyes worth much more than winning one of them 4 times, even if that one is the Tour.

Contrary to Contador, Froome most likely isn't done with winning GTs yet, and thus can close the gap in the future. Also there's little doubt he has been physically the strongest and most complete GT rider during the last 5 years, but when comparing his entire career achievements with Contador's, Froome right now is still clearly behind.

For clarification, due to the clinic related baggage Froome and his team have, I don't see a point in scratching Tour '10 and Giro '11 from Contador's palmares when comparing it to Froome's.

Lol, good point!

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

The biggest problem though is that many of the Sky/Froome fans simply can't fathom why Contador has such a huge passionate following and Froome does not and likely still will not when his career ends.

What huge following?

For reference mr evergreen Valverde outstrips Contador in terms of popularity in Spain by a long way and he's only won one GT though Contador is respected.

I think sometimes people on here forget they post on a cycling forum and it's a very small/niche group of people. Ofc it's no surprise that people who enjoy and watch so much cycling to discuss it on a forum value other races in the year (Giro/Vuelta) extremely highly if not more than TDF under certain circumstances.

Yes I've noticed Valverde is much more liked in Spain and actually many Spaniards seem to dislike Alberto, however, it is obvious Alberto has a *much* larger fanbase worldwide. I don't know how the size of his fanbase compares to Froome's but I'm pretty certain Froome's is much less international. From my experience most of Froome's dedicated fans are British whereas Alberto's die-hard fans cannot be pinpointed to one location.

 

[Red Rick]

In terms of fanbases there's basically no way of comparing. A lot of media are gonna have some sort of recency bias.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Why is that? I have noticed a few Spaniards on this particular from aren't the biggest Alberto fans either..

 

[rick james]

when Froomes career is over with, just like Contador's racing career is over with just now then compare, doubt Bertie will ever win a race again


Feel free to bookmark that

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Why is that? I have noticed a few Spaniards on this particular from aren't the biggest Alberto fans either..

Combination of riding nats, representing Spain at WC/Olympics/ riding for spanish vs international teams, maybe the autonomous regions they're from, Vuelta starts.

Things like that?

 

[Supimilian]

If he had won the 2008 Tour, then he wouldn't have won the Giro and Vuelta. Then we'd have people saying he wasn't as great because he didn't win all the grand tours. Not racing the Tour in 2008 was a blessing in disguise. I'm not even as bummed about him missing the 2011 Tour. He gave us an amazing Giro that year. The 2014 Tour is the only one that makes me sad when I think about it.

You shouldn't be.
Contador had an extremely slim chance if any at beating Nibali at that form with that deficit. No one was dropping him that year. Look at Hautacam, look at the numbers.
Maybe Froome would have had an outside chance, but not Alberto being 2:30+ behind already.

 

[Red Rick]

Noone was dropping him, apart from Contador on a cat 3.

 

[Supimilian]

Re:

Noone was dropping him, apart from Contador on a cat 3.

3 seconds.
Might as well include stage 2 as well then.

 

[SeriousSam]

If we want to be principled about this we should construct a scoring system from the ground up and not immediately jump to complications (such as the value of diversity, the value of consecutive wins, the value of winning multiple GTs in a year, circumstances of the race, winning on the road, etc)

Let's start with a very simple exercise.

Let's take the UCI points system and look only at the value they assign to 2nd, 3rd etc relative to wininng, and the value they assign to the Giro and the Vuelta relative to the Tour, and reflect on whether we like that.

For the value relative to winning, they use the following scheme:

Now, to me this is completely at odds with what I'm reading from the community. Getting 2nd is worth 80% of winning? Two times getting 4th is better than winning the Tour? I'm much more inclined to value the second place relative to most people here and even I don't think that's even close to right for scoring GT palmares.

As for the the value of the Giro/Vuelta relative to the Tour, it's as high as 85%. This has the pleasing implication that winning the Giro is better than getting second at the Tour, but that's a function of the absurdly high value assigned to 2nd relative to 1st. I think 85% is too high. The Tour is more important than that.

At any rate, if we cannot agree on these two simple value judgements, Tour v Giro/Vuelta, 1st vs lesser finishing positions, there's really no need to even think about complications.

 

[Red Rick]

2nd in a Tour as 0.8 Tours?

I'd make it less than 0.5

 

[Supimilian]

When rating the all time greats a second should be at best 1/3 of a win imo

 

[Merckx index]

Only about GTs, going by OPs logic Vincenzo Nibali has 8319 points. How about that?

I get 8109 points, but your point is a good one. However, anyone who thinks Contador has a better GT record than Nibali—and I think most here do—has a problem reconciling this with the conclusion that Contador has accomplished more in GTs than Froome. Nibali’s high point total comes mostly from the Giro and Vuelta; only about 32% of his points come from Tour finishes. By not riding the Tour in several years, he was able to ride both the Giro and Vuelta, and pick up more points that way than he could have by winning the Tour only (2010 and 2013, when he won or podiumed in both the Giro and Vuelta; and in 2011, he podiumed in the Giro and finished top 10 in the Vuelta, giving him almost as many points as a Tour win).

Contador has done somewhat the same thing, with just 41% of his points coming from Tour finishes, vs. 65% for Froome. So the question becomes, which is more difficult, to win the Tour, or to podium in both the Giro and Vuelta in the same year? If a rider podiums in both of the latter, he will earn more points than winning the Tour, except if he finishes third in each, which is still better than second in the Tour.

This goes to what SeriousSam says about the relative evaluations of wins vs. other placings in a GT, as well as equivalent placings in different GTs.

 

[Netserk]

If one were to value placings, it'd be more reasonable to have it as a function of place^-1. Even that is probably too generous as no one would prefer 10 9th placings over one win.

edit: on the other hand, for those who really think that loses carry weight as a result, place^-2 is probably too harsh on the losers.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

Noone was dropping him, apart from Contador on a cat 3.

Please don't go back there, it' useless and it's over. Contador is a great champion, Froome will not surpass him even if he wins two TdFs in one year. He'll never win the Giro for various reasons and in my book a really great champion has to have all three GTs. This attempt to compare the two riders based on points is useless, as I said before Nibali has way more GT points than Froome but whether he has a better palmares until now comes down to subjective and personal preferences. Contador is still in a different league as a GT rider.

 

[perico]

Re: Re:

The biggest problem though is that many of the Sky/Froome fans simply can't fathom why Contador has such a huge passionate following and Froome does not and likely still will not when his career ends.

What huge following?

For reference mr evergreen Valverde outstrips Contador in terms of popularity in Spain by a long way and he's only won one GT though Contador is respected.

I think sometimes people on here forget they post on a cycling forum and it's a very small/niche group of people. Ofc it's no surprise that people who enjoy and watch so much cycling to discuss it on a forum value other races in the year (Giro/Vuelta) extremely highly if not more than TDF under certain circumstances.

I think maybe you could argue though that more of Contadors fans are die-hard and Froome maybe has more casual fans due to the nature of Froome targeting the TDF. Though many Froome fans are passionate and it would be unfair to say otherwise.

In terms of general following I just saw the Froomester overtook Contador on twitter. Not to mention you don't even have to be liked to create a legacy, check Armstrong, the evil villain role is actually quite a popular one.

Reference 1:

Even at 34, Contador is still king of the Spanish peloton. Though battered in this Tour, he still drives the narrative in the Spanish media. He’s the rider Spanish fans still love.

http://www.velonews.com/2017/07/tour-de-france/contador-landa-spains-past-future-link_443790/amp

 

[TommyGun]

Re: Re:

Why is that? I have noticed a few Spaniards on this particular from aren't the biggest Alberto fans either..

Combination of riding nats, representing Spain at WC/Olympics/ riding for spanish vs international teams, maybe the autonomous regions they're from, Vuelta starts.

Things like that?

Yeah, I know someone from Catalunya that dislikes Alberto just because he was born near Madrid

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Noone was dropping him, apart from Contador on a cat 3.

3 seconds.
.

In 100 meters.

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

Why is that? I have noticed a few Spaniards on this particular from aren't the biggest Alberto fans either..

Combination of riding nats, representing Spain at WC/Olympics/ riding for spanish vs international teams, maybe the autonomous regions they're from, Vuelta starts.

Things like that?

Yeah, I know someone from Catalunya that dislikes Alberto just because he was born near Madrid

Sounds a bit like the Man U syndrome in England

 

[Summoned]

Re: Re:

Noone was dropping him, apart from Contador on a cat 3.

3 seconds.
.

In 100 meters.

I think it would be more accurate to say it was 3 seconds in 1.8K, as I don't think taking 3 seconds in 100 meters would have been sustainable over a tremendous distance given the comparative shapes of Nibali and Contador in 2014.

But, say it was, and that would come to 30 seconds over 1K, and 5 minutes over 10K. If that is the form Contador had, then he had 5.9K to work with on La Planche des Belle Filles on Stage 10, which would have gotten him 3 minutes on Nibali at this rate. Does that seem reasonable as analysis of what Contador would have been able to do? Your call.

 

[del1962]

on the tour versus Vuelta / Giro

I think Froomes 2013 season wth the Tour plus 2 WT Races and 2 other stage races is better than Giro + Vuelta in same year, he also had 8 stage wins in the process and another WT Race GC podium

 

[deValtos]

Re: Re:

Reference 1:

Even at 34, Contador is still king of the Spanish peloton. Though battered in this Tour, he still drives the narrative in the Spanish media. He’s the rider Spanish fans still love.

http://www.velonews.com/2017/07/tour-de-france/contador-landa-spains-past-future-link_443790/amp

Just read https://as.com/ciclismo/ or http://www.esciclismo.com/actualidad.asp on a regular basis and you'll see what I mean. One vague quote from an english journo who doesn't speak spanish probably isn't a reference?

Of course Contador is well liked, but he ain't no Valverde.

Actually funnily enough I feel like Contador is to Valverde in spain to what Froome is to Wiggins in the UK. Though I have not been in spain in a long time so just my impression. If someone here is still living in spain then it would be interesting to know.

 

[Parker]

There's comparing them now, there's comparing them when they've both retired and there's comparing them many years in the future.

You can make a case for either right now, but I expect that the more time passes, the more opinion will tend towards Froome.

 

[arvc40]

Let's compare how Froome is riding at his age compared to how Contador was at the same age. Froome is far superior when it matters. Then we can compare them when retired. Face it Froome is going to keep winning over and over. Then it would be nice to compare them Physiologically and you already know who is coming out on top.

 

[lenric]

Re:

Let's compare how Froome is riding at his age compared to how Contador was at the same age. Froome is far superior when it matters. Then we can compare them when retired. Face it Froome is going to keep winning over and over. Then it would be nice to compare them Physiologically and you already know who is coming out on top.

Of course, we can also compare how Contador was riding until he was 28 with how Froome has ridden until the same age.