Contador vs. Froome

[Durden93]

It's Contador in my view, and there's not too much of a debate. 9GT wins vs 4. Won without a strong team, and when there was conflict in his team. Won all three GTs, not just one. I mean honestly:

Peak Froome (2011-Present): 4GTs, 10 GT stages

Peak Contador (2007-2011): 6 GTs, 7 GT stages

Those aren't really comparable given that Froome's peak is nearly twice as long. I've never seen Froome blow away his rivals when his DS was against him (Contador 09). I've never seen Froome battle his rival, mano e mano, for an HC climb, without support, and win (Contador Tormalet- I know he didn't win the stage but he didn't concede time, which was his objective).

 

[Valv.Piti]

Thats unfair. Twice as long? Even if you are generous and is including 2011 and 2012, where Froome wasn't allowed to win 2 GTs, thats still only 7 years compared to 5. So if you are excluding those years, which would be the right think to go about it, its 5 years against 5. In those 5 years, Froome managed 4 wins to Alberto's 3 wins, Froome hasn't been beaten in France where as Alberto as been beaten once (after the Giro, but still). You can put a = between 2008 and 2014 where Alberto wasn't allowed to race and Froome crashed out early in the race.

Then Alberto has 2 Giri and 1 Vuelta to Froome's second places in the Vuelta. So thats pretty even, small advantage Contador overall. So then when you include post ban Alberto you add 3 more, but no TdF where he has handedly been beaten by Froome. No contest.

Just going on the record, theres no doubt Alberto is greater, BUT its a big deal he hasn't managed to come anywhere close Froome in the Tour. Still, Alberto above Frooome for me.

EDIT: Another deal breaker is obviously if include the two GTs he officially hasn't won which I obviously did.

 

[Red Rick]

honestly i"d take the period between the first and last gt podium as the "peak" or at least as the period in which a rider was competitive for gts

gotta be said this affects contadors numbers more than froomes

i think he"s like nine out of twelve all of which victories

froome would have eight out of ten with four wins and the other results being a fourth and a DNF

 

[Ruby United]

Re:

Those aren't really comparable given that Froome's peak is nearly twice as long. I've never seen Froome blow away his rivals when his DS was against him (Contador 09). I've never seen Froome battle his rival, mano e mano, for an HC climb, without support, and win (Contador Tormalet- I know he didn't win the stage but he didn't concede time, which was his objective).

This whole paragraph consists of poor arguments and is largely incorrect.
I agree there are certainly arguments in favor of Contador being the better rider so far, but yours are not them.

 

[Arked]

Contador is better at the moment but I'm pretty sure it will change in the next 2-3 years as Froome will most likely add another Tour wins and probably Tour-Vuelta double to his palmares.

 

[dacooley]

Re:

It's Contador in my view, and there's not too much of a debate. 9GT wins vs 4. Won without a strong team, and when there was conflict in his team. Won all three GTs, not just one. I mean honestly:

Peak Froome (2011-Present): 4GTs, 10 GT stages

Peak Contador (2007-2011): 6 GTs, 7 GT stages

Those aren't really comparable given that Froome's peak is nearly twice as long. I've never seen Froome blow away his rivals when his DS was against him (Contador 09). I've never seen Froome battle his rival, mano e mano, for an HC climb, without support, and win (Contador Tormalet- I know he didn't win the stage but he didn't concede time, which was his objective).

you are making it sound like froome not having big conflicts within the team is his massive leak, he should intentionally create these problems at all hazards to overcome them and destroy the rivals with flying colors even more impressively. on top of that froome has plenty of solid perfomances even when sky train failed to show up itself the way it's got to be. from pena cabarga to pra-loup and lagos de cavadonga.

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

It's Contador in my view, and there's not too much of a debate. 9GT wins vs 4. Won without a strong team, and when there was conflict in his team. Won all three GTs, not just one. I mean honestly:

Peak Froome (2011-Present): 4GTs, 10 GT stages

Peak Contador (2007-2011): 6 GTs, 7 GT stages

Those aren't really comparable given that Froome's peak is nearly twice as long. I've never seen Froome blow away his rivals when his DS was against him (Contador 09). I've never seen Froome battle his rival, mano e mano, for an HC climb, without support, and win (Contador Tormalet- I know he didn't win the stage but he didn't concede time, which was his objective).

you are making it sound like froome not having big conflicts within the team is his massive leak, he should intentionally create these problems at all hazards to overcome them and destroy the rivals with flying colors even more impressively. on top of that froome has plenty of solid perfomances even when sky train failed to show up itself the way it's got to be. from pena cabarga to pra-loup and lagos de cavadonga.

Could not agree more.

In general the method of winning is only relevant in the eyes of romantic oriented fans and nothing to do with how good they really are. Their job is to win the race in any given way.

Still Berto though leading, 7 wins beats 4.

 

[Durden93]

Re: Re:

It's Contador in my view, and there's not too much of a debate. 9GT wins vs 4. Won without a strong team, and when there was conflict in his team. Won all three GTs, not just one. I mean honestly:

Peak Froome (2011-Present): 4GTs, 10 GT stages

Peak Contador (2007-2011): 6 GTs, 7 GT stages

Those aren't really comparable given that Froome's peak is nearly twice as long. I've never seen Froome blow away his rivals when his DS was against him (Contador 09). I've never seen Froome battle his rival, mano e mano, for an HC climb, without support, and win (Contador Tormalet- I know he didn't win the stage but he didn't concede time, which was his objective).

you are making it sound like froome not having big conflicts within the team is his massive leak, he should intentionally create these problems at all hazards to overcome them and destroy the rivals with flying colors even more impressively. on top of that froome has plenty of solid perfomances even when sky train failed to show up itself the way it's got to be. from pena cabarga to pra-loup and lagos de cavadonga.

No. What I am saying is that it's significantly easier to win a tour when you have a better team. What do you think you think would have happened if Rigo, or Martin had teammates to make the race hard on the Izoard? What about when Froome gained time on Quintana during the first week because Quintana's team let him down? There's no doubt in my mind that Froome's been the best GT rider since 2012, but he's only proven he can win with a strong team. Do you thnk it's a coincidence that when Froome's team is weaker in the Vuelta, he falters?

 

[deValtos]

Re: Re:

Do you thnk it's a coincidence that when Froome's team is weaker in the Vuelta, he falters?

Bro that might have more to do with the fact that riding back to back GT's with the aim of winning both is almost impossible and going to leave you pretty tired in the 2nd one as evidenced a million times by pro cyclists.

 

[Durden93]

Re: Re:

Do you thnk it's a coincidence that when Froome's team is weaker in the Vuelta, he falters?

Bro that might have more to do with the fact that riding back to back GT's with the aim of winning both is almost impossible and going to leave you pretty tired in the 2nd one as evidenced a million times by pro cyclists.

What about 2014. Both Froome and Contador were rested and Froomey got beaten. Or what about last year?

 

[deValtos]

Re: Re:

Do you thnk it's a coincidence that when Froome's team is weaker in the Vuelta, he falters?

Bro that might have more to do with the fact that riding back to back GT's with the aim of winning both is almost impossible and going to leave you pretty tired in the 2nd one as evidenced a million times by pro cyclists.

What about 2014. Both Froome and Contador were rested and Froomey got beaten. Or what about last year?

What about last year? Froome had just done the TDF and looked to be tired in the last week then still finished 2nd in the next GT 3 weeks later.

2014 I think there's a slight difference between returning from injury and "rested" Though I don't remember much about that vuelta I don't recall the teams being much of a talking point.

 

[Durden93]

Ignore the "last year" part of that

 

[Ruby United]

Durden93 - I think that most people on this forum agree with your point of view. However, your actual arguments in favour of that point of view are asinine and illogical.

 

[Katabatic]

Re: Re:

Do you thnk it's a coincidence that when Froome's team is weaker in the Vuelta, he falters?

Bro that might have more to do with the fact that riding back to back GT's with the aim of winning both is almost impossible and going to leave you pretty tired in the 2nd one as evidenced a million times by pro cyclists.

Who are the top tier GT riders who are targeting the Vuelta specifically?

It's the Vuelta. Almost every rider has tired legs.

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

Re: Re:

Do you thnk it's a coincidence that when Froome's team is weaker in the Vuelta, he falters?

Bro that might have more to do with the fact that riding back to back GT's with the aim of winning both is almost impossible and going to leave you pretty tired in the 2nd one as evidenced a million times by pro cyclists.

What about 2014. Both Froome and Contador were rested and Froomey got beaten. Or what about last year?

What about the fact that Froome only rides la Vuelta to maintain conditioning?

 

[Tonton]

I'm having a good time here.

First of all, it's like comparing Ali to Holmes. One is fading, one is in his prime. Holmes beats Ali doesn't mean a thing.

That was an example, Bertie is no Ali, is no Eddy.

Right now, Contador has the best record IMO.

But both need the one day race creds that makes the really greats. Bobet 3 TdF, RRWC, PR, RVV, MSR, GDL...better.

 

[Singer01]

But both need the one day race creds that makes the really greats. Bobet 3 TdF, RRWC, PR, RVV, MSR, GDL...better.

While i agree that their palmares don't match up to the historic greats in one day races, which top GC rider has since Hinault? Lemond didn't have great one day record (outside of WC), Indurain didn't, LA didn't. People are too specialised now, you can't be the best at everything like riders used to be.

At present i'd say to even discuss Froome having better record is ludicrous. That being said, if he wins Vuelta then TDF in 2018 i'd say he just shades it (assuming you think Contador has 7, not 9 Grand Tour victories. 5 TDF and 1 Veulta does not top 3,3,3 in my opinion).

 

[gregrowlerson]

But both need the one day race creds that makes the really greats. Bobet 3 TdF, RRWC, PR, RVV, MSR, GDL...better.

While i agree that their palmares don't match up to the historic greats in one day races, which top GC rider has since Hinault? Lemond didn't have great one day record (outside of WC), Indurain didn't, LA didn't. People are too specialised now, you can't be the best at everything like riders used to be.

At present i'd say to even discuss Froome having better record is ludicrous. That being said, if he wins Vuelta then TDF in 2018 i'd say he just shades it (assuming you think Contador has 7, not 9 Grand Tour victories. 5 TDF and 1 Veulta does not top 3,3,3 in my opinion).

I agree; 5 and 1 isn't quite as good as 3,3,3. However, people are almost completely ignoring Froome's GT podiums. This is almost as bad as only rating the Tour. A podium in a GT is a HUGE result. For the team, for the rider. Look at Landa just now, or Contador at last year's Vuelta; EVEN the 3rd place matters.

Given that Froome's non winning GT results far exceed Contador's, I'd say that Froome has the edge if he wins this Vuelta and the next Tour. Also given that he will have achieved a season double that is much better than Contador's '08 one.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Do you thnk it's a coincidence that when Froome's team is weaker in the Vuelta, he falters?

Bro that might have more to do with the fact that riding back to back GT's with the aim of winning both is almost impossible and going to leave you pretty tired in the 2nd one as evidenced a million times by pro cyclists.

What about 2014. Both Froome and Contador were rested and Froomey got beaten. Or what about last year?

Don't you know that was only because, according to the insiders knowledge of some CN posters, Froome's injuries from the Tour were much more severe than Contador's because there is no way he would've lost otherwise.

 

[lenric]

I'm having a good time here.

First of all, it's like comparing Ali to Holmes. One is fading, one is in his prime. Holmes beats Ali doesn't mean a thing.

That was an example, Bertie is no Ali, is no Eddy.

Right now, Contador has the best record IMO.

But both need the one day race creds that makes the really greats. Bobet 3 TdF, RRWC, PR, RVV, MSR, GDL...better.

None of the greats you mentioned would be greats if they were 30/40 years younger.
It's really not comparable. Different times, different stages, different rules, different nutrition, different science, different training, much more competition, everything's tuned to the milimeter. 30 years ago, everything was tuned to the meter.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

Do you thnk it's a coincidence that when Froome's team is weaker in the Vuelta, he falters?

Bro that might have more to do with the fact that riding back to back GT's with the aim of winning both is almost impossible and going to leave you pretty tired in the 2nd one as evidenced a million times by pro cyclists.

What about 2014. Both Froome and Contador were rested and Froomey got beaten. Or what about last year?

Don't you know that was only because, according to the insiders knowledge of some CN posters, Froome's injuries from the Tour were much more severe than Contador's because there is no way he would've lost otherwise.

I think 2014 Vuelta is a special case.
Froome may or may not have been more injured. Diferent riders' bodies respond to injuries in different ways. From the evidence we have its pretty clear that Froome responds to crashes very badly. His form dips and his recovery suffers much more than some other GT contendors.
Froome had a broken wrist after the Tour. Fact.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

Do you thnk it's a coincidence that when Froome's team is weaker in the Vuelta, he falters?

Bro that might have more to do with the fact that riding back to back GT's with the aim of winning both is almost impossible and going to leave you pretty tired in the 2nd one as evidenced a million times by pro cyclists.

Who are the top tier GT riders who are targeting the Vuelta specifically?

It's the Vuelta. Almost every rider has tired legs.

So in your opinion, Nibali, Domoulin will be as tired as the GC contendors who did the Tour.
:surprised:

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

It's Contador in my view, and there's not too much of a debate. 9GT wins vs 4. Won without a strong team, and when there was conflict in his team. Won all three GTs, not just one. I mean honestly:

Peak Froome (2011-Present): 4GTs, 10 GT stages

Peak Contador (2007-2011): 6 GTs, 7 GT stages

Those aren't really comparable given that Froome's peak is nearly twice as long. I've never seen Froome blow away his rivals when his DS was against him (Contador 09). I've never seen Froome battle his rival, mano e mano, for an HC climb, without support, and win (Contador Tormalet- I know he didn't win the stage but he didn't concede time, which was his objective).

you are making it sound like froome not having big conflicts within the team is his massive leak, he should intentionally create these problems at all hazards to overcome them and destroy the rivals with flying colors even more impressively. on top of that froome has plenty of solid perfomances even when sky train failed to show up itself the way it's got to be. from pena cabarga to pra-loup and lagos de cavadonga.

No. What I am saying is that it's significantly easier to win a tour when you have a better team. What do you think you think would have happened if Rigo, or Martin had teammates to make the race hard on the Izoard? What about when Froome gained time on Quintana during the first week because Quintana's team let him down? There's no doubt in my mind that Froome's been the best GT rider since 2012, but he's only proven he can win with a strong team. Do you thnk it's a coincidence that when Froome's team is weaker in the Vuelta, he falters?

let's be consistent: the 2007 tour was won with the assistance of by far the strongest team as well. when it comes to the 2009, yes the enviroment inside on the team was not healthy, but those were the guys who somehow helped him to make up a minute in team time trial. stating that AC won that Tour with a weakish team or without a team at all is ridiculous imo. yes, froome wins his tours due to the giant team effort, but teammates cannot complete the task instead of him, no one cant. dawg having the escort de luxe is not what he gets just adrift. He deserved to be served by top domestiques after having sacrificed two grand tour wins by reason of team hierarchy. Bertie's winning-gt streak was beginning way more smoothly at that point. as far as the vuelta 2016 is concerned, froome screwed up it fair and square. still, it was more a weak team, carelessness and inattentiveness rather than the lack of physical capacity to win the title.

Don't you know that was only because, according to the insiders knowledge of some CN posters, Froome's injuries from the Tour were much more severe than Contador's because there is no way he would've lost otherwise.

ufff, let's sometime take a look at the inverted agenda of Contador sweeping the floor with Froome and winning the Vuelta easily with one leg.

 

[Blanco]

But both need the one day race creds that makes the really greats. Bobet 3 TdF, RRWC, PR, RVV, MSR, GDL...better.

While i agree that their palmares don't match up to the historic greats in one day races, which top GC rider has since Hinault? Lemond didn't have great one day record (outside of WC), Indurain didn't, LA didn't. People are too specialised now, you can't be the best at everything like riders used to be.

At present i'd say to even discuss Froome having better record is ludicrous. That being said, if he wins Vuelta then TDF in 2018 i'd say he just shades it (assuming you think Contador has 7, not 9 Grand Tour victories. 5 TDF and 1 Veulta does not top 3,3,3 in my opinion).

Valverde? Nibali?

Lemond was excellent one day racer, he has podiums in 3 Monuments, Top 10's in all five, and you can't ignore biggest of the one-day races when we talk about one-day racing!!! Armstrong was very good too, even though he didn't rode classics in latter part of his career. Indurain, compared to Contador and Froome, was also good. He has 3 medals at the WC, San Sebastian win, and couple of Top 10 places, and all that in spite the fact that he didn't rode that races much frequently.

 

[Rollthedice]

But both need the one day race creds that makes the really greats. Bobet 3 TdF, RRWC, PR, RVV, MSR, GDL...better.

While i agree that their palmares don't match up to the historic greats in one day races, which top GC rider has since Hinault? Lemond didn't have great one day record (outside of WC), Indurain didn't, LA didn't. People are too specialised now, you can't be the best at everything like riders used to be.

At present i'd say to even discuss Froome having better record is ludicrous. That being said, if he wins Vuelta then TDF in 2018 i'd say he just shades it (assuming you think Contador has 7, not 9 Grand Tour victories. 5 TDF and 1 Veulta does not top 3,3,3 in my opinion).

Valverde? Nibali?

Lemond was excellent one day racer, he has podiums in 3 Monuments, Top 10's in all five, and you can't ignore biggest of the one-day races when we talk about one-day racing!!! Armstrong was very good too, even though he didn't rode classics in latter part of his career. Indurain, compared to Contador and Froome, was also good. He has 3 medals at the WC, San Sebastian win, and couple of Top 10 places, and all that in spite the fact that he didn't rode that races much frequently.

Nibali is the most complete GC rider still racing, apart from winning all three GTs he has podiums in three different monuments including one win plus a fourth place in Worlds RR and other one-day races wins and good placements. I'd say Valverde is the most complete classics rider with four monuments, numerous one-day races wins, an impossible number of podiums in Worlds RR, one GT and podiums in all three. Froome and Contador are specialized stage races/GT riders