Contador's "surprise" attack

[Anonymous]

AGREED. The thing is that if AC does not gain time on LA and LA grabs the Yellow, what are the team "tactics" then? My guess is defend LA's Yellow to the exclusion of anyone else. AC did what he had to do. LA would have done the same thing back in his heyday.

EXACTLY, only the move would have been lauded as brilliant and yellow tee shirt sales would have gone through the roof...

 

[autologous]

yup. He would have done the same thing in his heyday, and he would have done the same thing yesterday if he could have

he had nothing to lose - if he was caught he would have just said he was softening them up for his team mate alberto, if he stayed away he would have basked in the adulation. You would not have heard a word of whining about not sticking to plan. The lance of 99-05 would have laughed at such weak excuse-making.

There was no downside to his attacking, yet he couldn't do it.

 

[D-bagDetector]

AC is a douchebag, so is LA. If AC agreed to follow the team plan and then reneged, he is the bigger douchebag right now.

Alot of you senior members are bigger douchebags still!

May the stronger, more crafty man win on the champs.

 

[Irish2009]

AC is a Seat Leon with Nos(short fast bursts), Where LA is a big block Chevy(slow to get going but good top end) , anybody that writes either of these two at this point would be a fool. Evans is the only one of the GC contenders making it intresting at the moment, but I can't help thinking Sastre/Menchov and a few others are on the 3week plan

 

[FFWally]

LeMond/Hinault 85 part duex? Not even close...

This is only comparable in that both riders are on the same team. Way closer to Ullrich/Vino on T-Mobile.

Le Mond was young and American in a sport that had no respect for Americans at that point. He was on the biggest team in the world and had he stayed at Elf with his other rival, Fignon, he would have beaten Hinault.

LeMond was an tiny island in a great sea of French, Italian, Belgian and Spanish riders in those days. He had very little help in 85, it was a totally different time and sport.

To say he had no backbone is doing a disservice to his position.

This is two grand tour winners. One who has never dominated a tour, but still managed to win 3. The other who truly ruled the peleton in his prime.

If Contador had won with panache as Armstrong, Hinault, Merckx had, then we are not even discussing who is the team leader.

Levi is a much better rider week three than Alberto. To think htat he will be that much better this year week three is a pipe dream.

Alberto has to put a stamp of domination on this race at some point or another Astana rider wins it.

 

[Irish2009]

LeMond/Hinault 85 part duex? Not even close...


Le Mond was young and American in a sport that had no respect for Americans at that point. He was on the biggest team in the world and had he stayed at Elf with his other rival, Fignon, he would have beaten Hinault.

LeMond was an tiny island in a great sea of French, Italian, Belgian and Spanish riders in those days. He had very little help in 85, it was a totally different time and sport.

To say he had no backbone is doing a disservice to his position.

Lemond had great respect in the peloton at the time. He had been junior and senior world champ and had spent most of his senior racing career in France.

Lemond was no more an "island" than Roche,Kelly,Miller,Yates,Anderson, Jones or any other none mainland Europe rider. He did have support, if he had listened to Roche and not his DS he would have won the tour that year, but his ultimatly misguided loyalty to Hinault cost him that tour.

Lemond and Fignon are two of my favourite alltime riders. I've rode with Fignon but never had the pleasure of riding with Lemond. He is a true Hero of our sport and yes he has more balls than most of us.

 

[VeloFidelis]

yup. He would have done the same thing in his heyday, and he would have done the same thing yesterday if he could have

he had nothing to lose - if he was caught he would have just said he was softening them up for his team mate alberto, if he stayed away he would have basked in the adulation. You would not have heard a word of whining about not sticking to plan. The lance of 99-05 would have laughed at such weak excuse-making.

There was no downside to his attacking, yet he couldn't do it.

No downside?... It was well known to the chasing group that a French team would take the Jersey. The benefit of having a French team, AG2R defending their leader position until probably Stage 13 is invaluable to Astana, and all the GC contenders. If Contador had taken Yellow in Arcalis he would have put needless pressure on Astana to defend their position for no credible reason.

He will either take it rightfully in the Alps, or in the TT in Annecy. To make his team work hard for no reason before that is a rookie move that could possibly have had a negative affect on what is most likely the eventual outcome. He should be happy that a headwind saved him from making a huge tactical blunder.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Then WTF was VH Pena doing, wearing it after the 2004 TTT?
The longer the better, back in the good 'ol days.

 

[mr. tibbs]

No downside?... It was well known to the chasing group that a French team would take the Jersey. The benefit of having a French team, AG2R defending their leader position until probably Stage 13 is invaluable to Astana, and all the GC contenders. If Contador had taken Yellow in Arcalis he would have put needless pressure on Astana to defend their position for no credible reason.

He will either take it rightfully in the Alps, or in the TT in Annecy. To make his team work hard for no reason before that is a rookie move that could possibly have had a negative affect on what is most likely the eventual outcome. He should be happy that a headwind saved him from making a huge tactical blunder.

And what if they would have gotten yellow after the TTT? I guess then it would have been tactically sound b/c it would be on Armstrong's shoulders and he'd be unquestioned captain of Astana, right?

 

[Futuroscope]

LeMond/Hinault 85 part duex? Not even close...

This is only comparable in that both riders are on the same team. Way closer to Ullrich/Vino on T-Mobile.

Le Mond was young and American in a sport that had no respect for Americans at that point. He was on the biggest team in the world and had he stayed at Elf with his other rival, Fignon, he would have beaten Hinault.

LeMond was an tiny island in a great sea of French, Italian, Belgian and Spanish riders in those days. He had very little help in 85, it was a totally different time and sport.

To say he had no backbone is doing a disservice to his position.

This is two grand tour winners. One who has never dominated a tour, but still managed to win 3. The other who truly ruled the peleton in his prime.

If Contador had won with panache as Armstrong, Hinault, Merckx had, then we are not even discussing who is the team leader.

Levi is a much better rider week three than Alberto. To think htat he will be that much better this year week three is a pipe dream.

Alberto has to put a stamp of domination on this race at some point or another Astana rider wins it.

how many grand tours has levi won?

 

[Anonymous]

Levi said this morning that they were riding to get Lance the jersey and that Contador screwed that up. All this talk of someone else getting the jersey is belied by his statement.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Then WTF was VH Pena doing, wearing it after the 2004 TTT?
The longer the better, back in the good 'ol days.

Not sure about the Pena reference, but in 04 Postal handed the Jersey to Thomas Voeckler for stages 6 through 14, and besides it making Voeckler a French national hero, it took all the pressure off of Postal. They could not have scripted a better scenario for the middle stages of the 04 Tour. The possibility of that repeating itself was very evident to Bruyneel and the rest of the Astana boys in the chase. Evidently Alberto did not get the memo.

 

[VeloFidelis]

And what if they would have gotten yellow after the TTT? I guess then it would have been tactically sound b/c it would be on Armstrong's shoulders and he'd be unquestioned captain of Astana, right?

Sound strategy would be to give it up so as not to defend until they needed to. They have done it before.

 

[Anonymous]

Not sure about the Pena reference, but in 04 Postal handed the Jersey to Thomas Voeckler for stages 6 through 14, and besides it making Voeckler a French national hero, it took all the pressure off of Postal. They could not have scripted a better scenario for the middle stages of the 04 Tour. The possibility of that repeating itself was very evident to Bruyneel and the rest of the Astana boys in the chase. Evidently Alberto did not get the memo.

Why were they riding at the front today? I mean, they don't have the jersey. Sprint stages will still involve some tempo riding and then Columbia and Cervelo will take over for the catch. They gave a weak team the yellow, and that really benefits them little where it counts.

LL said they wanted Lance in yellow yesterday when interviewed this morning, which calls into question all of the bullshit said otherwise. They wanted it after the TTT, just look at Ben Stiller's reaction when giving Spartacus the yellow.

Contador was smart to go back in front of Mr Armstrong.

 

[Chomsky]

What neither the haters or the lovers fail to realize or admit is that both Contador and LA can be bad guys. The haters refuse to believe Contador's attack was wrong even though it was also directed at Levi and Kloeden because of their hatred of LA. The Lovers refuse to admit any fault of LA.

Contador's attack was similar to attacking when your rival has an accident or mechanical. Levi, LA and Kloeden were all defenseless and could not fight back. AC knew that LA, Levi and Kloeden were not allowed to respond to his attack and he still did it. Taking advantage of defenseless rivals is not how one wins a bike race. There is no excuse for that. AC has no other rivals outside Astana riders that he has to attack against. At this point he only needs to defend against distant rivals. Attacking distant rivals in this tour serves no purpose. The only reason he attacked was to put time on LA, Kloeden and Levi knowing they had their hands tied behind their backs and could not fight attack back. To make it even worse he did this against team orders.

No matter whether you think Love LA or hate him its almost impossible to defend AC's actions. AC tried to defend his actions and say he was worried about attacks. Pretty weak. LA, Kloeden and Levi covered all attacks for him as well as pulled AC up the hill. Nice payback. AC was only worried about his position in the standings compared to Levi, LA and Kloeden. But because AC's attack was underhanded and bush league does not suddenly make LA a saint or a good guy. The problem here is the haters hate LA so much that every thing that happens has to become a referendum on LA and the Lover's will do the opposite. One does not have to love LA to realize what Contador did was very wrong.

But will it really matter. Very likely not. I don't think anyone thinks LA has a much of any chance of winning with or without an extra 21 seconds. This incident really said nothing about whether LA is a good guy or bad guy but it certainly sheds some light on the character or lack of character of AC.

 

[180mmCrank]

Oh my gosh...

Contador is a cycling genius. He is fighting for his place with his talent...he can't win the war of words and I think he is rightfully nervous about trusting his team mates.

This is just my opinion. And I have to declare I was shouting at the TV when he attacked. Does that make me a lover or a hater?

For the record: I think Contador will win fairly easily in the end but there will be more drama to come. I hope this doesn't get turned into some story of betrayal in the World media when Lance doesn't win.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Why were they riding at the front today? I mean, they don't have the jersey. Sprint stages will still involve some tempo riding and then Columbia and Cervelo will take over for the catch. They gave a weak team the yellow, and that really benefits them little where it counts.

LL said they wanted Lance in yellow yesterday when interviewed this morning, which calls into question all of the bullshit said otherwise. They wanted it after the TTT, just look at Ben Stiller's reaction when giving Spartacus the yellow.

Contador was smart to go back in front of Mr Armstrong.

I agree Contador was smart to assert himself and take back time on Armstrong, but we both know that he was after more... or his timing is impeccable. He is far better off with a French team with no possible GC hopes defending for a week. He was lucky to be a few seconds shy.

Today their was still the possibility of a GC threat so they did a show of force. After the Pyrenees it will be sprints and stage hunters taking flyers until Colmar. Astana will ride tempo for a week, and that is more valuable than having the Jersey right now.

 

[mr. tibbs]

What neither the haters or the lovers fail to realize or admit is that both Contador and LA can be bad guys. The haters refuse to believe Contador's attack was wrong even though it was also directed at Levi and Kloeden because of their hatred of LA. The Lovers refuse to admit any fault of LA.

Kloden and Leipheimer are domestiques (so is Armstrong, really), so how could their captain attacking hurt them? Contador went when he saw he could put time into his rivals, which is good for Astana as a whole. The entire team should have been dedicated to him from that first stage when he established himself as the strongest, so they should all be celebrating right now, not upset b/c he gained time.

But I think you're right about Leipheimer and Armstrong maybe feeling some resentment. I don't even know why Leipheimer still rides for Astana--he's strong enough that he should have his own GT ship to sail. Ditto with Armstrong, who I think only chose Astana b/c he knew they would give him a HUGE boost in the TTT and maybe the yellow jersey/team leadership before Contador could outshine him in the climbs.

But at Astana they are supporting characters. They should accept this and do their jobs (like Kloden did on Friday). But, since they aren't, Contador has to wrestle them into submission. Hence Friday's finish.

 

[mr. tibbs]

I agree Contador was smart to assert himself and take back time on Armstrong, but we both know that he was after more... or his timing is impeccable. He is far better off with a French team with no possible GC hopes defending for a week. He was lucky to be a few seconds shy.
Today their was still the possibility of a GC threat so they did a show of force. After the Pyrenees it will be sprints and stage hunters taking flyers until Colmar. Astana will ride tempo for a week, and that is more valuable than having the Jersey right now.

As has been demonstrated several times on this forum, Armstrong's intention was to get yellow on Friday, too. Please stop erecting this straw man.

 

[elapid]

What neither the haters or the lovers fail to realize or admit is that both Contador and LA can be bad guys. The haters refuse to believe Contador's attack was wrong even though it was also directed at Levi and Kloeden because of their hatred of LA. The Lovers refuse to admit any fault of LA.

There are some outright lovers and haters on this forum, but most seem to weigh their arguments rather than be blinded by their love or hate.

LA, Kloeden and Levi covered all attacks for him as well as pulled AC up the hill. Nice payback.

Kloden and Levi are there as super-domestiques. It is their job to pull Lance and Contador up the hill, protect him, and cover counterattacks. He paid them back very nicely by making time on his rivals. There is still two weeks to go, so no matter how unlikely I wouldn't by counting out the likes of Schleck, Sastre and Evans yet. And yes, Lance is a rival, probably the biggest rival. Lance played a good super-domestique role as well once Contador made his break. At the start of the TdF, Bruyneel and Armstrong basically said may the strongest man win. Contador was showing his strength and Lance did the right thing in covering potential counterattacks.

Taking advantage of defenseless rivals is not how one wins a bike race. There is no excuse for that.

To make it even worse he did this against team orders.

One does not have to love LA to realize what Contador did was very wrong.

This incident really said nothing about whether LA is a good guy or bad guy but it certainly sheds some light on the character or lack of character of AC.

Totally disagree. From Bruyneel's quotes before the stage and afterwards, there is no evidence that Contador was acting against team orders:
1. "The stage decided who was the strongest. This morning, we didn't give any specific instructions. I just told them [Contador and Armstrong] to talk to each other, and do what they have to do. Alberto was strong; he is a great climber and there are three summit finishes at this Tour. So this was one of his possibilities today."
2. “We didn’t have a specific plan to attack, our plan was to maintain our collective strength first and wait for attacks from the others. Alberto counter-attacked after an attack, our plan had been for the riders to communicate and respond. I had no race radio at that time or TV, so it was something they decided themselves."

The only evidence that Contador went against team orders is what Lance said after the stage, which directly contradicts Bruyneel's statements from yesterday. It seems Lance is the odd one out when all the quotes are considered together.

So, based on Bruyneel's quotes, there were no team orders and Contador did what a team leader should do - increase time in order to win the overall. He was not wrong, he did not attack defenseless riders, and he showed his fighting character.

I'm still waiting for an answer as to why Contador should roll over and give this title to Lance without a fight - anyone?

 

[frizzlefry]

What neither the haters or the lovers fail to realize or admit is that both Contador and LA can be bad guys. The haters refuse to believe Contador's attack was wrong even though it was also directed at Levi and Kloeden because of their hatred of LA. The Lovers refuse to admit any fault of LA..

Just wait unitl AC attacks again and LA goes with him. I can hear he crying now. Going to sound like a daycare around here.

 

[Irish2009]

Funny but do people forget that if it wasn't for the TTT Nocentini would still be in yellow by nearly 2mins from Martin? Astana should be trying to distance him and Contador attacking did just that.

 

[Futuroscope]

What neither the haters or the lovers fail to realize or admit is that both Contador and LA can be bad guys. The haters refuse to believe Contador's attack was wrong even though it was also directed at Levi and Kloeden because of their hatred of LA. The Lovers refuse to admit any fault of LA.

Contador's attack was similar to attacking when your rival has an accident or mechanical. Levi, LA and Kloeden were all defenseless and could not fight back. AC knew that LA, Levi and Kloeden were not allowed to respond to his attack and he still did it. Taking advantage of defenseless rivals is not how one wins a bike race. There is no excuse for that. AC has no other rivals outside Astana riders that he has to attack against. At this point he only needs to defend against distant rivals. Attacking distant rivals in this tour serves no purpose. The only reason he attacked was to put time on LA, Kloeden and Levi knowing they had their hands tied behind their backs and could not fight attack back. To make it even worse he did this against team orders.

No matter whether you think Love LA or hate him its almost impossible to defend AC's actions. AC tried to defend his actions and say he was worried about attacks. Pretty weak. LA, Kloeden and Levi covered all attacks for him as well as pulled AC up the hill. Nice payback. AC was only worried about his position in the standings compared to Levi, LA and Kloeden. But because AC's attack was underhanded and bush league does not suddenly make LA a saint or a good guy. The problem here is the haters hate LA so much that every thing that happens has to become a referendum on LA and the Lover's will do the opposite. One does not have to love LA to realize what Contador did was very wrong.

But will it really matter. Very likely not. I don't think anyone thinks LA has a much of any chance of winning with or without an extra 21 seconds. This incident really said nothing about whether LA is a good guy or bad guy but it certainly sheds some light on the character or lack of character of AC.

i dont agree with you at all. dont you see that not capitalizing on your opportunities could hurt the team in the end?
you cant have 4 winners of the tour de france. and there would be no problem if JB would have done his job from the start: and named the strongest rider as the only captain.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree Contador was smart to assert himself and take back time on Armstrong, but we both know that he was after more... or his timing is impeccable. He is far better off with a French team with no possible GC hopes defending for a week. He was lucky to be a few seconds shy.

Today their was still the possibility of a GC threat so they did a show of force. After the Pyrenees it will be sprints and stage hunters taking flyers until Colmar. Astana will ride tempo for a week, and that is more valuable than having the Jersey right now.

I agree that he is better off with someone else having the jersey because he would not be supported by Lance and anyone else loyal to him up to and including Bruyneel. However, it is also clear that if LL is telling the truth (and why wouldn't he?), then they wanted Lance in the jersey. I believe there are two reasons for that:

1. Lance must use tactics like holding the yellow and demanding traditional tactics in that case to beat a stronger rider like Contador.

2. (this one is as important, if not more important to everyone but Armstrong) The marketing dollars are huge for something like that. It will be plastered everywhere and anyone associated with Lance will have a payday like they have not seen in quite some time up to and including the LAF (which, though poorly run, also does do good regardless).

Contador is pissing a lot of people off, and many of them because of financial reasons.

 

[180mmCrank]

Lance back in Yellow is a great end to the movie!

Alberto hasn't read the script and frankly would never play his part very well even if he had. I say more power to the guy don't get pushed around. I am sending all my love to Alberto ... metaphorically speaking