Contador's "surprise" attack

[Futuroscope]

Kloden and Leipheimer are domestiques (so is Armstrong, really), so how could their captain attacking hurt them? Contador went when he saw he could put time into his rivals, which is good for Astana as a whole. The entire team should have been dedicated to him from that first stage when he established himself as the strongest, so they should all be celebrating right now, not upset b/c he gained time.

But I think you're right about Leipheimer and Armstrong maybe feeling some resentment. I don't even know why Leipheimer still rides for Astana--he's strong enough that he should have his own GT ship to sail. Ditto with Armstrong, who I think only chose Astana b/c he knew they would give him a HUGE boost in the TTT and maybe the yellow jersey/team leadership before Contador could outshine him in the climbs.

But at Astana they are supporting characters. They should accept this and do their jobs (like Kloden did on Friday). But, since they aren't, Contador has to wrestle them into submission. Hence Friday's finish.

yup LL, LA and contador shouldnt be in the same team.

 

[Futuroscope]

There are some outright lovers and haters on this forum, but most seem to weigh their arguments rather than be blinded by their love or hate.


Kloden and Levi are there as super-domestiques. It is their job to pull Lance and Contador up the hill, protect him, and cover counterattacks. He paid them back very nicely by making time on his rivals. There is still two weeks to go, so no matter how unlikely I wouldn't by counting out the likes of Schleck, Sastre and Evans yet. And yes, Lance is a rival, probably the biggest rival. Lance played a good super-domestique role as well once Contador made his break. At the start of the TdF, Bruyneel and Armstrong basically said may the strongest man win. Contador was showing his strength and Lance did the right thing in covering potential counterattacks.



Totally disagree. From Bruyneel's quotes before the stage and afterwards, there is no evidence that Contador was acting against team orders:
1. "The stage decided who was the strongest. This morning, we didn't give any specific instructions. I just told them [Contador and Armstrong] to talk to each other, and do what they have to do. Alberto was strong; he is a great climber and there are three summit finishes at this Tour. So this was one of his possibilities today."
2. “We didn’t have a specific plan to attack, our plan was to maintain our collective strength first and wait for attacks from the others. Alberto counter-attacked after an attack, our plan had been for the riders to communicate and respond. I had no race radio at that time or TV, so it was something they decided themselves."

The only evidence that Contador went against team orders is what Lance said after the stage, which directly contradicts Bruyneel's statements from yesterday. It seems Lance is the odd one out when all the quotes are considered together.

So, based on Bruyneel's quotes, there were no team orders and Contador did what a team leader should do - increase time in order to win the overall. He was not wrong, he did not attack defenseless riders, and he showed his fighting character.

I'm still waiting for an answer as to why Contador should roll over and give this title to Lance without a fight - anyone?

good stuff.

 

[frizzlefry]

Didnt LL have his own ship to sail when he was with Gerolsteiner?

 

[VeloFidelis]

Kloden and Leipheimer are domestiques (so is Armstrong, really), so how could their captain attacking hurt them? Contador went when he saw he could put time into his rivals, which is good for Astana as a whole. The entire team should have been dedicated to him from that first stage when he established himself as the strongest, so they should all be celebrating right now, not upset b/c he gained time.

But I think you're right about Leipheimer and Armstrong maybe feeling some resentment. I don't even know why Leipheimer still rides for Astana--he's strong enough that he should have his own GT ship to sail. Ditto with Armstrong, who I think only chose Astana b/c he knew they would give him a HUGE boost in the TTT and maybe the yellow jersey/team leadership before Contador could outshine him in the climbs.

But at Astana they are supporting characters. They should accept this and do their jobs (like Kloden did on Friday). But, since they aren't, Contador has to wrestle them into submission. Hence Friday's finish.

What are they not doing that they should be doing for Contador right now? I see Lance Kloden and Levi at the front more than Alberto. He is getting great protection from three form TDF podium finishers. The problem is?... what?!!

Contador attacking and taking Yellow would put the team in the hurt locker for a week or more when they don't have to be. Winning the Tour is not about the energy you expend, it's about the energy you save. Those other three podium finishers know that.

Who of his GC rivals is going to take time on Contador in the TT? That is where he will lock down his lead. That is where both Armstrong and Indurain did the most damage for a cumulative 12 years. It ain't rocket science.

These guys all ride for Astana for one very obvious reason right now. It is arguably the strongest team in cycling. I hate the Lakers, but I would play for them in a heartbeat if I was good enough.

These guys are professionals and they are going to do what is best for the team. That is what they did when Alberto jumped away. He is lucky to have these guys to school him. With his talent he can probably win five or more Tours. But being the strongest is not enough, because he could easily lose it by being foolish. Whether these guys like each other or not, they will behave responsibly and professionally and no amount of whipped up media hype and bullsh!t will change that.

I would stop buying into all the TV politics and controversy. The media has a job to do and it has little to do with the racing, and everything to do with the hype and hyperbole.

 

[Futuroscope]

What are they not doing that they should be doing for Contador right now? I see Lance Kloden and Levi at the front more than Alberto. He is getting great protection from three form TDF podium finishers. The problem is?... what?!!

Contador attacking and taking Yellow would put the team in the hurt locker for a week or more when they don't have to be. Winning the Tour is not about the energy you expend, it's about the energy you save. Those other three podium finishers know that.

Who of his GC rivals is going to take time on Contador in the TT? That is where he will lock down his lead. That is where both Armstrong and Indurain did the most damage for a cumulative 12 years. It ain't rocket science.

These guys all ride for Astana for one very obvious reason right now. It is arguably the strongest team in cycling. I hate the Lakers, but I would play for them in a heartbeat if I was good enough.

These guys are professionals and they are going to do what is best for the team. That is what they did when Alberto jumped away. He is lucky to have these guys to school him. With his talent he can probably win five or more Tours. But being the strongest is not enough, because he could easily lose it by being foolish. Whether these guys like each other or not, they will behave responsibly and professionally and no amount of whipped up media hype and bullsh!t will change that.

I would stop buying into all the TV politics and controversy. The media has a job to do and it has little to do with the racing, and everything to do with the hype and hyperbole.

if that would have happened, who says they have to defend the jersey?

 

[VeloFidelis]

As has been demonstrated several times on this forum, Armstrong's intention was to get yellow on Friday, too. Please stop erecting this straw man.

Uncross your eyes and spare me all the judgmental Lance Love / Lance Hate bul****. Or better yet read the whole post next time.

You ride a TTT is one agenda, "GO"!!! If they had taken the Yellow, they would have let it go. That is smart! They are a smart team, with a smart DS, and they have done it before.

 

[mr. tibbs]

What are they not doing that they should be doing for Contador right now? I see Lance Kloden and Levi at the front more than Alberto. He is getting great protection from three form TDF podium finishers. The problem is?... what?!!

Contador attacking and taking Yellow would put the team in the hurt locker for a week or more when they don't have to be. Winning the Tour is not about the energy you expend, it's about the energy you save. Those other three podium finishers know that.
[...]

I was responding to a post by Chomsky who was suggesting that Contador's attack hurt Leipheimer and Kloden, not saying they weren't helping him enough, just pointing out that they actually benefit from their strongest rider (Dare I say captain?) gaining time. They have both pulled, and will more, in the Alps.

And again, Armstrong was going to put the team in the hurt locker for a week, too, so please stop with the "no tactical accumen" argument.

Unfortunately, the real target of Contador's attack was, probably, Armstrong. But Contador is the strongest rider and is only trying to win the race. Armstrong is an usurper who came to the Spaniard's team and started talking about how the race will decide who is captain. Contador is just making sure that the race decides that HE is captain (just like Armstrong was in stage 3). You can't fault him for that.

(And I say all this as a Kloden fan, just for the record. If I could pick an Astana to win, it would be him. I just think Contador is the strongest one of the five [including Zubeldia].)

 

[elapid]

Uncross your eyes and spare me all the judgmental Lance Love / Lance Hate bul****. Or better yet read the whole post next time.

You ride a TTT is one agenda, "GO"!!! If they had taken the Yellow, they would have let it go. That is smart! They are a smart team, with a smart DS, and they have done it before.

As Futuroscope asked, what would have stopped Astana from letting the yellow jersey go if Contador had won on stage 7? Nothing. Contador did nothing to jeopardize the team with his attack: he didn't win the yellow jersey so the first argument is mute, and even if he (or Armstrong) did when the yellow jersey then there would be no problem in giving the jersey up until the Alps.

 

[VeloFidelis]

if that would have happened, who says they have to defend the jersey?

You are correct. But what kind of post would you be typing right now if they had? Most people here, and certainly the Press would go sideways with objections of conspiracy and betrayal if they had given it up. Where as if Lance had taken it in the TTT and let it go, we would all be getting a lesson in strategy that would be considered wise.

But you are correct, if Contador had been seconds faster that might have been a necessary consideration for Astana. How do YOU think it would have been received?

 

[mr. tibbs]

Uncross your eyes and spare me all the judgmental Lance Love / Lance Hate bul****. Or better yet read the whole post next time.

You ride a TTT is one agenda, "GO"!!! If they had taken the Yellow, they would have let it go. That is smart! They are a smart team, with a smart DS, and they have done it before.

The TTT was an earlier stage, I'm saying that Armstrong was trying to get the yellow jersey on Firday, in Andorra, the same stage where Contador attacked.

Also, if you don't mind my asking, is the ink in your avatar your own? And what is it of, cuz I think I've seen something like that before...

 

[nicholaaaas]

if this were the old days the team manager wouldn't be telling the guys were exactly to attack. ALberto felt it was a good spot to attack and went. the effortless way he rode away looked like Marco Pantani in his prime. Let's be honest... there is no way Lance could go with him... so he sat back and "played" the team role so he could cry after the race. And of course Johan and him are so far up each other asses Johan gonna since with Lance. I hope Alberto ditches Astana after the way they are treating him like a rookie.

 

[Anonymous]

Didnt LL have his own ship to sail when he was with Gerolsteiner?

Yea, the SS Wannabe

 

[VeloFidelis]

As Futuroscope asked, what would have stopped Astana from letting the yellow jersey go if Contador had won on stage 7? Nothing. Contador did nothing to jeopardize the team with his attack: he didn't win the yellow jersey so the first argument is mute, and even if he (or Armstrong) did when the yellow jersey then there would be no problem in giving the jersey up until the Alps.

I agree with you that he did not harm the team with his attack, but he could have. I think he is lucky he fell seconds short. There is luckily no political problem for Astana with giving up the jersey. I also like that he took time back on Lance, and do not consider it betrayal of any kind.

But you don't usually get to choose who you give the Jersey up to. And knowing the a French team, who would turn themselves inside out for as long as they could to defend it, while the French press and French fans go crazy about it, would certainly be my preference. So why make a move to screw that up?

 

[Anonymous]

if this were the old days the team manager wouldn't be telling the guys were exactly to attack. ALberto felt it was a good spot to attack and went. the effortless way he rode away looked like Marco Pantani in his prime. Let's be honest... there is no way Lance could go with him... so he sat back and "played" the team role so he could cry after the race. And of course Johan and him are so far up each other asses Johan gonna since with Lance. I hope Alberto ditches Astana after the way they are treating him like a rookie.

That to me is another point of soreness because instead of treating him in a respectful manner, ie. if you have something to say about tactics or riding style, say it to him in a team meeting and don't twitter your little jealous fingers off telling the world what you think of YOUR TEAMMATE. He has not been treated as part of that team since Mr Armstrong decided to save cancer. He has won 3 GT's. I would suggest that is quite an accomplishment and worthy of respect. Mr Armstrong doesn't appear to respect any other TdF winner besides himself even if he did apologize at a late hour.

 

[Futuroscope]

You are correct. But what kind of post would you be typing right now if they had? Most people here, and certainly the Press would go sideways with objections of conspiracy and betrayal if they had given it up. Where as if Lance had taken it in the TTT and let it go, we would all be getting a lesson in strategy that would be considered wise.

But you are correct, if Contador had been seconds faster that might have been a necessary consideration for Astana. How do YOU think it would have been received?

it has been done before and i dont think it would have been such a big deal.

edit: specially if some french guy got the yellow jersey (via a breakaway)

 

[elapid]

I agree with you that he did not harm the team with his attack, but he could have. I think he is lucky he fell seconds short. There is luckily no political problem for Astana with giving up the jersey. I also like that he took time back on Lance, and do not consider it betrayal of any kind.

But you don't usually get to choose who you give the Jersey up to. And knowing the a French team, who would turn themselves inside out for as long as they could to defend it, while the French press and French fans go crazy about it, would certainly be my preference. So why make a move to screw that up?

I know what you are saying and can see your point. However, the choice between making time on you rivals and handing the yellow jersey to a French team may have been an easier choice on the road when you've been heavily criticized by the media for being the rider that missed the echolon on stage 3 and lost time to your team rival. Just a thought.

 

[Futuroscope]

if this were the old days the team manager wouldn't be telling the guys were exactly to attack. ALberto felt it was a good spot to attack and went. the effortless way he rode away looked like Marco Pantani in his prime. Let's be honest... there is no way Lance could go with him... so he sat back and "played" the team role so he could cry after the race. And of course Johan and him are so far up each other asses Johan gonna since with Lance. I hope Alberto ditches Astana after the way they are treating him like a rookie.

yes, i think its a disgrace. he should leave and go to some other team where he is allowed to ride to his full potential without being called a backstabber.

 

[VeloFidelis]

yes, i think its a disgrace. he should leave and go to some other team where he is allowed to ride to his full potential without being called a backstabber.

He's not a back stabber. He is going to win the Tour with Astana, and if he is smart, I think he will stay with Bruyneel and win several more.

 

[VeloFidelis]

I know what you are saying and can see your point. However, the choice between making time on you rivals and handing the yellow jersey to a French team may have been an easier choice on the road when you've been heavily criticized by the media for being the rider that missed the echolon on stage 3 and lost time to your team rival. Just a thought.

I get your points as well. It is easy to second guess from our keyboards. Being in that situation and feeling strong is, I am sure tough to reign in. He is a great talent, and he is riding with two great tacticians, one on the road, and one in the car. He would do well to take advantage of the situation and learn form them.

He will take this race over, either in Annecy or on the Ventoux. He just needs to let Johan do the thinking until his legs get the opportunity to do the talking... and they will.

 

[Publicus]

I get your points as well. It is easy to second guess from our keyboards. Being in that situation and feeling strong is, I am sure tough to reign in. He is a great talent, and he is riding with two great tacticians, one on the road, and one in the car. He would do well to take advantage of the situation and learn form them.

He will take this race over, either in Annecy or on the Ventoux. He just needs to let Johan do the thinking until his legs get the opportunity to do the talking... and they will.

The great tactician on the road has done everything short of sticking a stick in his spokes to undermine, why would he trust him? Lance is showing himself to be a terrible teammate in that regard. He had a real opportunity to take Contador under his wing, but I think his ego can't handle not being "declared" the man (sort of like Shaq). Nevermind that he KNOWS he isn't the man, he's just accustomed to being considered and treated like the man. He should have thought about that more before coming out of retirement.

 

[SpeedWay]

This three week fan thinks you need some valium and medications for your blood pressure which will undoubtedly lead you to a stroke.

Just a hater showing his true colors. They need a lot more than valium and medication to get that big monkey off their back. Interesting turn of events, now its the Yanks that are the target of his self-righteous rant. Psychcological projection on an internet forum, priceless. Been great so far, can't wait to hear the sh$t that comes out of the rest of these haters mouth when the Lance factor cracks them too.

 

[Futuroscope]

He's not a back stabber. He is going to win the Tour with Astana, and if he is smart, I think he will stay with Bruyneel and win several more.

im not calling him a backstabber, im saying he is being wrongly be accused of being one.

 

[elapid]

He would do well to take advantage of the situation and learn form them.

My problem with this is that Lance needs to be willing to teach, and I don't think he is other than by example, and Bruyneel needs to get off the fence and start backing either Lance or Contador. Bruyneel's team selection (Pauhlion over Horner), awarding the #1 jersey (to Contador), and contradictory statements regarding stage 7 are sending too many mixed messages.

 

[D-bagDetector]

The great tactician on the road has done everything short of sticking a stick in his spokes to undermine, why would he trust him? Lance is showing himself to be a terrible teammate in that regard...

What utter twaddle. You are a complete podium girl for AC.

 

[Futuroscope]

What utter twaddle. You are a complete podium girl for AC.

the same could be said about you in regards to lance.