Controversies!!!

[spanky wanderlust]

He said how ridiculous it was that media were even talking about this as unfair sports and that in his place Merckx would've always attacked and said Contador did the only thing right to do. It was on Belgian tv, pls any Belgian or Duchtman can confirm this.

has anyone posted a link to something that confirms this?

 

[red_flanders]

Yes, Virenque was certainly a turd sandwich that day.

But not nearly as bad as Alberto attacking the Yellow during a mechanical lol.

Not even close.

Agenda much?

 

[red_flanders]

has anyone posted a link to something that confirms this?

I'd say his racing career confirms it. Did he wait for Ocana when he punctured? When he crashed on a mountainside? No. He didn't wait for anyone, and no one waited for him.

What has gotten confused here is how the sport has evolved. For those who started watching the sport in the 90's or later, they have a very unique window into this topic. It is the advent of race radio and the actions of an American interpreting a set of unwritten rules he really didn't understand very well that they have seen. It's morphed the older traditions. Why did the "gift" to Pantani on Ventoux result in the reaction from Pantani? Because it was actually insulting. I felt the waiting for Ullrich was way overdone. The guy rode his bike into a freaking canyon for crying out loud, why would you wait? In my view, there was always an element of "I'm going to kick your *** anyway, so let me wait and show you how magnanimous I am". Brutal.

Race radios have only inflamed this. Without them, you have no idea how bad an incident is, and so you just go.

 

[Dedelou]

I'd say his racing career confirms it. Did he wait for Ocana when he punctured? When he crashed on a mountainside? No. He didn't wait for anyone, and no one waited for him.

What has gotten confused here is how the sport has evolved. For those who started watching the sport in the 90's or later, they have a very unique window into this topic. It is the advent of race radio and the actions of an American interpreting a set of unwritten rules he really didn't understand very well that they have seen. It's morphed the older traditions. Why did the "gift" to Pantani on Ventoux result in the reaction from Pantani? Because it was actually insulting. I felt the waiting for Ullrich was way overdone. The guy rode his bike into a freaking canyon for crying out loud, why would you wait? In my view, there was always an element of "I'm going to kick your *** anyway, so let me wait and show you how magnanimous I am". Brutal.

Race radios have only inflamed this. Without them, you have no idea how bad an incident is, and so you just go.

Thank you for bringing a bit of history and thoughtfulness to this discussion. You are making an important point. I would like add to that how "reacting" to a race situation still remains instinctual and that when the racing is intense, instead of orchestrated for media consumption, the behaviors are raw and probably rougher. I know I have harped on this elsewhere, but not without some evidences on my side: The big media relates to events (sports, political, or celebrities trivia) from the perspective of the controversial which they either constantly hype for hours, or invent in the event they can't find any handy in the racing situation.

 

[Steel4Ever]

Yes, Virenque was certainly a turd sandwich that day.

But not nearly as bad as Alberto attacking the Yellow during a mechanical lol.

Not even close.

Ha! Gotta laugh at all the simpleton easy-to-program people who believe Baby Andy's effed-up shift was a "Wha happened?!" mechanical! Ha!

He should be thanking AC for attacking him and teaching him a lesson as to what happens when you don't know how to operate your racing equipment.

Maybe in his final months at Saxo they can set up some pylons for Baby Andy in the parking lot and he can ride around practicing shifting "on the fly".

 

[outrage9]

Ha! Gotta laugh at all the simpleton easy-to-program people who believe Baby Andy's effed-up shift was a "Wha happened?!" mechanical! Ha!

He should be thanking AC for attacking him and teaching him a lesson as to what happens when you don't know how to operate your racing equipment.

If someone could show that he actually attempted to shift this is the theory that I could believe. Just haven't seen it even with the 2000' away, shaky helicopter, grainy low res pictures of a forum CSI. The hi def pics straight on of his hands from a few feet away show that his hands didn't move prior to the drop.

 

[Steel4Ever]

If someone could show that he actually attempted to shift this is the theory that I could believe. Just haven't seen it even with the 2000' away, shaky helicopter, grainy low res pictures of a forum CSI. The hi def pics straight on of his hands from a few feet away show that his hands didn't move prior to the drop.

LOTS of threads throughout this board about "the shift" -- search them out (complete with hi res vid caps, sram shifting dynamics/angles etc.).

Ditto for the stage 20 "attack".

The biggest controversy should be how a kid landed a major league contract without really knowing how to work his bike!

 

[Angliru]

Oh jeez, we are going back to rehashing what happened. My original point was just to highlight that these unwritten rules are broken all the time and it doesnt mean Contador should become some hate figure. Racing situations are different and people react differently and until they themselves are in the same situation they dont know how they will react, they can say I wouldnt do that but could be different if it actually happened, lets stick with examples of riders breaking unwritten rules whether you think its right or wrong.

Those that still linger on "hating" Contador for responding to Andy Schleck's attack and then not waiting when AS had to abort because of faulty shifting skills likely were looking for reasons to "hate" Contador anyway. My belief is if you start the aggressions/attacks, you shouldn't expect your opponents to wait for you while you get your stuff together. OP sorry to I did exactly what you hoped to avoid when you initiated this thread.

Back on point, was there any concern for Mayo when Armstrong carelessly ventured too close to the fans on the side of the road and was taken down by a child's mussette, also taking down Mayo in the process? And then almost taking him down again when in his effort to regain lost ground his shoe clipped out of his pedal while climbing out of the saddle.

 

[Angliru]

Thanks for the many examples of Bad Sportsmanship
Nothing to be proud of.
Plenty to be ashamed of.

But Alberto Tops the List.
Is there ANY doubt?

The only example of WINNING the Tour de France by attacking the Yellow.

If Chiappucci had defeated Greg by attacking during his mechanical, we would still be discussing it today.

Just like the "Contador Attack" will be discussed 20 years from now....

"Haters gonna to hate". Had this been Andy "attacking" Contador on a bad shift/lost chain, no doubt you'd side with Andy.

 

[valentius borealis]

What about '04 in the Tour when Axel Merckx and Virenque were in a breakaway thru the Massif Central and after Merckx doesn't contest the KOMs (so I recall correct me if I am wrong) Virenque attacks over the top of the final climb.

This particular incident was one of the first things that came to mind when I saw the original post. I remember hearing that the deal was that Axel would do the majority of the pacemaking to allow Virenque to get KOM points, with Axel to get the win if they were still ahead at the finish, only for Virenque to renege on the deal by attacking on the second last climb of the stage, leaving Axel on his own to be caught by the pack on the final climb.

An interesting footnote (although I am unaware if it was related or simply a coincidence) is that Omega Pharma (using the Davitamon name) switched from being a sponsor of Quick Step (who Virenque was riding for that day) to being a sponsor of Lotto (who Merckx was riding for) for the following year.

 

[durianrider]

you bet it was related..

 

[spanky wanderlust]

I'd say his racing career confirms it. Did he wait for Ocana when he punctured? When he crashed on a mountainside? No. He didn't wait for anyone, and no one waited for him.

What has gotten confused here is how the sport has evolved. For those who started watching the sport in the 90's or later, they have a very unique window into this topic. It is the advent of race radio and the actions of an American interpreting a set of unwritten rules he really didn't understand very well that they have seen. It's morphed the older traditions. Why did the "gift" to Pantani on Ventoux result in the reaction from Pantani? Because it was actually insulting. I felt the waiting for Ullrich was way overdone. The guy rode his bike into a freaking canyon for crying out loud, why would you wait? In my view, there was always an element of "I'm going to kick your *** anyway, so let me wait and show you how magnanimous I am". Brutal.

Race radios have only inflamed this. Without them, you have no idea how bad an incident is, and so you just go.

i agree, rf, that it does SEEM like something eddy would say. he IS the cannibal, afterall.

but people keep saying that he made some comments about the incident. i would like to cite these comments in my arguments with stupid people who think that all stages where andy didn't gain time should have been neutralized. unlike most forum posters, i don't like to cite random hearsay: "this guy on the internet said that eddy said..."

so, does anyone have a link to comments made by eddy merckx regarding the chain incident?

 

[spanky wanderlust]

If someone could show that he actually attempted to shift this is the theory that I could believe. Just haven't seen it even with the 2000' away, shaky helicopter, grainy low res pictures of a forum CSI. The hi def pics straight on of his hands from a few feet away show that his hands didn't move prior to the drop.

i don't know how old your bike is. but they don't have the shifters on the downtube anymore. and they haven't for a looooong time.

the sram stuff doesn't require you to move your hands to shift. it should be enough for you to understand that he is attacking and in a shifting situation. so, of course he is shifting.

or are you just feigning ignorance to disrupt the conversation?

 

[Jukebox]

I don't know if I would consider him a strong GC contender at this point yet, he was a co-captain with Levi and Discovery had several lighting that day up and thats just from one team. I think if he had been a tour winner prior to 07 it would have been a little different. I believe part of this "unwritten code" is in earning it to begin with. He was known to be a good climber prior to this tour but his abilities to be what he's known for today in a GT weren't there yet, IMO.

He was in the white jersey when this happened, and he was climbing with the elite.

 

[outrage9]

He was in the white jersey when this happened, and he was climbing with the elite.

It was also a retake of 2006 where the Tour had just lost it's patron and there was no clear leader. He was 3 minutes behind as was just another young maybe and his next closest young rider was Linus Gerdeman and Soler.

Ras, Valverde, Mayo, Evans, AC, Kloden, Levi, Sastre, and Kirchen were the contenders and from 2nd place on it was tight. I think there were a lot of other people to worry about than AC and I just don't think at this point he'd earned it yet.

I will always have an asterisk in my mind over this year for AC, he won it by the rules and it counts, I just think he earned 09 and 10, 07 was luck Ras was chucked. Yes, before you get your panties in a wad, I know what he did was wrong and a violation, but I don't see being in Italy when you said you were in Mexico the same as dumping a bag of blood in your body. If he was in Italy dumping blood in his body, now that's different.

 

[nicholaaaas]

In case I'm mistaken, every rider enters a race to win or at least attempt to. should another rider have an issue no matter what I don't see it as any reason to hold up. I don't have a problem with AC attacking. From what I saw Shleck did it himself shifting. Quit whining about it and move on.

exactly... in the US when you hear a crash behind you everyone picks the pace up

 

[nicholaaaas]

Or Shrek's utterly (and sh!tty) amateurish "control" over his racing machine.
Watch the AC/AS Stage 20 "attack" -- Baby Andy screws up yet another shift!
Conti shouldn't wait for anyone who doesn't know how to ride a bike.

Oh, BTW, Stage 3 was it, when the yellow jersey crashed...didn't see Baby Andy/Saxo sitting up and waiting -- just the opposite, they attacked.

Guess it's only "poor sportsmanship" when it's to your detriment.

exactly... wasn't that their tactics on the day? to hope for carnage on the cobbles and have one of their boys up there with their man for the cobbles?

 

[nicholaaaas]

Thanks for the many examples of Bad Sportsmanship
Nothing to be proud of.
Plenty to be ashamed of.

But Alberto Tops the List.
Is there ANY doubt?

The only example of WINNING the Tour de France by attacking the Yellow.

If Chiappucci had defeated Greg by attacking during his mechanical, we would still be discussing it today.

Just like the "Contador Attack" will be discussed 20 years from now....

what if he had a cramp would AC be allowed to attack him. ya'll would probably be crying about THAT 20 years from now anyway. once again... I don't like the move, but all I see it as is evening the score from stage 3. you all forget about that of try to talk circles around unwritten rules

 

[outrage9]

exactly... wasn't that their tactics on the day? to hope for carnage on the cobbles and have one of their boys up there with their man for the cobbles?

It could be debated that the cobbles were there for that very reason though.

If AC thought it was the right move, regardless of how the chain dropped, he wouldn't have posted the YT video and then try to hump Andy every time they got around each other and I think that was most of the reason he gave him the win on the Tourmelet. The only other possible reason, because I think he should have attacked for the stage win myself and got more time before the TT, is he assumed he would win anyway so was "granting" Andy a stage because AC thought he would take yellow to Paris, which is pretty common for a yellow jersey to do and the way I would give him more respect.

 

[nicholaaaas]

I'd say his racing career confirms it. Did he wait for Ocana when he punctured? When he crashed on a mountainside? No. He didn't wait for anyone, and no one waited for him.

What has gotten confused here is how the sport has evolved. For those who started watching the sport in the 90's or later, they have a very unique window into this topic. It is the advent of race radio and the actions of an American interpreting a set of unwritten rules he really didn't understand very well that they have seen. It's morphed the older traditions. Why did the "gift" to Pantani on Ventoux result in the reaction from Pantani? Because it was actually insulting. I felt the waiting for Ullrich was way overdone. The guy rode his bike into a freaking canyon for crying out loud, why would you wait? In my view, there was always an element of "I'm going to kick your *** anyway, so let me wait and show you how magnanimous I am". Brutal.

Race radios have only inflamed this. Without them, you have no idea how bad an incident is, and so you just go.

Funny how lance claimed it was a gift all these years... now this year he says I didn't give gifts in my time, I don't expect gifts now"

 

[nicholaaaas]

It could be debated that the cobbles were there for that very reason though.

If AC thought it was the right move, regardless of how the chain dropped, he wouldn't have posted the YT video and then try to hump Andy every time they got around each other and I think that was most of the reason he gave him the win on the Tourmelet. The only other possible reason, because I think he should have attacked for the stage win myself and got more time before the TT, is he assumed he would win anyway so was "granting" Andy a stage because AC thought he would take yellow to Paris, which is pretty common for a yellow jersey to do and the way I would give him more respect.

well then so was that "bump" in the road AS claimed to hit. either way tête-à-tête. so if you eliminate both those stages AC still wins

 

[Steel4Ever]

It could be debated that the cobbles were there for that very reason though.

If AC thought it was the right move, regardless of how the chain dropped, he wouldn't have posted the YT video and then try to hump Andy every time they got around each other and I think that was most of the reason he gave him the win on the Tourmelet.

Total PR (Public Relations) stunt.
Cycling is big business and involves a lot of money (coming from a lot of consumers). The companies (and to a lesser extent the teams themselves) want the public to like their employees so they will feel good about spending money on their product. I think it's a pretty safe bet AC was "suggested" to post that vid and to try and make amends with Baby Andy.

And/or, it could have been a tactic to take the rage out of AS. As Fignon said, AC made friends with Baby which took away his aggression.

Tell you one thing, the days of earning a nickname like 'Cannibal' or 'Badger' are so far gone they are but mere shadowy memories...

Now it's all 'Mr. 60%' and 'Pistolero'....tells you a lot about the current era of bike riders.

 

[No_Balls]

Still this discussion?

Not a big deal to me. AC followed his instincts as an professional bikerider. The biggest baby on the grid (he whines as hell) cried about it and the 3-week-fanboys sees an opportunity to slam AC because Versus have told them that AC is bad.