Cookson is worse for cycling than McQuaid

[Freddythefrog]

Re: Re:

You guys are criticizing Brian Cookson for taking a selfie with Eddie? Wow, this really is the silly season....

In all seriousness, I don't know how BC would be able to shun EM for something he did over 30 years ago. If he was expected to shun every doper in cycling history he would end up a very, very lonely person. Imo

Help me out a little here Dan. I can work out that Brian taking a selfie with Femke, wearing her European Champ medal and a couple of parakeets in the background along with a sectioned, induction motor and hypoid gear drive, would be bad form right now; you are making the point that time makes bad stuff good. So what about a nice shot the chicken, he has a certain charm and most people have forgotten what he did; it's been some time. And how about Brian getting up close with Floyd and that Credit Lyonais lion, they can do a reprise of his happy moment on the Champs Elysee. I can't remember a happier looking winner in Paris. Is that far enough back, it will be 10 years this year ? Or perhaps back further to say someone like Richard Virenque. He Has won the most polka dot Jerseys how about a nice selfie with him; is Richard Virenque "good" now all the people he stole glory from are forgotten and only the criminals are remembered? Though I am not sure Virenque played such a critical part in furthering the careers of other key riders like Eddy did, introducing Lance to Dr Ferrari, so perhaps he does not have the cred.

And again, another black mark for a family guy like Brain who likes to make sure son follows father in the game, I am not sure Virenque is getting his son to follow in the family tradition of doping like Eddy ensured Axel did. Such a glowing career Axel had; he would have been able to waltz off into the sunset from times with Mapie, Motorola, Phonak and T Mobile with not a spot on his name, the con, despite that palmares of connections, was very nearly complete and was only ruined by the spoilsports at the French Senate releasing that data after all those years. Didn't they know time makes good for some people.

Tell me Dan, would you introduce your son to Dr Ferari and say - see them clean riders, this guy will help you scr*w them over. If you do it right, a clean rider will never, ever beat you ?

Is that what you would tell your son ?

The queue is forming behind Brian for others who want selfies with the great man. Oh and if you rush there are still copies of "its not all about the bike" still available. Only 20 years to go.

Lonely ! Being a leader sure is. It is what he gets paid £235,000 a year for - significantly more than the Prime Minister of the UK - it is his "compensation". He is far removed from a club chairman doing it gratis, just for the perks of hob-nobbing. This is not a hobby for him and that is what he fails to understand and what makes him the wrong man for the sport right now.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

You guys are criticizing Brian Cookson for taking a selfie with Eddie? Wow, this really is the silly season....

In all seriousness, I don't know how BC would be able to shun EM for something he did over 30 years ago. If he was expected to shun every doper in cycling history he would end up a very, very lonely person. Imo

Help me out a little here Dan. I can work out that Brian taking a selfie with Femke, wearing her European Champ medal and a couple of parakeets in the background along with a sectioned, induction motor and hypoid gear drive, would be bad form right now; you are making the point that time makes bad stuff good. So what about a nice shot the chicken, he has a certain charm and most people have forgotten what he did; it's been some time. And how about Brian getting up close with Floyd and that Credit Lyonais lion, they can do a reprise of his happy moment on the Champs Elysee. I can't remember a happier looking winner in Paris. Is that far enough back, it will be 10 years this year ? Or perhaps back further to say someone like Richard Virenque. He Has won the most polka dot Jerseys how about a nice selfie with him; is Richard Virenque "good" now all the people he stole glory from are forgotten and only the criminals are remembered? Though I am not sure Virenque played such a critical part in furthering the careers of other key riders like Eddy did, introducing Lance to Dr Ferrari, so perhaps he does not have the cred.

And again, another black mark for a family guy like Brain who likes to make sure son follows father in the game, I am not sure Virenque is getting his son to follow in the family tradition of doping like Eddy ensured Axel did. Such a glowing career Axel had; he would have been able to waltz off into the sunset from times with Mapie, Motorola, Phonak and T Mobile with not a spot on his name, the con, despite that palmares of connections, was very nearly complete and was only ruined by the spoilsports at the French Senate releasing that data after all those years. Didn't they know time makes good for some people.

Tell me Dan, would you introduce your son to Dr Ferari and say - see them clean riders, this guy will help you scr*w them over. If you do it right, a clean rider will never, ever beat you ?

Is that what you would tell your son ?

The queue is forming behind Brian for others who want selfies with the great man. Oh and if you rush there are still copies of "its not all about the bike" still available. Only 20 years to go.

Lonely ! Being a leader sure is. It is what he gets paid £235,000 a year for - significantly more than the Prime Minister of the UK - it is his "compensation". He is far removed from a club chairman doing it gratis, just for the perks of hob-nobbing. This is not a hobby for him and that is what he fails to understand and what makes him the wrong man for the sport right now.

Thanks for the reply Freddy, I enjoy reading your comments. Honestly, I never thought my comment would stir up such emotion in anyone, let alone you.

I do believe that time heals.

I don't necessarily think that time heals all though, obviously there are crimes against humanity that are unforgivable.

In my opinion I don't think that there's a clear line that can ever be drawn for dopers to be back on our good graces mainly because they're not all held to the same standards.

The riders you mention are the most notorious dopers in cycling over the last 20 or 30 years. Do they deserve clemency 10, 20 30 years from now? Perhaps, perhaps not. It's not my nature to condemn someone forever if they clearly resolve themselves to making a change in their lives that includes contrition and humility.

The bigger issue than what my personal opinion is how does cycling move on from the doping era?

Will it ever actually become clean sport?

Do we vilify absolutely, forever? Is there direction as to how every ex-doper should be treated? Is this what people are frustrated with Brian Cookson over, that he doesn't set these policies?

Thanks again Freddy, I think these questions need to be asked more often, by all of us.

Cheers

 

[Freddythefrog]

Sport is facing a crisis. The model it has had in place for many years, since the wall came down, is no longer fit for purpose. Tennis, T&F, NFL, Cycling and others all face near identical problems. The largest sport on the planet both in participation count and commercial activity, is in meltdown, not because the sport is "bad" or "corrupt" of itself but that the governance of FIFA is totally unsuited for its role. Corruption is designed in.

Sport is essentially about creating a fair contest where competitors accept the rules and compete within the scope of those rules. When we find out that behind the scenes the rules are distorted and the Governance has somehow connived with certain factions to grant them advantages and favours, then there really is no point to that sport. Professional wrestling was Saturday afternoon national live TV, watched by millions for years. They, the competitors, like Mr 50%+ Rob Hayles' dad, Kowalski, took the p1ss big time with fixed bouts and eventually even its most myopic and devoted fans saw through it and it is no more. It was not just the competitors, the refs and bout organisers and the reporters all promulgated and fed the scam and yet anyone of them could have exposed it and started a clean up.

Right now cycling is a freak show. We had 1998 and the Festina Tour. We had the Tour of redemption. We had our new winner and then found he was even more of a monster than what went before, accompanied by a bunch of other monsters. Did Poulidor dope ? Undoubtedly but at least he didn't end up in hospital on life support trying to inject his own centrifuged blood, after it had gone off. Did Fignion dope? He admits it but at least he didn't have to chase his bike spinning around the road when the "on" switch was given a smack and stayed energised. And Roger de Vlaeminck won all those Roubaix races without burning off the field by having the latest battery technology that gave him 20 minutes whilst his competitors only had 10 at best. Cycling is not alone. in having a runaway freak show. Right now we are having foisted on us regular adverts for the Six Nations. UK Sport AD identify that the largest number of positives by sport is in Rugby, but testing only takes place at the higher levels. Just what is the pressure on 16, 17 and 18 year olds. There is no testing for them and they all know that if they are not big enough they won't make the grade. Who creates the atmosphere where self-policing adolescents (an oxymoron if ever there was one) is such that those youngsters might make that incredibly difficult decision to say "NO" ? Failure is designed in. That failure of design is the responsibility of the governance of the sport.

The freak show is a runaway event. The Sky fans are the housewives with handbags who used to clout Mike McManus over the head when he deliberately jumped out of the ring. They might enjoy the ridiculous nature of the entertainment in the here and now but after they have bought the memorabilia and St David's latest denims and then when they see the clip of Movistar "hide the bike, hide the bike" and the scales have fallen, they will not be coming back. Cycling, like a lot of other sports is now in a new era. Around every corner is someone with a mobile phone to record the bike charging off down the road and the cyclist missing the saddle as he gets on. Sport is no longer a glorified hobby with its biggest stars like Stanley Matthews getting just £5 per week, slightly less than a skilled toolmaker in a factory. Now, it commands such publicity, prestige events suck in many millions of public money. To stage the Tour start in Yorkshire required many millions of UK public money and with that public money comes a renewed sense of the need for fairness. The stakes have been increased. FIFA's old guard certainly had not worked out that the mood music had changed. The new broom - Platini had certainly not worked out that the mood music had changed.

What worked in the past is useless. A cosy little club of people at the top table, who have undoubtedly already sold out long before they got there, get to chose who from their number should be their new leader. FIFA got Platini. The IAAF got Seb Coe. The UCI got Cookson.

"But Cookson presided over a masterplan that saw British Cycling rise from a basket case after the Doyle-Emerson fiasco to a sporting colossus, the dominant nation in a global sport. Surely he knows how to manage effectively? Why not indulge his youthful fandom for the greatest rider the sport has ever produced?"

Let me put a proposal to you. Say it were to be exposed some point into the future that the turning point in performance terms for the sport in the UK, and the device that Cookson was able to use to promote that change was a myth. Scientist Keen working with diligent artisan come pundit for nearly 20 years on the TV, Boardman, did not achieve Barcelona success over East German youth doping product Jens Lehman by hard work and a novel bike, but rather they hit the EPO and managed it better first. At the heart of that UK Sport project to back BC was a lie. If that were the case then surely it would have come out before now, therefore that proposal must be wrong. Or rather, either it is wrong or anyone in a position the responsibility of which demanded that they were curious had been deliberately incurious over a significant period of time. What would that organisation look like that could manifest such corporate incuriosity ? What would its leader look like ?

You know where I am going with this. Let's cut to the chase. What might have sorted out cycling in 1998 is totally ineffective right now. Recycling "reformed" dopers as team managers. e,g, - hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil Yates, retiring from Sky because of his heart condition, and then him being back in the team car is no longer acceptable. The environment has to be made so hostile to his type, that he doesn't want to come back. "It is not like the old days - I've had enough". You know that when Lance is taking the p1ss in twitter feeds about Cookson and Eddy that you are not sending out any signal other than "don't worry folks behind the mandatory PR pronouncements it is business as usual". And that is where Cookson fails at every single step.

Yes it will be lonely for him at the top. What will work now will require a vigour and determination of immense proportion. Motor doping did not start with Femke, as so many others have written, the bad attitude trickles down from the top. I am not saying Cookson wants anything other than a clean sport. In terms of the motor doping undoubtedly some officials knew and had turned a blind eye. But Cookson is the guy who plays the mood music. Whilst he is flirting with Eddy the wrong record is on the juke box. The crisis is so great the juke box needs unplugging, kicking over and a guy with a megaphone needs to be stating a few home truths. Anti-doping needs some "untouchables" people who don't make half baked and highly telegraphed attempts to catch dopers but actually who really want to go after them. Inventive and good minds who will outwit the dopers. Selfies with Eddy is just the latest symptom Cookson exhibits. Cookson is fatally compromised with his past as senior cycling individual on the board of the holding company of Team Sky as they hired doping riders, doping doctors and doping team staff. Cookson looks the other way at the exact moment he should be most curious. he is deliberately incurious because being incurious has, over the past two decades, been very good for Cookson.

Cycling will remain just a runaway freak show, with the dopers getting even further ahead of the small fortune spent on near useless testing regimes, until a very different message comes from its President and all the executive organs. Whether anyone likes it or not, there is no place for past dopers like Eddy to be lauded if the freak show is to be stopped, even if he rode a good number of the best ever races.

 

[blackcat]

If that were the case then surely it would have come out before now, therefore that proposal must be wrong. Or rather, either it is wrong or anyone in a position the responsibility of which demanded that they were curious had been deliberately incurious over a significant period of time.

lemme add something here to the fantastic post.

...<non-looking responsibility or conspiracy> but this is a false dichotomy, at some point, the gatekeepers have heard everything like with Radcliffe, but they never went to print with it. Yes I appreciate there are quite strict libel laws in the UK, but you can always talk in code and smear without smearing. And tell folks Armstrong is a doper without telling folks Armstrong is a doper.

It wont sell papers tho.

The public wont be happy. They like the musculary christianity shtick and the gordonstoun and the chariots of fire and the boatrace and the oxbridge. They like those things. They like Radcliffe. They like Mo Farrah. There is something British about them, and unless you are a secessionist scot, you like those british things, you even like the nuclear stuff and the military ports in Scotland if you are not one of those secessionist scots

Bertolt Brecht Life of Galileo
Andrea: Unhappy is the land that breeds no hero.
Galileo: No, Andrea: Unhappy is the land that needs a hero.

 

[blackcat]

i am waiting for someone to point out to me about the religion of one of the protagonists in Chariots Of Fire, I have been using this shtick/meme for close to 24 months, someone can do me a favour, and find its antecedence, and no one wants to be a smartarse and point out benjamin d'israeli, or are everyone in on the joke?

 

[heart_attack_man]

Re:

i am waiting for someone to point out to me about the religion of one of the protagonists in Chariots Of Fire, I have been using this shtick/meme for close to 24 months, someone can do me a favour, and find its antecedence, and no one wants to be a smartarse and point out benjamin d'israeli, or are everyone in on the joke?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0obEjXwSKTQ

 

[MarkvW]

When you start paying athletes anything near what they are worth, they start insisting that they have rights. I think that the cyclists should have the responsibility of policing themselves. They should form a union. They could call it the International Cycling Union. That union would be a union of cyclists, for cyclists. It's a novel and revolutionary idea, for sure.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

i am waiting for someone to point out to me about the religion of one of the protagonists in Chariots Of Fire, I have been using this shtick/meme for close to 24 months, someone can do me a favour, and find its antecedence, and no one wants to be a smartarse and point out benjamin d'israeli, or are everyone in on the joke?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0obEjXwSKTQ

 

[thehog]

Cookson was elected as UCI President in 2013 thanks to key support from Russian oligarch Igor Makarov, who is president of the Russian Cycling Federation. Makerov’s Itera company is a sponsor of the European Cycling Union, and he owns and funds the Katusha WorldTour team.

After Cookson was elected, Nikita Kamaev, the executive director of the Russian Anti-Doping Agency (RUSADA) was installed on the UCI's Anti-Doping Commission.

Uh huh...

 

[oldcrank]

I think it is a good thing that our president, Brian Cookson OBE,
is a 'hands-on' president and actually does a recon of the World
Champs course with the man who designed it, Baron Merckx. It is
a sign our sport is in good hands.

 

[thehog]

The general consensus is Martin Gibbs runs the UCI not Brian Cookson.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I think it is a good thing that our president, Brian Cookson OBE,
is a 'hands-on' president and actually does a recon of the World
Champs course with the man who designed it, Baron Merckx. It is
a sign our sport is in good hands.

The good hands of a sycophant.

Which is a bad sign.

Alas.

Cookson needs to take some testosterone so he can grow a pair. I am all for that kinda doping.

 

[Benotti69]

Another fail for UCI....

https://mobile.twitter.com/UCI_cycling/status/699662808577916928

Jeez.....

 

[glassmoon]

Re:

Another fail for UCI....

https://mobile.twitter.com/UCI_cycling/status/699662808577916928

Jeez.....

well... it's just too hard to find the "clean" one, isn't it?

 

[Benotti69]

this belongs here and not the Contador thread

<snipped for for thread>


well.....the following from an exchange with a really smart guy may help in that regard....

The problem is exactly as you state it. Doping riders are entirely secondary, and trashing them merely makes the doping cudgel that much more effective for the corrupt administrators controlling the sport. It's also a huge distraction. Sports fans sometimes behave like real sheep.

....nice reframing of the issues eh....neatly separates the targets, all of which are legitimate though requiring special attention and focus....needlessly confusing one with the other just wastes effort and ammo....

....The Clinic has been pretty good at marshalling efforts to expose the dopers....it may now be time to dedicate some effort to figure out how the corruption picture plays out....keeping in mind this is going to be harder than just going after the obvious dopers who as the quote points out just well may be chaff to distract you from the main target....

...very much looking forward to have this move constructively forward....so lets stop being kneejerk driven sheep who are well trained to gobble down each new bit of doped fodder and then wait wait for the next morsel which will be along shortly....its now a standardized routine.....so lets get them serious detective thangs happening and go after the thing that helps birth and nurture the doping, the corrupt business structure...

Cheers

Cookson understands all of the above. For the administrators of cycling doping is part of the culture and they use it to their advantage.

 

[thehog]

Re: fat chance

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pat-mcquaid-cookson-has-done-little-in-the-fight-against-doping/

so fat pat thinks cookson has done little to tackle doping?...........

can brian's real success be seen in how here there is now much less

talk about doping?

Mark L

Isn't that the Catholic Church approach? Don't talk about?

 

[oldcrank]

While we are all aware of the hard work
our Brian Cookson OBE has done on the
anti-doping front, much of the good he
is doing for our sport is never reported.
There is a strong possibility there'll be a
few more women cyclists allowed in the
Olympics by 2020 because of Brian's push
for gender equality, and we may see the
return of a couple of our favourite track
cycling events to the Olympic program by
2020 as well. Keep fighting the good fight,
Brian, we do appreciate it!

 

[sniper]

While we are all aware of the hard work
our Brian Cookson OBE has done on the
anti-doping front, much of the good he
is doing for our sport is never reported.
There is a strong possibility there'll be a
few more women cyclists allowed in the
Olympics by 2020 because of Brian's push
for gender equality, and we may see the
return of a couple of our favourite track
cycling events to the Olympic program by
2020 as well. Keep fighting the good fight,
Brian, we do appreciate it!

 

[42x16ss]

Re: fat chance

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pat-mcquaid-cookson-has-done-little-in-the-fight-against-doping/

so fat pat thinks cookson has done little to tackle doping?...........

can brian's real success be seen in how here there is now much less

talk about doping?

Mark L

Isn't that the Catholic Church approach? Don't talk about?

Pretty sure Cardinal Pell is an endorser of that approach

 

[MarkvW]

The rest of the sporting world is reeling from huge doping scandals, but cycling remains relatively clean.

Go Brian Cookson! You're doing a heck of a job!

 

[Benotti69]

The cycling is clean boat never docked.......

 

[thehog]

Re:

The rest of the sporting world is reeling from huge doping scandals, but cycling remains relatively clean.

Go Brian Cookson! You're doing a heck of a job!

If only all those other sports would look at what cycling has done to clean up, then they might stand a chance. They all need David Millar as a consultant.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

The rest of the sporting world is reeling from huge doping scandals, but cycling remains relatively clean.

Go Brian Cookson! You're doing a heck of a job!

If only all those other sports would look at what cycling has done to clean up, then they might stand a chance. They all need David Millar as a consultant.

cycling yielding the fruits of that independent testing thing cookson got going on down there.

 

[Farcanal]

So let me get your collective opinions into some sort of order here.....

Everybody's doping because if you're winning you have to be doping to beat all the others who dope. Ok got that.

If you're not winning you still have to be doping because you wouldn't be satisfied with not winning and you'd dope so you could. Ok got that too.

If you're not winning and not testing positive it's because all your mates in the system are letting you know the test date so you can get round it. Not sure I got that.

If you are winning and you're not testing positive, even though you know you'll get tested, then your mates in the system are burying the results or the labs are incompetent/corrupt too. Even less sure I got that.

If nobody is testing positive then the sport is not doing enough testing but, even if it was, nobody would still test positive because everybody's mates are letting everybody know about the tests or burying the results or the labs are.........Really starting to lose this.

So as no amount of testing will ever catch any dopers, because it's all too corrupt and they have nothing to fear, everybody is doping. Isn't that where we came in?

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

So let me get your collective opinions into some sort of order here.....

Twist away......or can you quote the below?

Everybody's doping because if you're winning you have to be doping to beat all the others who dope. Ok got that.

Doping is part of the culture of the sport, top to bottom. That has been shown time and time again.

If you're not winning you still have to be doping because you wouldn't be satisfied with not winning and you'd dope so you could. Ok got that too.

Everyone running the sport has an interest in maintaining the omérta and not upsetting the applecart.

If you're not winning and not testing positive it's because all your mates in the system are letting you know the test date so you can get round it. Not sure I got that.

The testing is a joke. Again this has been proven time and time again. Ask Froome, he never gets tested on Tenerife where he does his most intensive training

If you are winning and you're not testing positive, even though you know you'll get tested, then your mates in the system are burying the results or the labs are incompetent/corrupt too. Even less sure I got that.

You are not getting a lot. Maybe time to check out of the clinic and back to sycofandom.

If nobody is testing positive then the sport is not doing enough testing but, even if it was, nobody would still test positive because everybody's mates are letting everybody know about the tests or burying the results or the labs are.........Really starting to lose this.

You lost when you came in. Plenty are testing positive, but all are small fry. Danielson last big positive. But again you twist.....

So as no amount of testing will ever catch any dopers, because it's all too corrupt and they have nothing to fear, everybody is doping. Isn't that where we came in?

Dopers are getting caught. But show us where the sport has changed with regards to doping. Show us how the sport cleaned up. Sky riders are bettering EPO fuelled times up cols. How?

Cookson promised independent fully funded testing that was needed to clean up cycling. Where is it?