Coronavirus: How dangerous a threat?

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If employees can prove serious and willful negligence then they should bring suit.

What probably should have happened is all essential employees should have refused to work as you suggest. Truck drivers, meat packers, nurses, grocery workers and the like. For safety sake.

Grocers, Hospital execs, Trucking companies ought to have their asses sued off. We need trials now.
You should check out the July 20th issue of New Yorker with article by Jane Mayer: Back to the Jungle. It deals with Mountaire, a large chicken processor and major Trump donor. The Labor Dept has extended indemnification to them, Tyson and others under Trump's executive order as long as they make some "good faith effort" to follow CDC guidelines. Additionally OSHA has virtually zero response to worker complaints on job conditions. Along with the NLRB, packed with all Trump appointees Mountaire is also working to negate Union labor contracts.
How did this Executive order come about? The "threat" of meat shortages spurred by Mountaire, Tyson and others encouraged Trump to spring into action. Reality: no shortage and an increase in meat exports since the pandemic. Profits up, worker compensation down and consumers sense no shortage which will no doubt be a campaign talking point.
So essential workers are f*cked under this program and it looks like additional emergency payments or unemployment compensation extensions are not on the radar either. Who are you going to bring to court?
 
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once WHO calls something a pandemic, countries are mandated to carry out pandemic plans.
Fauci has received a lot of criticism for saying as late as the third week in February, I think it was, that we didn't have to worry about the virus. And fair enough, this criticism. But many of the people who keep bringing this up would be howling with rage if Fauci had urged an immediate lockdown, and it turned out the virus was no threat. In fact, some of these people are denying that the lockdown had any effect, and saying we never should have done it.

People should understand that every freaking year new viruses are discovered that could be a threat to human health, and possibly begin a pandemic. No one knows in the early days whether they will or not. There's no way to predict without a lot more knowledge than is available at the time. The sequence of SARS-CoV-2 was known in early January; in retrospect we can see some features that make it more contagious than the first SARS. But that's hindsight. We don't really know what a virus will or won't do until it starts infecting people.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2475551/
 
You should check out the July 20th issue of New Yorker with article by Jane Mayer: Back to the Jungle. It deals with Mountaire, a large chicken processor and major Trump donor. The Labor Dept has extended indemnification to them, Tyson and others under Trump's executive order as long as they make some "good faith effort" to follow CDC guidelines. Additionally OSHA has virtually zero response to worker complaints on job conditions. Along with the NLRB, packed with all Trump appointees Mountaire is also working to negate Union labor contracts.
How did this Executive order come about? The "threat" of meat shortages spurred by Mountaire, Tyson and others encouraged Trump to spring into action. Reality: no shortage and an increase in meat exports since the pandemic. Profits up, worker compensation down and consumers sense no shortage which will no doubt be a campaign talking point.
So essential workers are f*cked under this program and it looks like additional emergency payments or unemployment compensation extensions are not on the radar either. Who are you going to bring to court?
Use your imagination and ponder what would have happened (and be currently happening) here in this Country had the food supply chain workers & unions decided to behave like public school teachers & their unions.

Tort lawyers will sue every employer in the Country even if they did everything possible to protect their workers. Take a very close look at workers compensation after all the S&W lawsuits gear up and work their way through civil courts.

It’s exceptionally easy to see who will get brought to court and it won’t be workers, or teachers, or doctors, or nurses. It will be employers.
 
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There have been at least 4,005,414 cases of coronavirus in the United States since the start of the pandemic, and at least 143,820 people have died across the country, according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins University.
Experts at John Hopkins recorded the first US case on January 21:
  • It took the country 99 days to reach 1 million cases on April 28.
  • It then took 43 more days to reach 2 million cases on June 10.
  • It took another 28 days to surpass 3 million cases on July 8.
It has taken the United States only 15 additional days to surpass 4 million cases.
The average number of new US cases is now rising by more than 2,600 every hour, the highest rate in the world, Reuters reports.
 
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There have been at least 4,005,414 cases of coronavirus in the United States since the start of the pandemic, and at least 143,820 people have died across the country, according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins University.
Experts at John Hopkins recorded the first US case on January 21:
  • It took the country 99 days to reach 1 million cases on April 28.
  • It then took 43 more days to reach 2 million cases on June 10.
  • It took another 28 days to surpass 3 million cases on July 8.
It has taken the United States only 15 additional days to surpass 4 million cases.
The average number of new US cases is now rising by more than 2,600 every hour, the highest rate in the world, Reuters reports.
So in 7 more days will have 5 million infections. In 11 days, 6 million. In 14 days 7 million. 16 days from now, 8 million. 17 days, 9 million. 18 days, the earth turns into a black hole.

So we have 18 Days. Live well. None of us will see the 2020 Tour de France.
 
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I know that we have discussed this a bit in this thread, but without getting into the politics of it, I'm pretty burned out on Idaho politicians insisting that "they died with Covid, not of Covid". The most recent instance is a critical care nurse who died after contracting Covid. An otherwise healthy 40 year old woman who contracted Covid, fought it well for a week, but then it attacked her cardiac muscle and killed her. A small town politician was basically making fun of the death on fake book, and insisted that the nurse didn't die from Covid, she died of heart failure. One, her heart didn't just fail, it was attacked by a virus. Two, she didn't have a heart attack, clots or valve issue, she had a virus in the cardiac muscle. She died from Covid.

Aside from that stupid argument, what is it with politicians and TV personalities, making fun of soldiers, and medical professionals?!

If thy want to play that game, no one has died of Covid, or cancer for that matter...

The other stupid thing is that if you convince your supporters that its no big deal and some/many of them die, you won't have supporters.
 
We don't really know how kids will contract/transmit because we haven't crammed them 300, 600, 1,200 into a building yet.
Sweden did, but unfortunately, the brilliant Anders Tegnell--mastermind of the herd immunity or bust approach--didn't think to take advantage of that situation with detailed studies. However, there is a yet to be peer-reviewed study that reported there was no difference in case rate of the less than 20 yr old group between Sweden and Finland, which has closed schools. That's encouraging, but not all countries that opened schools have the same results. There may be key differences in class sizes and other measures.

Sweden has also claimed the evidence suggests that teachers were not infected at a greater rate than members of other professions or jobs. But I'm not sure that supports the conclusion that children don't spread the virus much. We know that adults in Sweden have a much higher case rate than Finnish adults--reflected in the fact noted by the link that in Finland, children make up a much larger proportion of cases. So if teachers in Sweden simply have about the same case rate as other adults, that suggests that children are spreading it to teachers as much as adult-adult transmission occurs in other jobs or professions. One could also argue that most cases in adults occur not at work, where perhaps more restrictive measures are in place, but in public places, and at home with their kids. To the extent that's the case, comparing teachers with other professions provides little evidence that children don't spread the virus.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-sweden-schools/swedens-health-agency-says-open-schools-did-not-spur-pandemic-spread-among-children-idUSKCN24G2IS

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-19/covid-s-spread-in-schools-is-questioned-in-latest-nordic-study
 
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Sweden did, but unfortunately, the brilliant Anders Tegnell--mastermind of the herd immunity or bust approach--didn't think to take advantage of that situation with detailed studies. However, there is a yet to be peer-reviewed study that reported there was no difference in case rate of the less than 20 yr old group between Sweden and Finland, which has closed schools. That's encouraging, but not all countries that opened schools have the same results. There may be key differences in class sizes and other measures.

Sweden has also claimed the evidence suggests that teachers were not infected at a greater rate than members of other professions or jobs. But I'm not sure that supports the conclusion that children don't spread the virus much. We know that adults in Sweden have a much higher case rate than Finnish adults--reflected in the fact noted by the link that in Finland, children make up a much larger proportion of cases. So if teachers in Sweden simply have about the same case rate as other adults, that suggests that children are spreading it to teachers as much as adult-adult transmission occurs in other jobs or professions. One could also argue that most cases in adults occur not at work, where perhaps more restrictive measures are in place, but in public places, and at home with their kids. To the extent that's the case, comparing teachers with other professions provides little evidence that children don't spread the virus.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-sweden-schools/swedens-health-agency-says-open-schools-did-not-spur-pandemic-spread-among-children-idUSKCN24G2IS

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-19/covid-s-spread-in-schools-is-questioned-in-latest-nordic-study
There was some info (not necessarily 'research') out of Israel and the quote was something along the lines of schools being worse than bars.
 
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Regarding the schools I think it it important how the system works. There are huge differences between the countries, so you can probably not necessarily compare the risk.

I have never been to an American high school, but I've seen enough high school movies to know that you have a course system in which pupils mix a lot, while for instance in Germany there is a class system in which (at most schools) every pupil from form 5-10 has their classroom and their specific group / bubble already.
In the US you have cafeterias where everybody has lunch - here it's usually more like a snack bar that can be easily closed (and was in recent weeks when the schools were open again).
Clubs at school, which are a lot less important here, were closed too. For the next term most schools are planning to hold those in which distance can be organized, while most sports will be cancelled. Ususally teenagers spend way less time at school here, sports and hobbies are mostly independent from school.
Of course we have people travelling to school by bus, too, but as I know it, the huge majority of pupils are getting to school on their bikes, some by foot, some are brought by car.
I think regarding primary school the systems may be more similar in different countries.
I really don't know what the schools in Israel looks like.
 
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Regarding the schools I think it it important how the system works. There are huge differences between the countries, so you can probably not necessarily compare the risk.

I have never been to an American high school, but I've seen enough high school movies to know that you have a course system in which pupils mix a lot, while for instance in Germany there is a class system in which (at most schools) every pupil from form 5-10 has their classroom and their specific group / bubble already.
In the US you have cafeterias where everybody has lunch - here it's usually more like a snack bar that can be easily closed (and was in recent weeks when the schools were open again).
Clubs at school, which are a lot less important here, were closed too. For the next term most schools are planning to hold those in which distance can be organized, while most sports will be cancelled. Ususally teenagers spend way less time at school here, sports and hobbies are mostly independent from school.
Of course we have people travelling to school by bus, too, but as I know it, the huge majority of pupils are getting to school on their bikes, some by foot, some are brought by car.
I think regarding primary school the systems may be more similar in different countries.
I really don't know what the schools in Israel looks like.

Granted I was in high school in the early 90's, but the system hasn't changed. About 45 minutes per class and then you leave that classroom for your next classroom with all students in the hall ways at the same time and each class is likely all or mostly different students from the previous one. Lunch in the cafeteria is about 1/3rd of the students in the entire building. Some study halls if they are in the auditorium can be over 100 students.
 
Shooting the messenger, always a good solution!
Now the WH Administratively are backing down on their C19 mask resistance and have extended their tepid support toward Birx and Fauci. No doubt due to the overwhelming public support for the actual Science in the room.
Meanwhile Fox news and the RNC have a coordinated effort blaming demonstrations and viral issues on "weak....Democratic mayors and governors..." and that Trump, the self-proclaimed "law and order President" should send Federal armed forces to quell the problems. It's completely creative campaign tactics to light the fire and then lead the Fire Department to the rescue, more or less.
We'll see in Seattle tonight if, what have been relatively peaceful demonstrations seek out the Fed targets as part of a provoked TV event. This is getting surreal, again!
 
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Many,most of Chris's points about litigation are correct..many things posted here about vaccines are illuminating and should give at least a glimmer of hope to even the most pessimistic.
We are @6 months in..nothing needs to be done in oh my god mode..all businesses,all levels of American government and society have some solid base lines on preventative and corrective behavior.
Testing..if you send anyone intentionally into a school or workplace without establishment of safety through testing you should not be immune to legal action..
If you prepare food,fix cars or bikes,cut hair or paint nails..if you intend to have intentional and direct contact with the public with an unknown Covid status and anyone gets sick,that anyone should be able to sue you for a callous and contemptuous response for public health.
Tests may not be readily available..but we have known for @5 months it was the only answer.
Nobody should be legally relieved of responsibility
 
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Americans were told,point blank..straight out..
"Anybody who wants a test can get one"
plain language, nothing else.
If that is not the case( we all,or should have known it was false) Americans should hold leaders responsible for our national health accountable..that should include the horrific and deadly health outcomes from the testing void and false information
 
American:
Dials 911 emergency number
operator:
"911 emergency,this is Donna,what is your emergency?"
Called
" My child was floating at the bottom of the swimming pool..he is not breathing..we need help!!!hurry!! "
Operator
" Help is on the way!! "
Another caller..
"911 this is Donna what is your emergency?"
Called
" My husband attempted to use his Harbor Freight welder to repair a swing set, I think it electrocuted him!!I can't feel his heart beat!! "
Operator
" An ambulance and paramedics are on the way!! "
Operator..
"911 emergency,this is Donna what is your emergency?"
Caller
" Our neighbors kid darted out in front of the car..his bicycle is flattened and blood is coming from his ear!!help me please!! "
Donna
" Hold tight I medical and police in route to your location!! "
All three situations go on for over an hour..everyone dies..all involved are devastated beyond comprehension..
All start to investigate what went wrong..
Call 911 to demand answers..
Supervisor explains that they will have to wait until Donna returns from her extended lunch break,she is at the driving range hitting a bucket of balls..
Sorry about the mix up the supervisor says apologetically..before he hangs up
I think this is Covid related
 
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Americans were told,point blank..straight out..
"Anybody who wants a test can get one"
plain language, nothing else.
If that is not the case( we all,or should have known it was false) Americans should hold leaders responsible for our national health accountable..that should include the horrific and deadly health outcomes from the testing void and false information
MARCH 6th, nearly FIVE months ago, we were told that lie about "beautiful tests"! It still is not true today FIVE months later! Plus even those who do get tests wait in line for 3, 5, 8, 12 hours. Even worse, the results come back in 3-18 days. The results are meaningless at that point. Aside from medical personnel and patients in care, only politicians and athletes get quick turn around results.
 
Totally normal thing to air on the teevee
Mikovits is a real piece of work. Claims she was part of the French team that isolated HIV (no evidence she ever worked there). Claims she discovered the virus responsible for chronic fatigue syndrome (thoroughly rebutted). Says SARS-CoV-2 was created in a lab in NC. Says going to the beach should be encouraged, because there are "sequences in the sand", "healing microbes in the water."

The funniest part, though, is that she debunked Andrew Kauffman, who has an even further out conspiracy theory that viruses don't exist. Kauffman thinks the sequence claimed to be the virus is just nucleic acid in exosomes, small vesicles that transport material from cell to cell in our bodies. Kauffman claims C19 is caused by stress or unhealthy living, and everything thought to be a virus is just an exosome. Mikovits came down hard on him for that. When you get corrected by someone like Mikovits, you are really far out.

Maybe these conspiracy theorists will annihilate each other. That would solve a lot of problems.
 

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