Coronavirus: How dangerous a threat?

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Washington is very slowly adding movement over the next month. Stay at Home order good to May 31st, announced yesterday so Happy May Day to everyone stuck like us.
I think we will parallel California for similar reasons...we know no one that has been tested. Not One Person.

My husband actually was tested for it last week. No clue when the results come back, however he is very unlikely to have it currently. He was tested because he works at a VA Hospital and someone on staff died from it ad multiple people had gotten sick. That's when they decided to test the entire staff. No clue when we'll get results back though.

As for NC there is a city outside Charlotte that decided to ignore the Governor's stay at home order and decided to reopen the city.
 
I'm not sure about a number of things stated here, but it is interesting to at least consider some of it. I'm curious how much we will know in 6 months or a year. What did we do right, what did we get wrong?

he may be right about some things, but he seems to be ill-informed (Germany is not aiming for herd immunity for example, as he says), and was wrong about most things he said about it in the past, for example "Italy is already half way through the disease" mid March (numbers of death have gone up from 2.5k to 28k since then) or "I will be surprised if number of deaths in Israel surpasses ten, and even five now with the restrictions" (230 now).

 
For some, surviving C19 may be only the beginning:

“Mechanical ventilation is a life-saving intervention,” says Hassan Khouli, chair of critical care at the Cleveland Clinic in Ohio. Yet even when patients survive, “some of them will continue to be profoundly weak,” he says. “It can get to the point where they can’t perform daily activities — shaving, taking a bath, preparing a meal — to the point they could be bedridden.’’

Some people never fully recover, says Michael Rodricks, medical director of Somerset’s intensive-care unit. And those who do often must relearn basic skills such as walking, talking and swallowing.

“There are a lot of other dangers when we use mechanical ventilation,’’ says Richard Lee, interim chief of pulmonary diseases and critical-care medicine at the University of California at Irvine. “We have to sedate patients for them to tolerate a mechanical breathing tube in their lungs, and the longer you are in an ICU on sedation requiring a machine, all those other things — like decreased muscle tone and strength and the risk of hospital-acquired infections — increase.’’

When a person goes on a ventilator, the muscles that typically handle their breathing start to atrophy within hours. Many patients are put on sedatives to make it easier for the machine to take over. But this immobilizes other parts of their body and leads to widespread weakness.

The risk of dying remains higher than average for at least a year after getting off a ventilator, a risk tied to both the number of days spent on the machine and other health conditions the patient had before falling sick.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...4IS84gczeksg2bz7RipCb_aJ6z5IpHamj1T_yZqLzGJqE

It had been over a month since Mirabai Nicholson-McKellar was infected with the coronavirus, and the 35-year-old filmmaker thought she was on her way to recovery. Then the shortness of breath came back, followed by chest pains.

A visit to the emergency room and a second test for Covid-19 gave another positive result. Just three days earlier, she’d been cleared by health authorities in Australia’s New South Wales state, and was allowed to end her home quarantine after going 72 hours without symptoms.

“When is this going to end? I think about that constantly,” she said of the twists and turns in her health. “Am I still contagious? How do I know if I’m not contagious?”

Her experience adds to a growing number of reports of patients appearing to have a reactivation of symptoms, testing positive again, or even potentially being reinfected. Such incidents don’t align with the generally accepted understanding of how virus infections work and spread.

So far, there hasn’t been enough research to conclude why symptoms seem to re-emerge in some people, and whether they experience reinfection or if the virus persists for weeks. One possibility is that Covid-19 causes blood clots that may cause potentially dangerous complications unless treated with anticoagulant medications, said Edwin J.R. van Beek, chair of clinical radiology at the University of Edinburgh’s Queens Medical Research Institute.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ry-haunts-virus-survivors-who-fall-sick-again

“Mechanical ventilation is a life-saving intervention,” says Hassan Khouli, chair of critical care at the Cleveland Clinic in Ohio. Yet even when patients survive, “some of them will continue to be profoundly weak,” he says. “It can get to the point where they can’t perform daily activities — shaving, taking a bath, preparing a meal — to the point they could be bedridden.’’

Some people never fully recover, says Michael Rodricks, medical director of Somerset’s intensive-care unit. And those who do often must relearn basic skills such as walking, talking and swallowing.

“There are a lot of other dangers when we use mechanical ventilation,’’ says Richard Lee, interim chief of pulmonary diseases and critical-care medicine at the University of California at Irvine. “We have to sedate patients for them to tolerate a mechanical breathing tube in their lungs, and the longer you are in an ICU on sedation requiring a machine, all those other things — like decreased muscle tone and strength and the risk of hospital-acquired infections — increase.’’

When a person goes on a ventilator, the muscles that typically handle their breathing start to atrophy within hours. Many patients are put on sedatives to make it easier for the machine to take over. But this immobilizes other parts of their body and leads to widespread weakness.

The risk of dying remains higher than average for at least a year after getting off a ventilator, a risk tied to both the number of days spent on the machine and other health conditions the patient had before falling sick.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...4IS84gczeksg2bz7RipCb_aJ6z5IpHamj1T_yZqLzGJqE



It had been over a month since Mirabai Nicholson-McKellar was infected with the coronavirus, and the 35-year-old filmmaker thought she was on her way to recovery. Then the shortness of breath came back, followed by chest pains.



Mirabai Nicholson-McKellar at a hospital in Byron Bay, Australia, on April 28.

Photographer: Mirabai Nicholson-McKellar

A visit to the emergency room and a second test for Covid-19 gave another positive result. Just three days earlier, she’d been cleared by health authorities in Australia’s New South Wales state, and was allowed to end her home quarantine after going 72 hours without symptoms.

“When is this going to end? I think about that constantly,” she said of the twists and turns in her health. “Am I still contagious? How do I know if I’m not contagious?”



Her experience adds to a growing number of reports of patients appearing to have a reactivation of symptoms, testing positive again, or even potentially being reinfected. Such incidents don’t align with the generally accepted understanding of how virus infections work and spread.

So far, there hasn’t been enough research to conclude why symptoms seem to re-emerge in some people, and whether they experience reinfection or if the virus persists for weeks. One possibility is that Covid-19 causes blood clots that may cause potentially dangerous complications unless treated with anticoagulant medications, said Edwin J.R. van Beek, chair of clinical radiology at the University of Edinburgh’s Queens Medical Research Institute.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ry-haunts-virus-survivors-who-fall-sick-again

[Levitt] was wrong about most things he said about it in the past

Ironically, statistics tells us that the odds that one researcher will make a few correct predictions may be fairly high, but these correct predictions are irrelevant to the likelihood of further correct predictions.

Levitt seems to be one of those stuck on the idea that viral spreading has its own dynamics, independent of what societies do to affect it. Another is a prominent Israeli military commander, who claimed that flattening of the curve occurs within 6-8 weeks, regardless of what countries do or don't do. There are many examples that don't conform to this pattern.
 
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From what I heard so far about intubation, "some people never fully recover" is quite an understatement. In German TV a doctor said that there's about a 10% chance to get back to a somewhat normal life as before.

So if you take into account that more than 90% of the elderly people intubated on ICU's die, a palliative treatment instead may actually be a better way for it to be handled, for many people at nursing homes and so on.

Of course, no one wants a triage, but some of those "letting people die in the nursing homes" reports about some countries seem to be a bit too simplified as well.
 
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If you claim you have 'enormous evidence' and then you don't give any, that's pretty poor form.

It's poor form, but works if you want to attack China, because a lab accident, though unlikely, can't be ruled out as certainly as a bio-engineered virus (note that Pompeo was smart enough not to go down that dead end).

In simple terms, if the intermediate host is a bat--which seems unlikely, but is conceivable--then SARS-CoV-2 might have existed in a lab studying bats, and escaped via an accident. If the intermediate host is a pangolin (though there is evidence against that, too), a lab accident is unlikely, because the strong similarity of pangolin CoVs to SARS-CoV-2 has only recently been discovered, and it. seems unlikely, though not impossible, that any Chinese lab was studying pangolin CoVs at the time of the outbreak.

Another possible intermediate host is civets, which were the host for the first SARS-CoV. However, there is some evidence against them, too. I don't know if any Chinese labs were studying civet viruses at the time of the outbreak. Ditto with other possible hosts.

The bottom line is that a lab accident can't be definitely ruled out until the intermediate host is identified, and that may not happen for a long time, if ever. As long as that is uncertain, a bat is possible, which means a lab accident was possible. So Trump/Pompeo can use this as a political football, without being called out as definitely wrong and anti-scientific. And if the intermediate host should turn out to be a bat, the evidence for a lab accident will be stronger, though still far from compelling. There is other evidence against a lab accident other than the purely scientific one based on viral sequences.
 
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It's poor form, but works if you want to attack China, because a lab accident, though unlikely, can't be ruled out as certainly as a bio-engineered virus (note that Pompeo was smart enough not to go down that dead end).

In simple terms, if the intermediate host is a bat--which seems unlikely, but is conceivable--then SARS-CoV-2 might have existed in a lab studying bats, and escaped via an accident. If the intermediate host is a pangolin (though there is evidence against that, too), a lab accident is unlikely, because the strong similarity of pangolin CoVs to SARS-CoV-2 has only recently been discovered, and it. seems unlikely, though not impossible, that any Chinese lab was studying pangolin CoVs at the time of the outbreak.

Another possible intermediate host is civets, which were the host for the first SARS-CoV. However, there is some evidence against them, too. I don't know if any Chinese labs were studying civet viruses at the time of the outbreak. Ditto with other possible hosts.

The bottom line is that a lab accident can't be definitely ruled out until the intermediate host is identified, and that may not happen for a long time, if ever. As long as that is uncertain, a bat is possible, which means a lab accident was possible. So Trump/Pompeo can use this as a political football, without being called out as definitely wrong and anti-scientific. And if the intermediate host should turn out to be a bat, the evidence for a lab accident will be stronger, though still far from compelling. There is other evidence against a lab accident other than the purely scientific one based on viral sequences.
There seems to be a consensus among geneticists that the virus was not bio-engineered. Politicians sewing doubts is par for the course especially with an election on the horizon. Questioning the safety of a lab that Americans were actually working at is an odd one. Yes lab accidents happen . How that can be proved I'm not sure but maybe it's not about proving it but just keeping that doubt in the minds of the public. And many people today have 24 hour memories it seems.............
 
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If I sit a six pack of beer in the sun all day will the sun/UV rays kill C19? It could be anything, but I want to make sure that my beer is C19 clear! :) I'm being serious too though, if you put things in the sun for 8 hours does it have any effect on C19 that might be on the surface. When I Google it, I'm not getting the source I want to answer the question (you know, like a scientist) (most of the answers are about the sun not killing C19 on human skin, ect).
 
If I sit a six pack of beer in the sun all day will the sun/UV rays kill C19? It could be anything, but I want to make sure that my beer is C19 clear! :) I'm being serious too though, if you put things in the sun for 8 hours does it have any effect on C19 that might be on the surface. When I Google it, I'm not getting the source I want to answer the question (you know, like a scientist) (most of the answers are about the sun not killing C19 on human skin, ect).

What are you concerned about, virus in the beer, or virus on the surface of the can? If the latter, just wash the can with soap or alcohol. If the former, you are being too paranoid. Beer is sterilized.

Virus on the surface of an empty beer can sitting in the sun almost certainly would not last long. If the can were filled with beer, it would last somewhat longer, because the beer would absorb some of the incoming heat. I'd think after all day in the sun, though, the beer would be pretty hot,--the can would probably explode--and the virus would probably be gone.
 
Another translated newspaper article, addressing some findings we discussed here before:


Scientists should not be tempted to draw premature conclusions from their studies to influence policy, warns Herman Goossens.

Who? Professor of Medical Microbiology (UAntwerp) and director of the Laboratory of Clinical Biology (UZAntwerp). Coordinator of the Prepare and Recover project.
What? It may not be such a good idea that the scientific review of articles is postponed.

An article by the research group of the German virologist Chris tian Drosten on the role of children in the spread of the coronavirus and the risk of a resurgence by the reopening of schools made me reflect on the role of scientists and the peer review process.

From a nice recent analysis of 78 publications by the British Royal College of Paediatrics, we can conclude that: children are less sick if they are infected, no direct evidence of transmission from children to adults has yet been found, and children may not play an important role. role in the spread of the virus. Of course, that does not mean that children cannot infect adults. The virus does not know that it is in the throat of a child or adult. So transfer will certainly happen. Does this mean that grandchildren are their great parents can see? Perhaps, but given that older people are the most vulnerable group, I would be very careful here, until we have more evidence of the limited role of young children in the transmission of the virus. The big unknown is the role of asymptomatic children in the spread of the virus.

Based on his studies, Christian Drosten warned about an unlimited reopening of the schools, which caused a lot of controversy. Every Friday we have our meeting of the EU-funded Recover project, in which many European experts, including Drosten, participate. Last Friday, May 1, we had a very animated and engaging discussion. We were very critical of each other, and that's how it should be. We found this an interesting study (Drosten is a brilliant virologist), but felt that he translated his virological results too prematurely and not nuanced enough into policy consequences. We also came to the conclusion that this article had better passed a peer review first.

Accelerated peer review

Scientists write articles and send them to (preferably) a top magazine. Journals send the articles to 'peers', which are preferably top scientists who are well acquainted with the research. They are expected to propose not to publish the article, or to publish the article, usually under certain conditions, for example after additional experiments or statistical analyzes, or with suggestions for rewriting the conclusions. When the SARS-CoV-2 epidemic broke out in January, some journals accepted that scientific findings could be published, even if they were not tested until later.

Originally I was enthusiastic about that, but now I wonder if it was wise. Numerous studies have now been published that will only go through the peer review later. At the same time, peer review of journals was kept as short as possible (sometimes one to two days) in order to quickly publish the results, which we can only applaud. But many experts are drowning in the Covid-19 work and have too little time for a thorough analysis.

In the meantime, numerous articles have been published that have a major impact on policy (for example on reopening schools), for the treatment of patients (e.g. with hydroxychloroquine), for the diagnosis of covid-19 (e.g. about PCR tests) that would never have passed the peer review. There are scientific articles published in top journals that clearly were reviewed in a sloppy way by peers, perhaps by haste. We then have to scuffle with politicians, journalists and the public as we question publications in journals or by top researchers. Last Thursday, countless European colleagues participating in the Recover project hung on the phone for many hours with journalists to explain why, in their view, the conclusion of Drosten's article on the schools is unfounded. In recent weeks we have had to constantly explain why Didier Raoult's studies of treating covid-19 patients with hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin are scientifically substandard. Over the past few days, I've spent a lot of time refuting the claim that the PCR tests are unreliable. We published an article about this in the Journal of Medicine last week after I committed myself to thoroughly evaluate the Chinese studies on the sensitivity of PCR tests. It took me a long time, but it was necessary to draw a scientifically based conclusion. Constantly adjusting I ask the understanding of politicians, media and the population for the work of scientists. Knowledge about this new virus is evolving day by day. We may have to question what we say today. As a result, we have to make constant adjustments and experts are not always on the same page. But scientists should also exercise caution when publishing their findings. Scientists should not be tempted to certain barige conclusions from their studies to draw to influence policy. At our meeting of the Recover project on May 1, I suggested that we forward scientific articles to each other before publishing them. We must remain very critical of one another and dare to constantly question ourselves. A thorough analysis of the lessons we can learn from the pandemic is imperative. We also started this on 1 May within the Recover project.

In the meantime, scientists must state very clearly that their publication has not yet been subjected to a critical analysis by their peers, and politicians should have their policies guided by experts who may only base their advice on scientific studies that have undergone a thorough peer review.
 
A doctor in France is saying that tests are saying there was a case last December

https://www.bfmtv.com/sante/coronav...-19-en-france-des-le-27-decembre-1906757.html

Was the virus in France last year?
The number of new recorded deaths is the lowest since late March, when only deaths in hospitals were being recorded. The new figures include deaths in care homes and have been declining for several days.

Meanwhile, an intensive care chief in the Paris region has told local media that the virus was present in France on 27 December - a month before the first cases were confirmed.

Yves Cohen told broadcaster BFMTV that his team had revisited negative tests for flu and other coronaviruses on 24 patients who had been in hospital with respiratory symptoms in December and January.

"Of the 24 patients, we had one positive result for Covid-19 on 27 December when he was in hospital with us," he said, adding that the test had been repeated several times to confirm the result.

Dr Cohen said he had reported the case to the regional health authorities and called for other negative tests from the same period to be re-examined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52524001
 
Ed Yong has another great article covering a lot of issues on the virus:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/04/pandemic-confusing-uncertainty/610819/

With regard to scientific. publishing, he notes this sobering statement:

Julie Pfeiffer of UT Southwestern, who is an editor at the Journal of Virology, says that she and her colleagues have been flooded with submitted papers, most of which are so obviously poor that they haven’t even been sent out for review. “They shouldn’t be published anywhere,” she says, “and then they end up [on a preprint site].” Some come from nonscientists who have cobbled together a poor mathematical model; others come from actual virologists who have suddenly pivoted to studying coronaviruses and “are submitting work they never normally would in a rush to be first,” Pfeiffer says. “Some people are genuinely trying to help, but there’s also a huge amount of opportunism.”

Yong also presents an interesting table summarizing thirty antibody studies that have been carried out so far. The highest % of positives were in studies of health care workers and people in retirement homes, e.g., 30% in a Stockholm retirement home, 20% in Stockholm health care workers, 23% in Italian health care workers, and 17% and 10% in NY first responders. Iran reported 22% in a sample of the general public, which could provide support to other evidence that there has been massive under-reporting there. The highest of any study was > 60% in Bergamo, Italy, but many of the subjects had symptoms, and the others were thought to be contacts of symptomatics.

Screenings of general public of interest include 6% in Dade County, FL, and 5.5% in Barcelona.
 
An article by the research group of the German virologist Chris tian Drosten on the role of children in the spread of the coronavirus and the risk of a resurgence by the reopening of schools made me reflect on the role of scientists and the peer review process.

Based on his studies, Christian Drosten warned about an unlimited reopening of the schools, which caused a lot of controversy. Every Friday we have our meeting of the EU-funded Recover project, in which many European experts, including Drosten, participate. Last Friday, May 1, we had a very animated and engaging discussion. We were very critical of each other, and that's how it should be. We found this an interesting study (Drosten is a brilliant virologist), but felt that he translated his virological results too prematurely and not nuanced enough into policy consequences. We also came to the conclusion that this article had better passed a peer review first.

What I found especially weird about this: Drosten had before been very critical of Streecks work, because it had not been peer-reviewed properly before he showed the results to the public. And immediately huge parts of the media became very crititical of Streeck, too.
There's obviously a mixture of political and scientific competition at play that effects how Germany deals with the virus. Quite annoying, but not exactly surprising. It's just that the federal structure of Germany (which is usually a good thing) is enhancing this.
 
yeah, if this makes it into German media, it's likely to start a *** storm. Drosten is seen as the person forcing the restrictions in Germany, so if this study turns out to be wrong (well, just the assumption is probably enough) I imagine many will jump on the boat and try to use it to discredit all of his findings.

I mean, Goossens was very clear what he thinks about that study towards other Belgian media: "It's actually a bad study. [...} The study is virologically strong, but it is epidemiological to cry. [... It draws conclusions about the virus which are not correct."

 
I would add that there were quite a few eyebrows raised about the statistical analysis from the Santa Cruz antibody testing preprint studies as well. Ioaniddis from Stanford then went on cable news to tout his results, which coincidentally dovetailed completely with his prior theories about the virus being more widespread and less deadly.

Overall, I have less problems with pre-prints because they are getting good peer reviews by scientists at large, as witnessed by the chloroquine example. I posted a few of the critiques. And it speaks to open access demands of COVID-19 research. But the problem IMO is that the gatekeepers to the public are not well equipped to deal with a scientist who wants to shape policy. And peer review is no panacea either. The same problems can exist there. Wakefield published his vaccine autism case studies in a good journal. The paper was actually pretty tame, but he then went on media making claims well beyond what he published, advocating for what became the modern anti-vaccine movement. The paper was retracted eventually, but long after the damage was done.

ETA. And of course, Raoult got his chloroquine studies published too. Peer review can be as few as two other reviewers, possibly even suggested by the authors of the study.

ETA2. Good lord...why?

View: https://twitter.com/CNBCnow/status/1257302721201307648
 
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What are you concerned about, virus in the beer, or virus on the surface of the can? If the latter, just wash the can with soap or alcohol. If the former, you are being too paranoid. Beer is sterilized.

Virus on the surface of an empty beer can sitting in the sun almost certainly would not last long. If the can were filled with beer, it would last somewhat longer, because the beer would absorb some of the incoming heat. I'd think after all day in the sun, though, the beer would be pretty hot,--the can would probably explode--and the virus would probably be gone.
Now you just gave me something else to think about, I never thought about the virus being in the beer. But, I did mean on the surface of the can. I'm already doing what you suggest, I wash the cans with soap and water, but that's obviously just one more of many extra steps in life now. While I was wiping my groceries down last night before bringing them in the house I thought: "I wonder how much of this I could just leave in the sun to kill the virus...and how long would it take?"
 
I found out the cocktail of drugs used by HK to treat COVID19 patients - My understanding is they are used as soon as patients have any issues with breathing - The four drugs are Remdesvir,Kaletron,Interferon and Remdesvir - This is similar to what they did with SARS in 2003 - Four deaths only suggests it does the job, though some suffer side affects - A number of Asian countries use similar treatment regimes.
 
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Is that Interferon alpha (alfa) or beta?

I ask because there has been suggestions that COVID-19 represses interferon beta production, yielding more cytokines like IL-6 and it is the dysregulated cytokine response that contributes to the pathology in the lung.

I am unsure - Certain that Interferon was used on SARS patients - My understanding is these drugs have been also been used to treat HIV/Ebola/Hepatitis C.
 
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I found out the cocktail of drugs used by HK to treat COVID19 patients - My understanding is they are used as soon as patients have any issues with breathing - The four drugs are Remdesvir,Kaletron,Interferon and Remdesvir - This is similar to what they did with SARS in 2003 - Four deaths only suggests it does the job, though some suffer side affects - A number of Asian countries use similar treatment regimes.

That's only 3. However, that is good news that it appears to be working.