Cortisone use and Dr. Ferrari

[unsheath]

Allen Lim is not a hematologist.

 

[zoeart]

So, do you have any evidence that Ferrari's still working with JB or not?

IDK about that, but I like your logic.

If it was BBox's manager that had won 9 Grand Tours we would be talking about him ad nauseum now.

 

[Eva Maria]

You tend to paint with a broad brush. It seems as though just knowing and working with Landis would be enough to convict Lim in your mind. You seem very willing to do that with others. For someone who did not get along with Landis, Mr. Lim was very defensive of Landis saying (going from memory here) something about Landis's power file for that fateful day being nothing way out of the ordinary and he had several similar files for Landis during hard training days. Does not prove much either way and I don't know either of them and I suspect you don't either.

Hematologist, physiologist, veterinarian... all have been involved in cycling "programs". Just because Lim does not have his PhD in Hematology does not mean he's clueless. Now, I'm not saying Lim has done anything wrong. As far as I know, guilt by association is about as far as it goes. My point is that you are very willing to paint just about anyone with the same brush. You posted a photo earlier with Ferrari in it. I assume everyone in the photo is now on your radar as being suspicious because for you, that is evidence enough.

So, do you have any evidence that Ferrari's still working with JB or not?

Lim was not defensive of Landis. Beyond saying that the days power files were within his range he has said little. He has not been an outspoken defender of Landis.

Trying to say that Lim and Ferrari are even remotely similar is misguided at best. Lim did not help dope Moser to the hour record. He never organize the doping program for the dopingest team ever, Lim never tried to downplay the use of EPO, Never was convicted of running an illegal pharmacy, with the exception of landis has not had a bunch of riders under his guidance test positive.

There is plenty of evidence that JB and Armstrong never stopped working with Ferrari. I have shown you pictures and sited books that support this. Can you provide anything beyond a press release that proves they stopped?

Riders go to Ferrari for one reason, and that is not interval training.

 

[unsheath]

Isn't it to get advice on which orange juice they should have with breakfast??

 

[scribe]

Isn't it to get advice on which orange juice they should have with breakfast??

You mean how much OJ, right?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

A pretty large difference in attidues towards what constitutes good practice in these two articles on Dr. Lim & Dr. Ferrari.


Lim interview.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/paul_kimmage/article4322625.ece

Ferrari interview.
http://www.bicycling.com/article/0,6610,s1-3-12-13773-1-P,00.html

 

[patswana]

Chances are very good that few doctors understand the competitive physiology of competive cycling better than likes of Dr Ferrari. If he can practice medicine with cyclists within the boundaries of established rules of cycling, I don't see what is wrong with a continuing relationship.

While it is true that as a % of all doctors, the proportion that understand sports physiology is small, there are plenty around with an excellent knowledge of it. I have quite a few colleagues at my work who are doing research in this area. You may be surprised to learn that they universally disregard Dr Ferrari's understanding of physiology but are all well aware of how he achieves success. He's a doping doctor. Now maybe I am naive, but I can't think of any other reason why elite athletes would employ the services of a doping doctor.

 

[scribe]

Despite all the evidence amassed by the investigators, over more than five years and two separate inquiries, one big thing was missing: a positive drug test by one of Ferrari's athletes.

This is my problem with impuning Ferrari and anyone associated with him. The guy might be a cheat, but he must be a damn good one if governing bodies in cycling can't weed him out with controls.

 

[scribe]

A pretty large difference in attidues towards what constitutes good practice in these two articles on Dr. Lim & Dr. Ferrari.


Lim interview.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/paul_kimmage/article4322625.ece

Ferrari interview.
http://www.bicycling.com/article/0,6610,s1-3-12-13773-1-P,00.html

I have a problem getting through the writing style of each article. One seems to glorify, while the other seems to investigate with suspicion. Of course, Lin looks great in that light. Who is to say Ferrari hasn't been interested in precisely that sort of detail through the years beyond his early Frankenstein experiments? I ain't a doper shill, but there has to be some balance in approaches for me to formulate an opinion on the matter.

 

[Anonymous]

This is my problem with impuning Ferrari and anyone associated with him. The guy might be a cheat, but he must be a damn good one if governing bodies in cycling can't weed him out with controls.

Why do you think he gets paid so much? That is precisely why he is used. It isn't just that he knows how to dope you, he also knows how to bet the tests. You guys seem to think it is impossible for someone to figure things like that out. Ferrari is a genius, of that there is no doubt.

 

[scribe]

Why do you think he gets paid so much?

Uh. Because he charges a decent rate?

 

[TheArbiter]

Are you for real?

I can understand why your century riding friends do not use them but the Pro sport has been using them for decades

You give the game away when you say something like this. Pro cyclists have never used cortisoid steriods. If the case against Armstrong is so good then you shouldn't have to throw that non-issue into it.

 

[patswana]

This is my problem with impuning Ferrari and anyone associated with him. The guy might be a cheat, but he must be a damn good one if governing bodies in cycling can't weed him out with controls.

Have a bit of a think about all the dopers who have admitted it but never got caught. E.g. Marion Jones, Bjarne Riis. Or where others have admitted it on thier behalf e.g. Ullrich & T-Mobile. Or even Kohl who had 198 negative tests before his two positives yet was doping the whole time. It is only the ignorant, the badly advised or the unlucky who test positive.

 

[Eva Maria]

This is my problem with impuning Ferrari and anyone associated with him. The guy might be a cheat, but he must be a damn good one if governing bodies in cycling can't weed him out with controls.

Vino
Kash
Sinkewitz
Landis
Pantani

All Ferrari clients

 

[scribe]

Vino
Kash
Sinkewitz
Landis
Pantani

All Ferrari clients

So that article is incorrect? The quote is directly from the article.

 

[TheArbiter]

Riders go to Ferrari for one reason, and that is not interval training.

This seems like nonsense. You don't need a doctor to give you EPO with all the risks that entails for them and for you. You can get the stuff straight from Asian pharmacies. I'm sure there is enough expertise from the 1990s to know how to inject it.

You've got caught up in this sensationist rumour mill. You don't have a clue about the nature of Ferrari's relationship past or present. Try to take a step back.

 

[Eva Maria]

You give the game away when you say something like this. Pro cyclists have never used cortisoid steriods. If the case against Armstrong is so good then you shouldn't have to throw that non-issue into it.

You have no idea what you are talking about

Fignon
http://www.bicycling.com/article/0,6610,s1-3-9-19570-1,00.html
"Cortisone use was widespread in the 1980s, Fignon said. It was widely regarded as the drug of choice for cyclists before the advent of EPO in the early 1990s. "

 

[Eva Maria]

This seems like nonsense. You don't need a doctor to give you EPO with all the risks that entails for them and for you. You can get the stuff straight from Asian pharmacies. I'm sure there is enough expertise from the 1990s to know how to inject it.

You've got caught up in this sensationist rumour mill. You don't have a clue about the nature of Ferrari's relationship past or present. Try to take a step back.

Please give me a step by step instructions to self administer transfusions.

I thought you said you were in the UK, what is it 4:00 in the morning there?

 

[patswana]

You give the game away when you say something like this. Pro cyclists have never used cortisoid steriods. If the case against Armstrong is so good then you shouldn't have to throw that non-issue into it.

I know quite a few elite riders who take 50mg of prednisolone for ~3 days at the first hint of an injury. Is it performance enhancing like this? No, but it is illegal.

Corticosteroids, when used in conjunction with other agents can offer some minor performance enhancing effects.

Surely you have read about the riders rubbing sand on their nuts so that they get a rash and can then get a TUE for using certain creams that will then allow them to use systemic doses and not have to worry about the doping control.

 

[scribe]

Guys (and eva): this has been fun and enlightening, but doping has nothing to do with the point of this thread.

 

[Eva Maria]

So that article is incorrect? The quote is directly from the article.

The article is 4 years old. Checchini had a similar unblemished record until Hamilton, Ulrich, Basso, etc.

 

[Eva Maria]

It appears that some misinformed posters believe that Pro's have not used Cortisone in the past.

Of course Fignon recently said that he did. Greg Strock was doped by Chris Charmichael with it. A test for it was not developed until 1999, but the UCI did not make the availability of the test widely know, leading to Armstrong testing positive.

 

[Eva Maria]

Guys (and eva): this has been fun and enlightening, but doping has nothing to do with the point of this thread.

Exactly.

Continue the doping discussion here

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=68806#post68806

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I have a problem getting through the writing style of each article. One seems to glorify, while the other seems to investigate with suspicion. Of course, Lin looks great in that light. Who is to say Ferrari hasn't been interested in precisely that sort of detail through the years beyond his early Frankenstein experiments? I ain't a doper shill, but there has to be some balance in approaches for me to formulate an opinion on the matter.

Somehow I think Dr. Ferrari would decline an interview with Kimmage.

I know what you are saying about the different styles - unfortunately it is the only interview with Lim I could remember.
I chose to look more at the content of what each said as opposed to the opinions of the authors.

 

[TheArbiter]

You have no idea what you are talking about

Fignon
http://www.bicycling.com/article/0,6610,s1-3-9-19570-1,00.html
"Cortisone use was widespread in the 1980s, Fignon said. It was widely regarded as the drug of choice for cyclists before the advent of EPO in the early 1990s. "

I do know that cortisoid steriods can be counterproductive and only have slight beneficial effects if used in massive doses. They were abandoned decades ago. Nobody believes that Armstrong would use them in the 2000s. It's precisely what you need for saddle sores.

Come clean and admit it that its highly unlikely that he would use for for these effects. Trace amounts are completely useless.