Cortisone use and Dr. Ferrari

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Eva Maria

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May 24, 2009
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Scott SoCal said:
You see, THIS is where you and I go seperate ways.

I can make any accusation about anyone that I want to. For example, let's say I knew of someone who has lived and raced in Europe on professional level. Since the peleton is soooo dirty and has been for years then, using your theory of guilt by association, this person must have doped as well. I mean, how else could this person possibly know so much about the subject?

Now that I've made this accusation how would this person go ahead and prove they DIDN'T dope. For all I know, if this person were a smart doper, they probably worked with Ferrari. I'd like some proof this person was not working with him. Really, best of luck with that.

It appears that there is still a huge amount of suspicion in the peleton. I suppose it is well deserved. But if you think you have made your case when you ask someone to prove they didn't do something they have been accused of then you will lose your argument 100% of the time.

You are trying attribute words and opinions to me that I do not hold. I am an optimist about the state of doping in the sport. I know that there are many clean riders, they do exist. You will never see me write that they all dope.

Given that Armstrong and The Hog have tried to hide, then consistently lied about, their relationship with Ferrari believing that they are now suddenly telling the truth is myopic at best
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Scott SoCal said:
You see, THIS is where you and I go seperate ways.

I can make any accusation about anyone that I want to. For example, let's say I knew of someone who has lived and raced in Europe on professional level. Since the peleton is soooo dirty and has been for years then, using your theory of guilt by association, this person must have doped as well. I mean, how else could this person possibly know so much about the subject?

Now that I've made this accusation how would this person go ahead and prove they DIDN'T dope. For all I know, if this person were a smart doper, they probably worked with Ferrari. I'd like some proof this person was not working with him. Really, best of luck with that.

It appears that there is still a huge amount of suspicion in the peleton. I suppose it is well deserved. But if you think you have made your case when you ask someone to prove they didn't do something they have been accused of then you will lose your argument 100% of the time.
it is not guilt by association. The default status is "to dope". The exception, is to "be clean". Therefore I could ask for proof why they are exceptions and clean. Now, if you talk about the guilt-innocence binary, you are ascribing such morality.

I do not see it in those terms of morality, or guilt versus innocence. There is no harm in assessing their status enhancing performance. Sober, rational assessment.

No one here is sanctioning. No one here is stealing or denying endorsements or salary.
 

TheArbiter

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Aug 3, 2009
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We should all be able to agree that Armstrong and other cyclists did not visit Dr Ferrari for the dope, since they could quite easily get hold of EPO without his help. Dr Ferrari coined the Conconi Test which revolutionised endurance sports, he is a legendary sports scientists. That's why people wanted to work with him. Lets be honest about this.

Also Armstrong is very loyal to his friends and is not going to dump on someone because of unsubstantiated allegations. He would say that is your problem, not his. Ferrari is the best.
 

Eva Maria

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May 24, 2009
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TheArbiter said:
We should all be able to agree that Armstrong and other cyclists did not visit Dr Ferrari for the dope, since they could quite easily get hold of EPO without his help. Dr Ferrari coined the Conconi Test which revolutionised endurance sports, he is a legendary sports scientists. That's why people wanted to work with him. Lets be honest about this.

Also Armstrong is very loyal to his friends and is not going to dump on someone because of unsubstantiated allegations. He would say that is your problem, not his. Ferrari is the best.

I always thought you were trolling, now you have proved it.

"Dr. Ferrari coined the Conconi test"

That is a classic quote. I may have to use it as my signature.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Eva Maria said:
You are trying attribute words and opinions to me that I do not hold. I am an optimist about the state of doping in the sport. I know that there are many clean riders, they do exist. You will never see me write that they all dope.

Given that Armstrong and The Hog have tried to hide, then consistently lied about, their relationship with Ferrari believing that they are now suddenly telling the truth is myopic at best

Wow. We agree on something. It's a start...
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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TheArbiter said:
We should all be able to agree that Armstrong and other cyclists did not visit Dr Ferrari for the dope, since they could quite easily get hold of EPO without his help. Dr Ferrari coined the Conconi Test which revolutionised endurance sports, he is a legendary sports scientists. That's why people wanted to work with him. Lets be honest about this.

Also Armstrong is very loyal to his friends and is not going to dump on someone because of unsubstantiated allegations. He would say that is your problem, not his. Ferrari is the best.

So, you would like us to be honest here,- as long as we ignore his history of doping athletes?
 

TheArbiter

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Aug 3, 2009
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Eva Maria said:
There is nothing in that article that says Ferrari coined the Conconi test.

The test is named after the guy who created it, Dr. Francesco Conconi, Ferrari's college professor.

You know very well that he Ferrari perfected the test and used it to transform the training for endurance sports. This is what changed the path of Armstrong's training. Ferrari is a legend. No wonder Armstrong didn't throw him under tha bus.

Good old Ferrari. I wish I could work with him.
 
Jun 30, 2009
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TheArbiter said:
You know very well that he Ferrari perfected the test and used it to transform the training for endurance sports. This is what changed the path of Armstrong's training. Ferrari is a legend. No wonder Armstrong didn't throw him under tha bus.

Good old Ferrari. I wish I could work with him.

Your trolling is really a bit too obvious.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
TheArbiter said:
We should all be able to agree that Armstrong and other cyclists did not visit Dr Ferrari for the dope, since they could quite easily get hold of EPO without his help. Dr Ferrari coined the Conconi Test which revolutionised endurance sports, he is a legendary sports scientists. That's why people wanted to work with him. Lets be honest about this.

Also Armstrong is very loyal to his friends and is not going to dump on someone because of unsubstantiated allegations. He would say that is your problem, not his. Ferrari is the best.

We should also agree that Armstrong is a narcissist alien who's blood is capable of self protection. Dr Ferrari is the sleazeball Joseph Mengele type who would shoot your mother up with blended baby to see if it would help cyclists climb faster. He also perfected the Lance Armstrong doping regimen that propelled a once talented classics rider into something he could not have been without that help.

Lance is only loyal to searching for women who remind him of his mother so that he can try to crawl back into their vaginas so that he can feel safe and warm. He has been trying to get back in that thing since he left. Never have I seen a more clear case of Oedipus Complex in my entire life. Add to that his Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and what you have is someone just short of Seriel Killer. I truly do feel sorry for his children for a couple of reasons, one because he will pass some of his psychological problems on to them , and two because they have to grow up with the worst kind of dad imaginable. They will soon find out who is actually #1 in his world, and it isn't them. He truly is pond scum.
 

TheArbiter

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Aug 3, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
Oh yea, that is perfectly clear. You can't fake that kind of mental illness.

No the guy is incredible. He was contacted by Bruyneel during the middle of a race to ask if Pantani's attack could last. He crunched some numbers and said "let him hang". And you know what? He DID blow up.

The guy is a genius. We all wish he was on our team.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Thoughtforfood said:
We should also agree that Armstrong is a narcissist alien who's blood is capable of self protection. Dr Ferrari is the sleazeball Joseph Mengele type who would shoot your mother up with blended baby to see if it would help cyclists climb faster. He also perfected the Lance Armstrong doping regimen that propelled a once talented classics rider into something he could not have been without that help.

Lance is only loyal to searching for women who remind him of his mother so that he can try to crawl back into their vaginas so that he can feel safe and warm. He has been trying to get back in that thing since he left. Never have I seen a more clear case of Oedipus Complex in my entire life. Add to that his Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and what you have is someone just short of Seriel Killer. I truly do feel sorry for his children for a couple of reasons, one because he will pass some of his psychological problems on to them , and two because they have to grow up with the worst kind of dad imaginable. They will soon find out who is actually #1 in his world, and it isn't them. He truly is pond scum.

I'm starting to get the feeling you don't care much for Armstrong.
 

Eva Maria

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May 24, 2009
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TheArbiter said:
No the guy is incredible. He was contacted by Bruyneel during the middle of a race to ask if Pantani's attack could last. He crunched some numbers and said "let him hang". And you know what? He DID blow up.

The guy is a genius. We all wish he was on our team.

vomit-smiley-015.gif
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
TheArbiter said:
No the guy is incredible. He was contacted by Bruyneel during the middle of a race to ask if Pantani's attack could last. He crunched some numbers and said "let him hang". And you know what? He DID blow up.

The guy is a genius. We all wish he was on our team.

No, I was talking about YOUR mental illness.

Ferrari is a genius alright, and so was Mengele. Problem is that his genius is in doping athletes and beating the tests for those substances. Anyone with any cycling knowledge knows that. Anyone can also Google, which is what you are obviously good at. Hey, everyone has a talent!
 

TheArbiter

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Aug 3, 2009
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How to use your topical corticosteroid cream or ointment
Written by Helen Marshall, pharmacist

Topical corticosteroid creams and ointments are applied to the skin to reduce inflammation in conditions such as eczema, dermatitis and psoriasis. They include medicines such as hydrocortisone, betametasone and clobetasol.

Ointments are more greasy than creams. They are preferable if your skin is dry, whereas moist or weepy skin is best treated with a cream. Using a cream or ointment allows the medicine to be applied directly to the inflamed area of skin.

The most important thing to remember with topical corticosteroid creams and ointments is to apply them very thinly. This minimises the amount absorbed through the skin into the body.

How to use your topical corticosteroid cream or ointment
1.The first time you take the cap off the cream or ointment you may find the end of the tube is sealed. You can pierce this seal by inverting the cap of the tube and pushing it into the end of the tube.
2.Wash the affected area(s) of skin well and rinse away all traces of cleanser.
3.Pat the skin dry rather than rubbing it.
4.Apply the cream or ointment thinly and evenly to the affected area(s).
5.Gently massage the cream or ointment into the skin until it has all disappeared.
6.Replace the cap on the tube.
7.Wash your hands after applying the cream or ointment, unless the hands are the affected area.
8.Topical corticosteroids should not be applied more than twice a day and once a day may often be sufficient. Follow the instructions your doctor or pharmacist gives you.
9.If you have other creams, ointments or lotions to use on the same area of skin you should try and leave about half an hour between applying each one so that they don't mix on the skin.
How much should you use?
You can measure the amount required to "apply thinly" in terms of the length of cream or ointment squeezed out of the tube. This is measured in fingertip units. One fingertip unit is the distance from the tip of an adult index finger to the first crease of that finger.

The table below gives you a rough guide of how much cream or ointment to use for an adult. You should use less than this for smaller adults and children.

Affected body area Quantity of cream or ointment to use for adults
Both sides of one hand One fingertip unit
One foot Two fingertip units
One arm Three fingertip units
One leg Six fingertip units
Chest and abdomen Seven fingertip units
Back and buttocks Seven fingertip units

Don't worry if you have to use more or less than this - it is a rough guide based on average adult body size.

Other useful advice
Only use topical corticosteroids on the affected areas of skin. Never use them as moisturisers.
Do not use topical corticosteroids under nappies or dressings, unless your doctor tells you to. (Nappies and dressings make it easier for the medicine to pass through the skin and so could increase the risk of unwanted effects.)
Do not use topical corticosteroids on the face unless advised to do so by your doctor. If topical corticosteroids are to be used on the face, they should be used for no more than five to seven days. Ensure the product does not get in your eyes. Continued use of topical corticosteroid preparations may lead to a lightening of the skin.
There will be more medicine absorbed from raw skin, thin skin, the face and genitals, and areas of skin that rub together, such as beneath the breasts or between the buttocks, so take extra care to apply thinly if applying creams or ointments to these areas.
Over-use of any steroid cream or ointment, especially for long periods on large areas of skin, can result in too much medicine being absorbed into the body. This may lead to thinning or weakening of the skin or other side effects. Consult your doctor if you experience skin irritation or any other unusual effects.
Certain topical corticosteroid preparations can stain both the skin and clothes. To prevent the latter, a clean cloth or cotton bandage can be placed over the affected area. However, don't cover the area with airtight dressings unless directed by your doctor, as these can increase the absorption of the steroid into the body.
Creams and ointments are designed only for application to the skin. If they are accidentally taken by mouth, tell your doctor at once.
If you get the cream or ointment in your eye, rinse it out immediately with warm water and consult your doctor if there is any on-going irritation.
Always follow the advice on the printed label of the tube/box and/or as directed by your doctor or pharmacist.
If you forget to apply your cream or ointment, apply the correct dose when you remember, and then carry on as before.
Do not use your cream or ointment after the expiry date on the tube because it may be contaminated with germs.
Don't give your medicines to anyone else to use, even if they have the same symptoms as you. They may be harmful to other people.
Always keep medicines out of the reach of children.
Last updated 22.01.2009

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/health_advice/facts/corticosteroidcream.htm
 
Jul 9, 2009
7,859
1,271
20,680
TheArbiter said:
How to use your topical corticosteroid cream or ointment
Written by Helen Marshall, pharmacist

Topical corticosteroid creams and ointments are applied to the skin to reduce inflammation in conditions such as eczema, dermatitis and psoriasis. They include medicines such as hydrocortisone, betametasone and clobetasol.

Ointments are more greasy than creams. They are preferable if your skin is dry, whereas moist or weepy skin is best treated with a cream. Using a cream or ointment allows the medicine to be applied directly to the inflamed area of skin.

The most important thing to remember with topical corticosteroid creams and ointments is to apply them very thinly. This minimises the amount absorbed through the skin into the body.

How to use your topical corticosteroid cream or ointment
1.The first time you take the cap off the cream or ointment you may find the end of the tube is sealed. You can pierce this seal by inverting the cap of the tube and pushing it into the end of the tube.
2.Wash the affected area(s) of skin well and rinse away all traces of cleanser.
3.Pat the skin dry rather than rubbing it.
4.Apply the cream or ointment thinly and evenly to the affected area(s).
5.Gently massage the cream or ointment into the skin until it has all disappeared.
6.Replace the cap on the tube.
7.Wash your hands after applying the cream or ointment, unless the hands are the affected area.
8.Topical corticosteroids should not be applied more than twice a day and once a day may often be sufficient. Follow the instructions your doctor or pharmacist gives you.
9.If you have other creams, ointments or lotions to use on the same area of skin you should try and leave about half an hour between applying each one so that they don't mix on the skin.
How much should you use?
You can measure the amount required to "apply thinly" in terms of the length of cream or ointment squeezed out of the tube. This is measured in fingertip units. One fingertip unit is the distance from the tip of an adult index finger to the first crease of that finger.

The table below gives you a rough guide of how much cream or ointment to use for an adult. You should use less than this for smaller adults and children.

Affected body area Quantity of cream or ointment to use for adults
Both sides of one hand One fingertip unit
One foot Two fingertip units
One arm Three fingertip units
One leg Six fingertip units
Chest and abdomen Seven fingertip units
Back and buttocks Seven fingertip units

Don't worry if you have to use more or less than this - it is a rough guide based on average adult body size.

Other useful advice
Only use topical corticosteroids on the affected areas of skin. Never use them as moisturisers.
Do not use topical corticosteroids under nappies or dressings, unless your doctor tells you to. (Nappies and dressings make it easier for the medicine to pass through the skin and so could increase the risk of unwanted effects.)
Do not use topical corticosteroids on the face unless advised to do so by your doctor. If topical corticosteroids are to be used on the face, they should be used for no more than five to seven days. Ensure the product does not get in your eyes. Continued use of topical corticosteroid preparations may lead to a lightening of the skin.
There will be more medicine absorbed from raw skin, thin skin, the face and genitals, and areas of skin that rub together, such as beneath the breasts or between the buttocks, so take extra care to apply thinly if applying creams or ointments to these areas.
Over-use of any steroid cream or ointment, especially for long periods on large areas of skin, can result in too much medicine being absorbed into the body. This may lead to thinning or weakening of the skin or other side effects. Consult your doctor if you experience skin irritation or any other unusual effects.
Certain topical corticosteroid preparations can stain both the skin and clothes. To prevent the latter, a clean cloth or cotton bandage can be placed over the affected area. However, don't cover the area with airtight dressings unless directed by your doctor, as these can increase the absorption of the steroid into the body.
Creams and ointments are designed only for application to the skin. If they are accidentally taken by mouth, tell your doctor at once.
If you get the cream or ointment in your eye, rinse it out immediately with warm water and consult your doctor if there is any on-going irritation.
Always follow the advice on the printed label of the tube/box and/or as directed by your doctor or pharmacist.
If you forget to apply your cream or ointment, apply the correct dose when you remember, and then carry on as before.
Do not use your cream or ointment after the expiry date on the tube because it may be contaminated with germs.
Don't give your medicines to anyone else to use, even if they have the same symptoms as you. They may be harmful to other people.
Always keep medicines out of the reach of children.
Last updated 22.01.2009

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/health_advice/facts/corticosteroidcream.htm

So let me get this right. Are you trying to say that because corticosteroids in cream form only affect skin problems, that somehow means that the oral or injectable forms cannot possibly be misused to improve performace?
Much in the same way one could say that EPO is used to fight extreme anemia and could not possibly benefit already healthy athletes?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Hugh Januss said:
So let me get this right. Are you trying to say that because corticosteroids in cream form only affect skin problems, that somehow means that the oral or injectable forms cannot possibly be misused to improve performace?
Much in the same way one could say that EPO is used to fight extreme anemia and could not possibly benefit already healthy athletes?

No, Arbiter is saying that he reads that and jerks around his cyack'nballs while he imagines Armstrong applying the cream to his taint.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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TheArbiter said:
No the guy is incredible. He was contacted by Bruyneel during the middle of a race to ask if Pantani's attack could last. He crunched some numbers and said "let him hang". And you know what? He DID blow up.

The guy is a genius. We all wish he was on our team.

That is incredible. Especially since, at the time, Ferrari was walking in the woods. Not even watching the race. Amazing how Bruyneel had, I guess already calculated Pantani's VAM based on, I dunno, the perceived speed of the the motorbikes?
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
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I seems Lance Armstrong believes corticoids are performance enhancing;

A quote from [url="http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1999/jul99/jul20.shtml']20th July 1999[/url] Two days before he was named by Le Monde as having used corticoids.

"It is difficult to have a point of view as corticoids can be performance-enhancing or be used as cures, in case of knee problems for instance."