Cortisone use and Dr. Ferrari

[Franklin]

but if you make a claim it would be better to have some backup to it - as others may perceive it as mere trolling.

Note how he only answers certain posts as he knows he is completely blown out of the water by facts. His completely crazy statement about cortisone use just started it.

It's a fact cyclists did use cortisones (not just tests, but also public statements from people like Fignon). When he just refuses being called on that it should stop here and now. After that his claim that no cyclist associated with Ferrari was caught was easily refuted. Now he starts moving goal posts... (because yes, his central argument did become that Ferrari was just a coach).

It's fine to have a different opinion, but when people start to deny open facts like those he stops being a serious discussion partner.

 

[Eva Maria]

Note how he only answers certain posts as he knows he is completely blown out of the water by facts. His completely crazy statement about cortisone use just started it.

It's a fact cyclists did use cortisones (not just tests, but also public statements from people like Fignon). When he just refuses being called on that it should stop here and now. After that his claim that no cyclist associated with Ferrari was caught was easily refuted. Now he starts moving goal posts... (because yes, his central argument did become that Ferrari was just a coach).

It's fine to have a different opinion, but when people start to deny open facts like those he stops being a serious discussion partner.

True, 100% troll. He says he lives in the UK, but most of his posts come at 3:00 in the morning there.

He will change his screen name, again, and come back to troll some more.

 

[TheArbiter]

Note how he only answers certain posts as he knows he is completely blown out of the water by facts. His completely crazy statement about cortisone use just started it.

What posts are you talking about? I was very patient with Dr. Maserati and answered his request. He was embarrassed by this so searched his original post for some semantic points he could come back with, then fired off another challenge for me. The usual trolling forum stuff. That's up to him.

If you read the thread I already admitted to screwing up slightly on my original remarks about cortisone. I had read that certain forms of it have never been used in cycling, not that it has never been used. But I now find out that it's legal in many sports and is a great way to treat injuries and clear up skin problems. As I said, I will be getting some for my saddle sore problems. It's been an eye opener.

After that his claim that no cyclist associated with Ferrari was caught was easily refuted.

I never claimed this. I quoted from an interview.

Now he starts moving goal posts... (because yes, his central argument did become that Ferrari was just a coach)

Geez. Now you're quoting Dr. Maserati's question, not my statement. I have never said he was just a great coach.

It's fine to have a different opinion, but when people start to deny open facts like those he stops being a serious discussion partner.

You should try to read a little better so you don't embarrass yourself like this again. I can't take you seriously otherwise.

 

[TheArbiter]

True, 100% troll. He says he lives in the UK, but most of his posts come at 3:00 in the morning there.

He will change his screen name, again, and come back to troll some more.

Pretending that I've changed my screen name again, eh?

Are you even a woman, Eva Maria?

 

[Digger]

so you don't embarrass yourself like this again. I can't take you seriously otherwise.

Brillliant
The irony...

 

[TheArbiter]

Brillliant
The irony...

No, the irony bit was when he said it to me, after getting all his points wrong. Can you believe that? If you're gonna do one of those pompous 'this guy doesn't know what he's talking about' posts, at least get your facts straight.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No, the irony bit was when he said it to me, after getting all his points wrong. Can you believe that? If you're gonna do one of those pompous 'this guy doesn't know what he's talking about' posts, at least get your facts straight.

You wrote:
Don't be silly. Sports scientists involved in cycling will tell you, even if they disapprove of the rumours about him, that nevertheless Ferrari's tests and his number crunching transformed the sport. Why do you think so many people wanted to work with him?

My Question
Can you name any of those Sports Scientists?

This was your reply, where you failed to answer the question.
"This is plain wrong. He is still hugely respected for his coaching skills and sport science even by people who suspect his moral boundaries."

My reply:
Its a simple question really - name any of the sports scientists that say he is just a great coach?

I was asking a simple question as it would have backed up your claim of "sports scientists", which I believe to be false.

You quoted Sqinzi - from an article that I linked - yet left out the part of him talking about Dr. Ferrari's ethic's.

I never claimed you were wrong - just that I had not heard what you claimed. Nor indeed am I embarrased - I am just patiently waiting to receive an answer to the question that I asked.

 

[Eva Maria]

 

[TheArbiter]

Fristly, Dr, Maserati, I was refering to Franklin in my last post. No need to panic.

But you're being completely disingenious again. I answered your question. You asked for a name and I gave it to you in a straight forward and honest way. I even stated in my original post that even sports scientists and coaches who question his moral boundaries appreciate his talents, so I was completely open. You're just being silly with this quibbling nonsense stuff. It's you that is beginning to look like you're trolling.

 

[TheArbiter]

Have you worked out if you're a woman or a man yet, Eva darling?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Fristly, Dr, Maserati, I was refering to Franklin in my last post. No need to panic.

But you're being completely disingenious again. I answered your question. You asked for a name and I gave it to you in a straight forward and honest way. I even stated in my original post that even sports scientists and coaches who question his moral boundaries appreciate his talents, so I was completely open. You're just being silly with this quibbling nonsense stuff. It's you that is beginning to look like you're trolling.

Not at all - I am merely looking for facts to back up your claim.

I didn't ask for a name - I asked for names - as you mentioned "Sport Scientist's" (ie plural) - this could lead the casual reader to assume that Dr. Ferrari has a reputation as a good coach and that it is this reason that riders avail of his services - not his doping practices.

I have even been quite fair with you on the one quote you supplied.

As much as I admire Dr. Squinzi he is an industrial chemist, not a Sports Scientist.
You may think this is semantics or trolling - but throughout our exchange I have merely requested some facts, which you have yet to deliver.

 

[TheArbiter]

I didn't ask for a name - I asked for names - as you mentioned "Sport Scientist's" (ie plural) - this could lead the casual reader to assume that Dr. Ferrari has a reputation as a good coach and that it is this reason that riders avail of his services - not his doping practices...You may think this is semantics or trolling - but throughout our exchange I have merely requested some facts, which you have yet to deliver.

No, not semantics at all. I have given you facts.

Believe what you want to believe. If you do not want to believe Dr. Ferrari was respected throughout the sport for his tests and number crushing, and his motivation for training by setting clear goals, then don't believe that. He's just the crazy doping doctor....you obviously desperately want to maintain this belief, so keep it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No, not semantics at all. I have given you facts.

Believe what you want to believe. If you do not want to believe Dr. Ferrari was respected throughout the sport for his tests and number crushing, and his motivation for training by setting clear goals, then don't believe that. He's just the crazy doping doctor....you obviously desperately want to maintain this belief, so keep it.

Thank you.
Yes, I will believe what I want to believe - as I make my opinion's on facts.

I can even change my opinion if new facts arise that question my opinion's - so I was allowing you the oppurtunity to help broaden my knowledge.

However as you don't appear to have an answer - my opinion that Dr. Ferrari is the cyclists No.1 choice as a "coach" is not based on his coaching skill's but rather as the leading doping Doctor within the sport.

 

[TheArbiter]

Thank you.
Yes, I will believe what I want to believe - as I make my opinion's on facts.

I can even change my opinion if new facts arise that question my opinion's - so I was allowing you the oppurtunity to help broaden my knowledge.

However as you don't appear to have an answer - my opinion that Dr. Ferrari is the cyclists No.1 choice as a "coach" is not based on his coaching skill's but rather as the leading doping Doctor within the sport.

You have no intention of arguing in good faith. The interview I provided clearly gives a more rounded view, where it is acknowledged by former pros and former coach that he is one of the best coaches in cycling. It also shows how riders doped before they saw hi, and you will also have seen how he number crunching famously predicted Pantani would crack so they didn't have to follow him. You CANNOT accept that because you fear it might dent your argument against Armstrong. Well, that's fine, but it doesn't get us anywhere.

 

[scribe]

Thank you.
Yes, I will believe what I want to believe - as I make my opinion's on facts.

I can even change my opinion if new facts arise that question my opinion's - so I was allowing you the oppurtunity to help broaden my knowledge.

However as you don't appear to have an answer - my opinion that Dr. Ferrari is the cyclists No.1 choice as a "coach" is not based on his coaching skill's but rather as the leading doping Doctor within the sport.

If, as some believe, an enormous amount of the sport is doping, I can hardly believe they are getting it all from Ferrari. There have to be lots of docs that cyclists can safely go to. It would be stupid for a cyclist to go to Ferrari to dope, even within the last 10 years, given the intense surveillance the Italian police have imposed on the guy's movements.

 

[blackcat]

If, as some believe, an enormous amount of the sport is doping, I can hardly believe they are getting it all from Ferrari. There have to be lots of docs that cyclists can safely go to. It would be stupid for a cyclist to go to Ferrari to dope, even within the last 10 years, given the intense surveillance the Italian police have imposed on the guy's movements.

no no no, Italy is not a police state. I very much doubt they have his phone tapped. Berlusconi and Sarkastic still like having their photo taken with Armstrong, which is more instructive, on the political force behind such a push to take on/down Ferrari as de facto for Armstrong. It just does not exist.

 

[scribe]

no no no, Italy is not a police state. I very much doubt they have his phone tapped. Berlusconi and Sarkastic still like having their photo taken with Armstrong, which is more instructive, on the political force behind such a push to take on/down Ferrari as de facto for Armstrong. It just does not exist.

I could see Berlusconi inviting Armstrong to one of his parties.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You have no intention of arguing in good faith. The interview I provided clearly gives a more rounded view, where it is acknowledged by former pros and former coach that he is one of the best coaches in cycling. It also shows how riders doped before they saw hi, and you will also have seen how he number crunching famously predicted Pantani would crack so they didn't have to follow him. You CANNOT accept that because you fear it might dent your argument against Armstrong. Well, that's fine, but it doesn't get us anywhere.

Of course what would get "us" anywhere is if you actually had a link to back up your claim about the "Sports Scientist's".

Lance claims Ferrari is an excellent coach - all the riders that worked with him do, of course they are not going to admit the real reason behind their success.

On a final point -you did not provide the interview - you copied the interview that I provided which does not back up your claims.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If, as some believe, an enormous amount of the sport is doping, I can hardly believe they are getting it all from Ferrari. There have to be lots of docs that cyclists can safely go to. It would be stupid for a cyclist to go to Ferrari to dope, even within the last 10 years, given the intense surveillance the Italian police have imposed on the guy's movements.

I never claimed they are getting it all from Ferrari. In fact we know the opposite is true. Fuentes had 50+ riders, Kohl used his manager and the Vienna clinic.

The point about Ferrari isn''t that he has all the clients - just an exclusive few who pay top dollar for his services.

I also would doubt Dr. Ferrari has anything to do with the dope - I would assume he justs provides the data and timetable of what product's to use and when.

 

[scribe]

I never claimed they are getting it all from Ferrari. In fact we know the opposite is true. Fuentes had 50+ riders, Kohl used his manager and the Vienna clinic.

The point about Ferrari isn''t that he has all the clients - just an exclusive few who pay top dollar for his services.

I also would doubt Dr. Ferrari has anything to do with the dope - I would assume he justs provides the data and timetable of what product's to use and when.

I could see him being a guru on the administration of the dope. Seems to me there would still be some vital information on record, to some degree, that would expose the rider to investigation under highly sensitive circumstances. Not saying one way or the other regarding Ferrari, just trying to apply objective common sense when measuring my suspicion.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I could see him being a guru on the administration of the dope. Seems to me there would still be some vital information on record, to some degree, that would expose the rider to investigation under highly sensitive circumstances. Not saying one way or the other regarding Ferrari, just trying to apply objective common sense when measuring my suspicion.

No- you raise a fair point.

Even before the Carabinieri or Guardia Civil got involved the "coaches' had been using aliases and codewords.

Even in the early 90's Conconi gave all the riders on Carrera aliases for his data collection.

Fuentes had nicknames for his riders, Musseuw used "wasps" in his text messages about Aranesp.

When the Ferrari case went to trial Simeoni had diaries with asterisk marked on it for when he was due to take his PED's that was back in 96.

I would assume that there is a far more sophisticated system in use now to "coach" their athlete's.

 

[scribe]

No- you raise a fair point.

Even before the Carabinieri or Guardia Civil got involved the "coaches' had been using aliases and codewords.

Even in the early 90's Conconi gave all the riders on Carrera aliases for his data collection.

Fuentes had nicknames for his riders, Musseuw used "wasps" in his text messages about Aranesp.

When the Ferrari case went to trial Simeoni had diaries with asterisk marked on it for when he was due to take his PED's that was back in 96.

I would assume that there is a far more sophisticated system in use now to "coach" their athlete's.

There are more than one way to skin a cat other than paper trail. You have to have a link to actual materials, wire taps, witnesses, etc. There just isn't enough of this stuff rising to the surface to make me feel as if this guy is creating artificial animals out of the top cyclists TODAY, as I am convinced he was heavily involved in it before cycling moved to close it down. The poster above assured me the Italians would rather protect Ferrari, I am not so sure of that claim.

 

[Digger]

There are more than one way to skin a cat other than paper trail. You have to have a link to actual materials, wire taps, witnesses, etc. There just isn't enough of this stuff rising to the surface to make me feel as if this guy is creating artificial animals out of the top cyclists TODAY, as I am convinced he was heavily involved in it before cycling moved to close it down. The poster above assured me the Italians would rather protect Ferrari, I am not so sure of that claim.

Do you believe he is not doping his clients?

 

[blackcat]

There are more than one way to skin a cat other than paper trail. You have to have a link to actual materials, wire taps, witnesses, etc. There just isn't enough of this stuff rising to the surface to make me feel as if this guy is creating artificial animals out of the top cyclists TODAY, as I am convinced he was heavily involved in it before cycling moved to close it down. The poster above assured me the Italians would rather protect Ferrari, I am not so sure of that claim.

Ferrari has degrees of separation. He only provides the program. You gotta source the dope and a dirty doc if you are gonna get one to administer.

Coupla degrees o'separation now. plausible deniability

 

[Dr. Maserati]

There are more than one way to skin a cat other than paper trail. You have to have a link to actual materials, wire taps, witnesses, etc. There just isn't enough of this stuff rising to the surface to make me feel as if this guy is creating artificial animals out of the top cyclists TODAY, as I am convinced he was heavily involved in it before cycling moved to close it down. The poster above assured me the Italians would rather protect Ferrari, I am not so sure of that claim.

I agree with most of what you say. I don't believe there is a high level conspiracy to protect him - in fact it I would almost argue the opposite.

I think they would like to nail him for beating the rap before on a technicality.
I think he has gone more 'underground' - we know that LA used to go to Italy but they changed that arrangement when they found that the Carabinieri were monitoring their movements- after that Ferrari would visit Lance in other countries.