Could Marianne Vos ride for a men ProTour team one day?

[theyoungest]

Marianne Vos is obviously an amazing natural athlete and potentially having problems staying motivated would not be hard to understand. But it would be nice if the women's calendar didn't make it so Vos-conducive. The Giro is he hardest race, and although the race she won last year wasn't easy, I'd really like to see her against Abbott, Pooley etc. on a course like one of the old Giri or Grandes Boucles. If she were still dominating in races like that then you couldn't make any argument at all, but it's frustrating that we don't know how good any of these riders are in proper stage races with proper mountains (Giro 2010 was - or should have been - the start of something better, but after last year's reduction in difficulty it's not looking optimistic for the future, especially when the Giro organisers were told not to go up the proper side of the Mortirolo last year because it would be "too hard for the women").

It's not the Giro being Vos-conducive, it's Vos making herself Giro-conducive. Her climbing has improved dramatically (proper climbing I mean) and so did her time trialing. The 2010 Vos couldn't have won the 2011 Giro.

 

[DenisMenchov]

And if Magdalena Neuner can get unmotivated at having achieved everything possible at 24, then it can only be more of a temptation to give up for Vos considering that she's unlikely as a female cyclist to be giving up the same kind of sponsorship as a female biathlete (and a photogenic and German one at that) either.

Yes, but Neuner also knows that she wouldn't be able to get in to a pursuit in mens biathlon, she knows her place, so should Vos.

 

[jens_attacks]

Adrie van Diemen, trainer from Garmin and who does the same tests with all Garmin riders every year, explains that if Marianne Vos tests have been done correctly, that she could belong to the best climbers in the peloton of the men.
http://nos.nl/video/329675-vos-wil-graag-tegen-mannen-rijden.html

=))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

i already can see the vuelta 2013....froome goes goes..cobo dropped incredible...but who comes from behind and passes them like a train??oh it's vos!marianne vos!

sometimes these forums are precious

 

[rgmerk]

As long as people don't get stupidly unrealistic about it, I don't see what harm it can do. At best, she is motivated, she can hack it to some extent and goes back time and time again improving each time. And the media pay attention to some very small races as a result and give the sponsors of those races coverage they never normally would get. At worst, she isn't very good and she goes back to racing against the other women.

Another factor to take into account is the effect that it might have on her performance in her day job.

As a really bad amateur racer, a few weeks hanging on for grim death in a bunch of stronger cyclists improves my fitness no end.

I realize a pro like Vos is infinitely more disciplined and has much more intensive coaching than I do, but wouldn't racing with stronger men likely improve her cycling even further?

Not that she needs it to beat up on the women's peloton at the moment

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yes, but Neuner also knows that she wouldn't be able to get in to a pursuit in mens biathlon, she knows her place, so should Vos.

Again though, which men are we talking about? Everybody knows Neuner would get stuffed by Bø, Fourcade, Svendsen and the rest on the skis. But against amateurs, third tier guys who may occasionally get into the IBU Cup and who are predominantly good shooters, she may be able to do OK. Darya Domracheva was put against the boys when she was a child because she was regularly pasting all the girls not just in her age category but in all age categories.

As far as I can see from the article, Jeroen Blijlevens at no point suggests putting Marianne in PRO men's races, nor does anybody suggest that she'd be competitive beyond the possibility of just being able to stay in the péloton. That is an assumption made in the article and in the thread title. Why not put her against the amateur men in some of the races Rabo Continental do? There's no way Marianne Vos competes at Vattenfall, the men's Plouay, Ronde or Flèche. But there's little harm to be done in giving her a go with no expectations at the Dorpenomloop Rupchen, GP des Marbriers, Ster van Zwolle or GP Nogent-sur-Oise, surely?

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

It's just all so pointless.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It's not the Giro being Vos-conducive, it's Vos making herself Giro-conducive. Her climbing has improved dramatically (proper climbing I mean) and so did her time trialing. The 2010 Vos couldn't have won the 2011 Giro.

Combination of both. It's arguable if the 2011 Vos could have won the 2010 Giro. Abbott, Pooley and Stelvio is a pretty potent climbing combination to overcome.

Some of the problems that have faced women's cycling have included (elsewhere than the Giro) the lack of money often meaning parcours aren't taking on too much of the kind of terrain that throws things back in the favour of the likes of Pooley, Abbott and Häusler; even the Emakumeen Bira has struggled to make itself a truly mountain-centric race.

 

[DenisMenchov]

Again though, which men are we talking about? Everybody knows Neuner would get stuffed by Bø, Fourcade, Svendsen and the rest on the skis. But against amateurs, third tier guys who may occasionally get into the IBU Cup and who are predominantly good shooters, she may be able to do OK. Darya Domracheva was put against the boys when she was a child because she was regularly pasting all the girls not just in her age category but in all age categories.

I was calculating some results last year. And come to conclusion that she would hardly get in to a pursuit with same skiing speed and clean shooting. Guys that are between 60-80 have similar average speed as she does (but over longer distance), but shoot poorly.

In recent mass start in Oberhof. Neuner had 5.2 m/s average speed and was 1st, while Simon Eder who was last had 5.87 m/s.

 

[Skip Madness]

It's not the Giro being Vos-conducive, it's Vos making herself Giro-conducive. Her climbing has improved dramatically (proper climbing I mean) and so did her time trialing. The 2010 Vos couldn't have won the 2011 Giro.

Yeah I'm not saying Vos didn't improve dramatically, but in 2011 Vos was Giro-conducive to a Giro that was (somewhat) Vos-conducive. Not saying it was a piece of cake or anything, but it wasn't as hard as the previous year, and 2010 still wasn't as hard as the Giro should be.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I was calculating some results last year. And come to conclusion that she would hardly get in to a pursuit with same skiing speed and clean shooting. Guys that are between 60-80 have similar average speed as she does (but over longer distance), but shoot poorly.

In recent mass start in Oberhof. Neuner had 5.2 m/s average speed and was 1st, while Simon Eder who was last had 5.87 m/s.

But then, again, I'm not comparing her to the World Cup guys, just as even the slower domestiques in the ProTour péloton will outpace Vos. Compare her to the slower skiers among the occasional entries in the IBU-Cup. That's more the level we should be talking about being equivalent. Vos should be looking at doing some smaller .2 races with the leading amateurs and some of the Continental Pro teams. Not racing at Eneco (where the opposition will not be the best of the men's pros but still at the top pro level).

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

She'd get along very well with Rojas and Benatti.

they dominate accross multiple forms of cycling too ?

Last year in a cyclo cross race the woman started 1 minute before the 14-15 year old boys (dont know how this category is called in English), and a 15 year old boy (Mathieu van der Poel) finished in front of her with quite some margin so he gained more then a minute on her.

So no way she could ride with the pro's on the road.

said rider is a superstar in the making tho

(in regards to cx i mean)

 

[DenisMenchov]

But then, again, I'm not comparing her to the World Cup guys, just as even the slower domestiques in the ProTour péloton will outpace Vos. Compare her to the slower skiers among the occasional entries in the IBU-Cup. That's more the level we should be talking about being equivalent. Vos should be looking at doing some smaller .2 races with the leading amateurs and some of the Continental Pro teams. Not racing at Eneco (where the opposition will not be the best of the men's pros but still at the top pro level).

OK, i see your point. I'm just saying leave things as they are, because you don't want to see World Champion finishing some semi-professional race in 53rd spot, as it would be stupid to see Serena Williams loosing 6-0 6-0 to someone who is 250th in mens tennis.

 

[42x16ss]

Sorry, I may have missed this, but do we have a source for this (the comparative numbers as well as Vos's results)? And what's the testing protocol?

I find it very hard to believe that any woman could have power/weight numbers anywhere near a GT winner like Menchov. It would be unprecedented - in any sport.

I'm assuming that these tests only take peak power output into consideration. If you compared Vos to some of the men that she beat in a test that measured FTP over an hour, I suspect she would get annihilated.

Vos may have similar peak power to weight as the very best men in the world but I strongly doubt that her FTP or Lactic Threshold will be comparable. Not being sexist - just pure physiology. I would like to see her race some Cat 1 equivalent or even National/Conti level events to see how she goes out of pure curiousity. The results could REALLY surprise...

 

[roundabout]

OK, i see your point. I'm just saying leave things as they are, because you don't want to see World Champion finishing some semi-professional race in 53rd spot, as it would be stupid to see Serena Williams loosing 6-0 6-0 to someone who is 250th in mens tennis.

You're wrong. Karsten Braasch was ranked 203 and Serena did win 1 game.

 

[hfer07]

I sincerely support all the women in cycling & their cry out for better recognition & support.....having said that I believe is not the proper way to star mixing men & women in order to "uplift" a particular athlete. just leave it alone & avoid headaches/BS that only comes with this type of situation...

 

[William H]

Riding for Rabo Continental would probably make more sense than the pro-tour squad. It would be good training for her, and she could probably teach a thing or two to her young team mates.

 

[El Pistolero]

Here is Michiel Elijzen's opinion about Vos riding with the men(twitter):

MichielElijzen Michiel Elijzen
Eigenlijk is het niet zo'n gek plan. Die Bronzini doet het al jaren andersom...

http://twitter.com/MichielElijzen

LOL!

 

[Mambo95]

I would like to see her race some Cat 1 equivalent or even National/Conti level events to see how she goes out of pure curiousity. The results could REALLY surprise...

There is one case of top women riding in a men's race. In 2008, a month before the Olympics, a GB women's team competed in the Ras de Cymru, which is a five day amateur stage race in Wales for Category 2 riders and below.

In the British team where Nicole Cooke and Emma Pooley, who were a month away from winning gold and silver in Beijing. In this race, Cooke came 10th on GC and Pooley won the final stage. So that would seem to be about their level in men's racing.

I don't think there's any way Vos could cope in any kind of men's Pro race.

 

[DenisMenchov]

You're wrong. Karsten Braasch was ranked 203 and Serena did win 1 game.

Since I was just making things up from my head, I assume i did a pretty good job.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Allthough I really doubt she will be able to come in with the first 50 on a MTF in a WT race. These test results are amazing, but it's hard to imagine she would be capable of such a thing as a woman among PRO man.

I love to see her try it some day though!

p.s. Marianna weights 53kg.

Anyway, even if her climbing ability is as Van Diemen says. It has no use, the speeds on the flat are much higher for the men than the woman. And the distance is 100km longer. So Marianne would still drop like a fly.

I think Marianne Vos is comparable to a guy like Jesus Hernandez. But then on a lower level.

The main problem is the speed on the flats (raw power) and the distance (endurance). Relative power is not different from men. But that has no use on flats/distance

 

[TheEnoculator]

It wouldn't make a lick of sense for Vos to be on the Pro Team. She'd just be annihilated. If she gets dropped at the Paris-Tours, she'll need to be escorted to the finish line by a couple of teammates, which would be disastrous if the team has plans to win the race. In the WorldTour, every point matters.

Fine, let her try her legs at the men's world, but at the Continental Team. Regardless how impressive her numbers are, 50% of cycling is mental toughness. Can she handle the pressure to be part of a sprint train going at 63km/h to deliver Bos? Probably not.

 

[hrotha]

Seriously? Mental toughness, of all things? The one aspect where there's no reason to think any woman would do worse than a man in cycling?

Anyway, in Spain elite women sometimes ride with junior men, but not with the u23 guys. Of course, Spanish elite women are vastly inferior to Vos.

 

[TheEnoculator]

Alright, it's been confirmed. UCI won't allow Vos to ride in men's races.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...Cycling+News+&+Race+Results+|+VeloNation.com)

But she could still potentially ride non-UCI sanctioned men's races.

 

[TheEnoculator]

Seriously? Mental toughness, of all things? The one aspect where there's no reason to think any woman would do worse than a man in cycling?

Anyway, in Spain elite women sometimes ride with junior men, but not with the u23 guys. Of course, Spanish elite women are vastly inferior to Vos.

We don't know how Vos would react in a field of men who are vastly stronger than she is. If she can be unmotivated on her own, who said she couldn't be intimidated? Men's cycling is way more competitive at this point than women's.

 

[Ryaguas]

I'm impressed how you destroy Vos here... You dont even give her a chance you just said that she will fail and fail hard (with some exceptions OFC)... Most of us wont even follow her pace in the flat or a hill... a lot of MACHOS MACHOTES here..........