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Crashes, what can be done?

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@RedheadDane

Lets give it time. This discussion is a bit ahead of its time anyway. It will sort itself out over time. Then you can decide for yourself if you will wear it or not.

We will push from time to time. When that will feel appropriate. Like lets say when somebody will say we changed the jersey color. To improve rider safety. A normal response to that can now be. What about introducing an airbag instead. And imagine it would be of a bright color.

Quick calculation returns an investment of about 30 to 50 millions over the next 3 to 5 years would be needed to speed things up. If that won't happen. Eventually somebody will still do it.

Merry Christmas.
 
The problem is, as has been pointed out multiple times, most collarbone injuries are not created by a direct blow to the clavicle but because it's a point of weakness when breaking a fall with either the arm or shoulder, which is the most frequent type of crash in professional cycling as riders will usually tumble over sideways or bail out that way to prevent a more dangerous over-the-handlebars accident. Protecting the collarbone directly therefore has very limited value in terms of reducing the injury, because it is not the collarbone itself that would need protecting, but the shoulders and upper arms, which are much harder to protect without bulky padding.

Now you're blending the purposes of protecting Joe Public on a bike ride and racing, and those are sometimes mutually exclusive; the number one thing that would reduce injuries to Joe Public in commuter or recreational bike rides is better education for motorists and cycling infrastructure. That's not applicable in bike races, because then the roads are closed and that same cycling infrastructure can beget a dangerously high level of road furniture, as anybody who's ever watched a bike race in the Netherlands can attest. In a race, it can be something as simple as better regulation of the approval of stage finishes in races where a group of 50+ riders is expected to come to the line together so we don't get nonsense like that Vuelta a Burgos sprint stage with speedbumps in the last kilometre, or just more selective parcours design that reduces the chances of large bunches coming to the line together by incentivising more aggressive racing and smaller groups.
 
@SHAD0W93

A risk of brain injury from crash. When cycling. This is always a possibility indeed. But saying that because of possible brain injury you won't wear sunscreen nor sunscreen has to be made available as a possibility. For things like protecting your skin and to lower the chance of premature skin ageing and cancer. That makes little sense. There are all sort of possible issues involved and possible ways to lower the risk. Personally i will insist on lowering the number of collarbone injuries. And hopefully in a couple of years we will see a drop in statistics. Due to airbag technology or something else. At least now we can say things like changing the color of jerseys to a more bright color. That likely won't reduce the number of collarbone injuries. We can always look in the statistics. Introduction of airbag technology likely would. Just like it did that in all other areas it was introduced. And no you wouldn't be bouncing all over the road like a ball because of it. If that would be possible. To inflate a whole ball around you. To bounce. The reality is that would not be such a bad outcome. Cyclist would likely occasionally crash for fun, though. I would wear that. But lets keep it real. Inflatable pocket on demand in collarbone area (spine, shoulder, chest, upper leg ...) is a nice start. A couple of months won't do. Said that in the next couple of years this needs to happen.

Happy holidays to you to.
Yes, it is always a possibility. So why do we want to increase the odds of that possibility while decreasing the odds of a less important body system.

Recreationally and motorbike, we will probably will see more of what you posted and variations to help protect the riders vital organs. Take when I was hit by a car last year I would have loved the first vest you posted to further protect my core even though nothing bad happened because it is better safe than sorry. Unfortunately for the many reasons listed by multiple posters it does not make sense for professional cycling at this time with the products available while you’re still avoiding other issues that were brought up with he mobility, heat, and weight.

You inflate a ball device with air + falling at high speeds + falling 3-4 ft = bouncing. Further, it only takes falling 4 ft to kill you. Even further while not comparable a 1 foot drop out of a hospital bed can cause serious injury to someone. Now while yes, their body is nothing like a professional athlete. You are underestimating how much damage a fall can do. You’re misinterpreting the ball analogy, just hold a medium sized ball in your arms in front of you and fall forward.

An inflatable safety device shaped like a ball around someone that bounces would be a terrible idea and death trap. Like come on, think about it.

Yes, you did mention it would take a couple years or years and we even agreed with you on having inflatable material of whatever the team kit is made of. That would be a smart way to do it when we have the technology available. Using something the cyclists wear currently, that doesn’t hamper their mobility, add extra weight to them making it harder to rider, increase the heat they have to deal with, and impair safety. But it would take years, and maybe not even in some of the lifetime of posters here to see an inflatable team kit be massed produced. All you’re trying to do is put a bandaid over an issue you are very passionate about.
 
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You are obviously very convinced that this will be a great success. So I am sure that you will invest every penny at your disposal into the product, and when it has made you a multiple millionaire, you can come back and laugh at us all, with our permanenty shattered clavicles as we will be the last luddites on the planet to hold out against buying this.
 
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@Libertine Seguros

Collarbone is usually the first to go. Hence if an airbag would protect upper arm and shoulder. A substantial drop in collarbone injuries would be the outcome. I don't feel this is debatable. It's a fact. Just like in other sports airbag technology was already introduced. Statistics are painfully obvious.

@SHAD0W93

Exactly. Given the choice you would wear it. Just like sun cream. As for me avoiding. I am not avoiding anything. I said current generation tech is in the lines of a casual commuter. For pro peloton we are not there yet.

@Armchair cyclist

Nah. I had that phase already. Multiple times in my life. Proven something and came back laughing. It's a nice feeling and all but there is more to it in real life. Usually i enjoy more if i am laughing with the people around me that actually mean something to me. Then to laugh to some random people. As for investing pennies. That is unrealistic. Such product needs an investment of couple ten millions in a duration of couple years. This is rather normal hence best to do it like that.

@all

First pelvis and collarbone injury confirmed this season. Looking at Gesink crash image an airbag in upper leg area would likely prevent it.

All in all now when we know what can be done. Now people laughing must start to realize the joke is on them. To stop with the silliness. A push must be made in a direction where apparel will start to offer some protection. Compared to now when it's (overpriced) garbage.
 
I'm really not sure why I'm continuing to engage here, especially as Abi seems unable to recognise dismissive comments as such, but anyway...

Abi:
How soon do you believe that these might be a viable option in race circumstances?
How soon do you think it will be a requirement in racing?
How soon do you think you will first see a leisure cyclists using it?
How soon do you think they will be an ordinary part of equipment or leisure cyclists to use, as a helmet, sunblock or a cycling computer is now?

Assuming that any answer is not in the next few months, what do you think are the barriers causing delay?

Presumably, if there is a desire for safety and profit to be made from people seeking safety, numerous companies will be racing to get such products to us, and we will be very willing customers. Why is it not happening, do you imagine?
 
Problem solved
Ex3q0i1XMAM-4IW
 
@Armchair cyclist

I already answered most of the questions you asked. In short and in my opinion the quickest way would be an investment of 10 million euros per year for the duration of 3 to 5 years. In my opinion a competent team could make it happen in such scenario. As this likely is not going to happen today. Hence it will likely take a bit longer. Unless somebody is already doing it. My prediction is it will happen eventually. And there are already such solutions in the market for commuters. So the development has been on going for at least a couple of years already.

As for the "laughs". Just remember the same thing happened with helmets and disc brakes. Majority of people that laughed now wears a helmet and uses disc brakes. And exactly this will happen in regards to wearing additional protective apparel. I personally don't blame anyone. It's normal in real life for things to develop in such way.

So for me personally. I don't see much point in wasting energy on this. To address the doubters. I just rather laugh along. With all the silly and stupid people. As the truth is it's hard to joke around and laugh sincerely with smart people. As usually they don't get it.

All in all it works for me. I like just the way it is. And that ball around the cyclist you posted earlier. I would likely kick it. Or play basketball with it. With the cyclist still in it.

Ha ha.
 
And just a friendly reminder. Introduction of more protective apparel is one of the possible solutions. More self respect and respect in the peloton is another. All determined through discussions we had so far.

Feel free to discuss further possible solutions viable for the future. Don't be so caught up other people suggestions.

It's not like we have resolve anything just yet. Lets see if any of you have what it takes. To even make a suggestion. Don't be weak. And suggest nothing can be done. Anybody can do that.

P.S. I promise i won't laugh. Unless obviously the suggestion will be silly.
 
And just a friendly reminder. Introduction of more protective apparel is one of the possible solutions. More self respect and respect in the peloton is another. All determined through discussions we had so far.

Feel free to discuss further possible solutions viable for the future. Don't be so caught up other people suggestions.

It's not like we have resolve anything just yet. Lets see if any of you have what it takes. To even make a suggestion. Don't be weak. And suggest nothing can be done. Anybody can do that.

P.S. I promise i won't laugh. Unless obviously the suggestion will be silly.
The cost of securing the kind of lengthy point-to-point courses we see in cycling is insanely prohibitive. At best we could get some ski netting at dangerous corners, mandatory pre-race road condition review by the commissaires for descents, and proper enforcement of the rules where negligence is involved. We already saw plenty of neutralisations for unsafe road conditions (tacks on the road, Foix 2012, weather conditions Tignes 2019 and so on), and the péloton can do it themselves on occasion for a variety of reasons (Milano 2009, Spa 2010).

Things like the Jakobsen crash with the bricks shoring up the finish line structure and the cars getting onto the course are not what we should be talking about here. These are things which can already be helped, have been helped, and when something like that happens it's because something went very wrong, and when it happens either the organisation or their hired security/policing has failed and should be held accountable.
If conditions necessitate it, the organisers can neutralise it or the péloton can protest it.
Maybe we need tighter regulation on what roads are suitable for a finish in World Tour races in stages classified as flat, or where we are looking at a group of >50 coming to the line together, to get rid of the likes of that downhill Katowice finish, and some actual proper enforcement of the rules within sprints based on the action and not the outcome but that's all really.
Now you're blending the purposes of protecting Joe Public on a bike ride and racing, and those are sometimes mutually exclusive; the number one thing that would reduce injuries to Joe Public in commuter or recreational bike rides is better education for motorists and cycling infrastructure. That's not applicable in bike races, because then the roads are closed and that same cycling infrastructure can beget a dangerously high level of road furniture, as anybody who's ever watched a bike race in the Netherlands can attest. In a race, it can be something as simple as better regulation of the approval of stage finishes in races where a group of 50+ riders is expected to come to the line together so we don't get nonsense like that Vuelta a Burgos sprint stage with speedbumps in the last kilometre, or just more selective parcours design that reduces the chances of large bunches coming to the line together by incentivising more aggressive racing and smaller groups.
You're welcome.
 
@Libertine Seguros

Exactly. As some started to act as this is somehow done. That something was actually done and this is all over now. That this thread has served its purpose. Somehow caught up with one possible technical solution. As if cycling apparel really ain't going to get any safety related upgrades in the future. Among other changes introduced.

Nothing was done yet.

P.S. Maybe by the time this thread reaches one of the Eddy threads in length. Maybe by then some minuscule thing will actually get done. And we will be able to say, well. Something was actually done.
 
Crashes, what can be done? Change sports. Increased bike performance and rider preparation, along with the investments this costs, has placed even more pressure on riders to get results. Such that they take more risks and fall at higher speeds. Once upon a time, a rider could brake without fear of losing his contract. No more. And yet the answer is more safety protocols, without addressing the underlying issues that work against them.
 
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@Libertine Seguros

Exactly. As some started to act as this is somehow done. That something was actually done and this is all over now. That this thread has served its purpose. Somehow caught up with one possible technical solution. As if cycling apparel really ain't going to get any safety related upgrades in the future. Among other changes introduced.

Nothing was done yet.

P.S. Maybe by the time this thread reaches one of the Eddy threads in length. Maybe by then some minuscule thing will actually get done. And we will be able to say, well. Something was actually done.
This thread hasn't "run its course", because each time we get major crashes, different causes and different lessons are there to be learned. The current safety state of the sport is the product of a century of careful adaptation to the dangers posed by the sport, which have got greater as the technology has improved and speeds have increased, as well as the professionalism of the sport meaning the gaps between talent levels in the major races are much less. That refinement process will only continue. However, there are certain limitations to what can be done which are the product of the very character of road cycling, in the same way as safety at the Isle of Man TT or the Pikes Peak International Hillclimb will never be able to replicate the level of safety at a modern F1/MotoGP circuit; even more so because it's a pack sport and you will organically see crashes just naturally occurring from touches of wheels, bumps of handlebars etc. as people place themselves in the bunch, dispose of bidons, grab musettes and all those other things that are just ingrained parts of road cycling. Road cycling can never be truly 'safe', only 'safer'.

There have been many discussions about what can, should and will be done to improve rider - and spectator - safety in this and other threads over the years. It's only become locked in on one subject of discussion because you have routinely gone back to the well on your pet subject, a solution looking for a problem, and - thankfully - there hasn't been another avoidable incident like a Jakobsen/Groenewegen severe enough to redirect discussion back to something which adds value for a while.
 
The Bubble Boy solution is a brilliant example of an engineer's solution to a problem.

Somehow, it simultaneously goes both too far and not far enough.

Too far insofar as it creates user resistance among ordinary users by making their journeys by bicycle more problematic, with time and effort needed to get into and out of the bubble: imagine popping down to the shops for some milk, it'd be a complete pain in the hole to have to spend ten minutes getting into the bubble and inflating it before you leave, then getting out of it when you get to the shops and then back into it when you'd bought your milk, and then have to deflate it when you got home in order to store it.

water-bubble.png


At the other extreme, it doesn't go far enough. Clearly, putting a safety device of that scale on the user is the wrong way of doing it. You need to put some sort of frame around the bicycle upon which you can mount deflated bags which will automatically fill with air in the event of an accident, with that being triggered by some kind of AI-programmed accelerometer that can tell the difference between an accident and not an accident.

That, though, creates a new problem: while you could build a shell-encased frame that would be aerodynamically efficient while travelling in a forward direction such a system would obviously be dangerous in crosswinds. To solve this problem an engineer would suggest adding stability by adding an extra wheel at the front of the bike and an extra wheel at the rear. As well as adding stability this would allow the use of heavier and stronger materials in the manufacture of the shell that would provide even more safety. We could perhaps call this a velocar.

velocar.jpg


With all the additional space created you could even add a motor, turning your four-wheeled bicycle into a four-wheel e-bike. You could easily get a motor capable of 150-200 HP into that space. You could also add extra seating for passengers. And air-conditioning. And a radio.

I can imagine there would be some resistance today to that sort of solution just as there was in the 1930s when Mochet had the same train of thought and the UCI banned it. So perhaps a different way is needed. Rather that protecting the rider with a near complete outer shell à la crabs and tortoises, why not work on a more simple exoskeleton that would add strength where needed. You could, for example, add some sort of exoskeletal structure along a rider's arm that would absorb some of the impact when a rider lands on the ground, thus diminishing the risk of a broken collarbone.

exo.jpg


Of course, once you develop even the most simple form of an exoskeleton the engineers would be going off on one and building a whole armoured suit for the rider, just like knights of old. Which will only confuse future historians when they learn that Bartali's nickname was l'uomo di ferro or that Ireland's Rás hero Mick Murphy was called Iron Man.

ioFscMf.jpeg


The hardcore engineers would then take that three steps further: rather than an iron suit into which the rider fits, why not build something that would take external inputs from a rider - power meter readings - and feed them into a suit-like machine which would do the actual real-world bicycle riding. The riders could be housed in some sort of studio space in which there would be no danger of them crashing. Given the noise of their pedalling would sound like a washing machine on spin cycle we could perhaps call this a spin studio.

In time, we could even do away with the real-world suit-on-a-bike and just feed the inputs into some sort of digital avatar. I've no idea what we'd call this, possibly some exotic-sounding French cycling term, like bidon.

This is the problem with engineers. They love engineered solutions. When in fact some counter-intuitive thinking is actually called for. The more safety you build into some systems the more dangerous you make them. If you look at, say, the three-kilometre rule, rather than making sprints safer they have added danger via moral hazard: riders think they're safe, riders take more risks. So instead of trying to imagine rules or technologies that add safety we need to think of ways to make cycling less safe. Just like your father would try to scare you straight in order to get you to respect danger.
 
photo of the year?

L3wYkU2LZTXoHZy5gUbXHo-840-80.jpg.webp
We now all know that he was able to sidle sideways until he could walk up the bank and all was fine, but the apparent indifference of the rest of the peloton here looks pretty damning.

"What's that? You've fallen over the side of a bridge and are just clinging on by your fingertips? Yeah, well I've got a pedal between someone else's spokes, and my mate is busy adjusting his Garmin, so you'll just have to wait."