Crashes, what can be done?

[RedheadDane]

Using such system the number of collarbone related injuries would drop substantially. Just like it did in other sports when started to being used. But the current offering is too big to be regarded as suitable for pro peloton. The target is a casual commuter. As the challenge was "show me a solution for cycling that would reduce the number of collarbone injuries". And that was achieved.

Yeah, I still think (hope) that the first focus will be to prevent serious injuries. You know, like head injuries and stuff like that.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Yeah, I still think (hope) that the first focus will be to prevent serious injuries. You know, like head injuries and stuff like that.

Imagine bouncing off this and hitting your head….

 

[Samu Cuenca]

As the challenge was "show me a solution for cycling that would reduce the number of collarbone injuries". And that was achieved.

No, the challenge was always to find solutions that could work in the pro peloton, since this was never about the general public.

I'm sure better products can be invented, but there obviously need to be a demand, which still doesn't seem to be the case currently.

 

[Bonimenier]

Yeah, I still think (hope) that the first focus will be to prevent serious injuries. You know, like head injuries and stuff like that.

I had some spare time so created an apparel to reduce head injuries

Spoiler: Apparel

 

[RedheadDane]

I had some spare time so created an apparel to reduce head injuries

Spoiler: Apparel

Of course helmets helps. But head injuries still happen, and I'll much rather the focus is on that issue - including knowing when to stop a rider from participating in a race when concussed - instead of the practical non-issue of broken collarbones. How many broken collarbones are career ending, or even season ending, unless it happens right at the end of the season?

 

[Jumbo Visma Fan :)]

Due to Tour delivering on stage 5 my motivation to discuss safety during such race was rather low. As Vuelta started and this is the first rest day. Taking into the account all the sensible arguments from this thread and while being focused on collarbone protection. Fixed brace type of collarbone protection isn't best suited for pro road cycling. Adding some material like foam wouldn't do. As the forces involved are too big. The solution must be on-demand, adequate and to be activated in the case of a crash. We already have such technology in cars and motorcycles. Some vests for cycling started to emerge a few years back.

Page Not Found - Helite

en.helite.com

This solution might not offer "full protection" as it doesn't extended to shoulders. What it does show is that you can already pack an airbag solution into a rather small package. Solutions do already exist that offer more protection:

New Backpack Deploys Airbags to Protect Bicycle Riders in Accidents

Electronic sensors detect fall from bike and inflate football-style shoulder pads for upper-torso protection

www.smithsonianmag.com

Using such system the number of collarbone related injuries would drop substantially. Just like it did in other sports when started to being used. But the current offering is too big to be regarded as suitable for pro peloton. The target is a casual commuter. As the challenge was "show me a solution for cycling that would reduce the number of collarbone injuries". And that was achieved.

The challenges still involved in regards to pro road cycling are to scale down this solution and to make it suitable for pro peloton. Here i feel that the pressure should be put on cycling apparel manufacturers. As currently they are selling equipment that doesn't offer any protection against such type of injuries. Beyond some mild road rash prevention. Once things get into motion each new generation will be more suitable for pro road cycling. I imagine that the transition phase to go from usage on some stages or sections to full time usage. Once the technology will be there. As for that to make much more sense in compared to not wearing it and risking such type of injuries and down time.

I’m sure this is all nice to a few very safety hyper focused people, but in pro cycling we need to focus on head injuries, and when riding my bike I’m not wearing this air bag around with me to save my collarbones when they aren’t a serious injury.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I’m sure this is all nice to a few very safety hyper focused people, but in pro cycling we need to focus on head injuries, and when riding my bike I’m not wearing this air bag around with me to save my collarbones when they aren’t a serious injury.

Ma’am, your child’s collarbone was protected so there’s no worries there. Unfortunately they are suffering from an anoxic brain injury and will be on a trach/vent to help them breathe.

 

[firefly3323]

Maybe this could help?

 

[StryderHells]

Oh my that thing looks straight up dangerous!

 

[hrotha]

Broken collarbones are not a serious injury, but they're a super common injury so jokes aside I'd say anything that could reduce them without compromising performance or (more importantly) looking seriously uncool would be a good idea. This probably isn't it though

 

[King Boonen]

Inflatable shoulder pads that could activate in a bunch sprint. This sounds like something Vince McMahon would want to add to cycling.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@SHAD0W93

From engineering point of view this problem was already resolved. And is currently used successfully in (motor)cycling. On top of that the examples i gave (for cycling) are not triggered manually either. As that indeed would be rather bad. If you would need to trigger it manually.

As for your likely a bit (un)serious question. If a cyclist would bounce because of airbag. And hit his head. The result would likely still be better. Because airbag would protect collarbone and helmet would protect the head. Compared to lets say breaking the collarbone and highly likely still hitting the head.

@RedheadDane

Head injuries actually is the only area that was addressed in the past already. When it comes to the apparel. With helmets. Personally i am interested in collarbones. As this is usually the first bone to give in. And if number of collarbone injuries can get reduced substantially. Then overall injuries will drop substantially as a result too. On top of that the same approach can be used to protect collarbone, shoulders, spine, chest, hip, upper leg ... On all of this places there is already an apparel available. And overall protection can be substantially improved with introduction of technology such as airbag. Compared to current apparel that at best offers some protection against mild road rash.

@Samu Cuenca

I beg to differ. This is that solution. Maybe there are better ones. But this one is a proper one too. Hence the challenge to find an appropriate solution is not there anymore. The challenge to introduce this solution in pro peloton. Such challenges indeed are still there. But i don't see any special reason on why this wouldn't get done. This discussion is likely a bit ahead of the time. But as soon as safety in pro peloton will be taken seriously. Then it will happen.

@Jumbo Visma Fan :)

When it happens i am sure that you will wear the pro peloton body armor. Just like we use discs now on road bikes. And helmets. On top of that when you will crash. You will likely remember this discussion and will came back to confirm it really worked. As lets say being a 80 year old man or woman or non binary. It saved your hip not only collarbone. When cycling and crashing. Hard to ask for more. So best to start asking your favorite apparel provider on when. And not on how you won't wear it. You will. We all will. If not sooner then after the first big crash.

 

[RedheadDane]

Head injuries actually is the only area that was addressed in the past already. When it comes to the apparel. With helmets.

Because head injuries can be, you know, fatal! No pro cyclist have ever died from a broken collarbone.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Usually we only see bots responding to four months old posts

It doesn't seem like much have happened on the issue during the past months, although the INEOS rider might avoid some crashes next from being motr visible in their new kits.

 

[SHAD0W93]

@SHAD0W93

From engineering point of view this problem was already resolved. And is currently used successfully in (motor)cycling. On top of that the examples i gave (for cycling) are not triggered manually either. As that indeed would be rather bad. If you would need to trigger it manually.

As for your likely a bit (un)serious question. If a cyclist would bounce because of airbag. And hit his head. The result would likely still be better. Because airbag would protect collarbone and helmet would protect the head. Compared to lets say breaking the collarbone and highly likely still hitting the head.

Motor cycling does not equal road cycling. Nor do the sensor systems work in the same way for either bike fundamentally, structurally, or logically for both respective sports.

Both of the products you provided are geared toward recreational cycling. For both of the products, there is a sensor that detects the fall.

The first one the sensor seems more reliable in that it’s below the seat and it says it can detect a fall when it is jolted like in a crash. The only issue is riders have their bike jolted all of the time with the way roads are, bumps in the peloton, and/or their high speeds. Like what has been brought up before and you ignored, the product could have an accidental deploy and cause an actual crash. How many times have we seen a wheel come off the road and the rider save themselves. Now imagine they have the best on and it triggers causing them to crash. Further YOUR main concern is the collar bone, this product completely ignores that by focusing on the back, chest, and neck. You can still break your collarbone by landing on your upper arm and shoulder hard which this product leans towards.

The second product sensor deploys when it feels you’re over the handlebars. Again you ignored that cyclists lean over their handlebars all of the time and an accidental deploy could occur actually causing an accident. Now this product does protect the collarbone which is your biggest concern more than the first.

You neglected to mention the multiple concerns about the added weight and heat of carrying such devices and how that will affect the cyclists.

No, the result would not be better to bounce and run the risk of hitting your head again. Instead of 1 impact causing a potential coup contrecoup accident by hitting your head on the ground and bouncing back, you could hit your head multiple times further increasing your chances of a traumatic brain injury.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Samu Cuenca

I doubt that this thread will get resolved anytime soon. As things can get done. I responded to the follow up answers. Mainly to get clean slate for the 2023 season. When i am sure that much will again be said.

@RedheadDane

If death is the only criteria. Then you ought to admit safety isn't taken seriously. Lets focus on more sensible things. Like we did with joint mobility. And found a solution that doesn't obstruct joint mobility.

@SHAD0W93

Technically there is no real difference. It can work on both just fine. As for the debate about "bouncing" on the road. Due to the airbag. I agree with you to drop such debates ASAP. It's just silly. I thought i made that clear above.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

@Samu Cuenca

I doubt that this thread will get resolved anytime soon. As things can get done. I responded to the follow up answers. Mainly to get clean slate for the 2023 season. When i am sure that much will again be said.

At least Yoda's words made sense, if you changed the order. But whatever you mean, I'm sure you'll be saying it again in the future.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Samu Cuenca

Happy holidays.

 

[RedheadDane]

If death is the only criteria. Then you ought to admit safety isn't taken seriously. Lets focus on more sensible things. Like we did with joint mobility. And found a solution that doesn't obstruct joint mobility.

Head injuries in general - not just the fatal once - are more important than collarbones. My point is that just because broken collarbones are the most frequently occuring injury, it doesn't mean it's the worst, or the one that needs most attention.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@RedheadDane

Happy holidays.

 

[SHAD0W93]

@SHAD0W93

Technically there is no real difference. It can work on both just fine. As for the debate about "bouncing" on the road. Due to the airbag. I agree with you to drop such debates ASAP. It's just silly. I thought i made that clear above.

No, these current systems are not tFrom a technological standpoint there is a big difference in how they’re deployed, where the sensor is at, and the functionality of motor bike racing, professional bike racing, and recreational bike riding. The same system for motorbikes can’t be used in cycling as there would be false deployments. Just like the two sites you posted doesn’t work for professional cycling like it does recreational. With those same systems we would get false deployments that could lead to an actual crash. Just like one of the sites doesn’t protect the collarbone like you desire.

Go outside, hold a ball, fall down, and tell us what happens and if it doesn’t end with saying you bounced you’re lying. I would even bet you bounced forward more often than not. It’s not silly, like has been said multiple times the head can be injured more or when it wouldn’t have been initially. Do you know how easy it is to damage the brain? Do you know how long it could take to rehab a brain injury? Do you know how much more you can lose due to a brain injury vs a broken collarbone? You can transplant a heart, lung, kidney, and liver and you can even live without any or all of those working. You can even mend the your fracture in the collarbone. But you can’t transplant a brain and if it goes, what’s left of you.

We try dropping the debates but then get @ weeks to months later. @‘d without our initial posts your responding to attached which could be pages back. It is silly, but you’ve been the only one this focused on the collarbone issue and ignoring what has been said. It’s good to have a passion but you still have to hear critic. Could one day riders have something like this? Yes, but it would be after all the major organs to the body are protected.

Unfortunately @CyclistAbi, your posts aren’t always clear. Cheers, Merry Christmas, happy holidays, and be safe.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@SHAD0W93

A risk of brain injury from crash. When cycling. This is always a possibility indeed. But saying that because of possible brain injury you won't wear sunscreen nor sunscreen has to be made available as a possibility. For things like protecting your skin and to lower the chance of premature skin ageing and cancer. That makes little sense. There are all sort of possible issues involved and possible ways to lower the risk. Personally i will insist on lowering the number of collarbone injuries. And hopefully in a couple of years we will see a drop in statistics. Due to airbag technology or something else. At least now we can say things like changing the color of jerseys to a more bright color. That likely won't reduce the number of collarbone injuries. We can always look in the statistics. Introduction of airbag technology likely would. Just like it did that in all other areas it was introduced. And no you wouldn't be bouncing all over the road like a ball because of it. If that would be possible. To inflate a whole ball around you. To bounce. The reality is that would not be such a bad outcome. Cyclist would likely occasionally crash for fun, though. I would wear that. But lets keep it real. Inflatable pocket on demand in collarbone area (spine, shoulder, chest, upper leg ...) is a nice start. A couple of months won't do. Said that in the next couple of years this needs to happen.

Happy holidays to you to.

 

[RedheadDane]

A risk of brain injury from crash. When cycling. This is always a possibility indeed. But saying that because of possible brain injury you won't wear sunscreen nor sunscreen has to be made available as a possibility.

Sunscreen is available, and doesn't make riding a bike more difficult. A method for protecting collarbones - especially one that wouldn't make riding a bike more difficult - simply doesn't exist. So, as has been pointed out by several of us repeatedly it would be a waste of resourches to focus so much on preventing a minor injury.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@RedheadDane

So now you are going back on claiming a solution that offers protection and doesn't reduce joint mobility doesn't exist?

Ignorance is a bliss.

Anyway. As you can see it indeed won't be easy. There will be a lot of resistance involved. Like always (including sunscreen). Still in the end we will more or less all wear it. That is the outcome will be comparable to helmets and disk brakes. The fact that a whole lot of commuters are going electric. That should help to. For elderly on electric bikes it will likely become a law eventually. To wear an airbag.

 

[RedheadDane]

So now you are going back on claiming a solution that offers protection and doesn't reduce joint mobility doesn't exist?

Because it doesn't...
You can't compare a protective gear that needs to be worn on a body part that needs to be constantly in motion while riding your bike, with a helmet, that is worn on top of the head - in case you didn't know; the skull doesn't exactly move - or sunscreen, which is, in fact, not solid.