Crashes, what can be done?

[Armchair Cyclist]

You obviously believe deeply in the effectiveness and practicality of these devices. I assume that you value your own safety and collarbone more than you do those of professional riders who are strangers to you.

Assuming both of those comments are true, please explain why we would take your proposal seriously until we have seen evidence that you have bought and are using the product.

Because if not, it appears that you are expecting them to live by a standard to which you are not willing to hold yourself.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@SHAD0W93

I mean Küng basically said he is prepared to wear one if stats will look good. Some riders in pro peloton are hence now ready to actively participate in improving safety in pro peloton, on where it comes to preventing injuries and beyond, by introducing protective apparel. So i don't see on how bringing that up is me bringing up some old debate that was already decided to not work.

As for feeling belittled and things like that. Should one praise you then in your claims on how it would be dangerous to wear such apparel? Have you in any way prove it's dangerous? Dangerous only in pro road cycling but not in plethora of other sports? If you will follow the FIS story more closely you will find yourself in it. That is initially a lot of people claimed it's dangerous to wear one, now it became mandatory. Disc brakes were said to be dangerous too, don't you remember that, like yesterday? Now everybody uses them, so sorry for not praising your opinion. It's not about belittling it's a rather normal thing, disruptive changes. They often require for people to change their mind and we all know how that works in real life. Currently you are just a victim of that, progress, still at one point you will likely wear one.

@hrotha

It took FIS a couple of years too and over there a much more pro-active approach was taken. So two years is basically nothing.

@veganrob

For sure, like at the very beginning. At PR or Flanders that is a non issue. So we can start there.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I have already explained to you more than once that the schedule for UCI rule changes will not permit anything not already announced for the 2025 season. Is there any reason for you to continue to flog this dead horse?

In reality this is on what is currently going on, contrary to your explanation. Interested parties are having meetings on where they are discussing things like earpiece ban. UCI is currently rather reluctant to ban it and as i guess the result and frustration involved, to do nothing, some go all the way to say UCI president is more into self promoting then improving safety in the peloton. So you see a lot of ego involved, proposed solutions rather weak in terms of expected outcome and not much items to be added to the list as a result. I don't post such links in this thread as it would be more like spamming. That is much ado about nothing, so i feel that only maintaining the list is much better approach. To highlight on what actually gets implemented. As for your claim on how they are not permitted to add items to the list ... I don't even know what to say to that. It's just surreal to believe that.

 

[CyclistAbi]

My post addressed six questions to you: although you quoted it, you answered not one of them. That really is not the way to move a debate forward.

Instead, you seek to draw an equivalence with disc brakes, while suggesting that these airbags should be mandatory in just a few months. Remind us of how the UCI had to fight against reticence on the part of teams and the peloton and force them into compliance on the matter of disc brakes by legislation.

I feel that disc brakes analogy is an appropriate one, to address your questions. One thing i might agree is this was indeed more of a manufacturer push on where with protective apparel it's more on the governing body. But as you can see in the FIS example i gave, that is exactly what FIS did. And hence so it will involve UCI on when it comes to cycling.

You obviously believe deeply in the effectiveness and practicality of these devices. I assume that you value your own safety and collarbone more than you do those of professional riders who are strangers to you.

Assuming both of those comments are true, please explain why we would take your proposal seriously until we have seen evidence that you have bought and are using the product.

Because if not, it appears that you are expecting them to live by a standard to which you are not willing to hold yourself.

When you say professional riders note that you can't say all of them any more. Küng hinted that if it saves him the hassle of the injury, most of the times, he is rather interested.

 

[SHAD0W93]

@SHAD0W93

I mean Küng basically said he is prepared to wear one if stats will look good. Some riders in pro peloton are hence now ready to actively participate in improving safety in pro peloton, on where it comes to preventing injuries and beyond, by introducing protective apparel. So i don't see on how bringing that up is me bringing up some old debate that was already decided to not work.

As for feeling belittled and things like that. Should one praise you then in your claims on how it would be dangerous to wear such apparel? Have you in any way prove it's dangerous? Dangerous only in pro road cycling but not in plethora of other sports? If you will follow the FIS story more closely you will find yourself in it. That is initially a lot of people claimed it's dangerous to wear one, now it became mandatory. Disc brakes were said to be dangerous too, don't you remember that, like yesterday? Now everybody uses them, so sorry for not praising your opinion. It's not about belittling it's a rather normal thing, disruptive changes. They often require for people to change their mind and we all know how that works in real life. Currently you are just a victim of that, progress, still at one point you will likely wear one.

@hrotha

It took FIS a couple of years too and over there a much more pro-active approach was taken. So two years is basically nothing.

@veganrob

For sure, like at the very beginning. At PR or Flanders that is a non issue. So we can start there.

You brought up the airbag well before bringing up what Kung stated in regards to Merckx’s crash and that an airbag around his neck/chest could have prevented his broken hip. Then when others started talking about it we went down this rabbit hole.

@James M

We already discussed it in this thread and the solution is known. If we would be there already and Eddy would wear apparel with built in air bag technology, then when crashing his hip would hit an air filled barrier instead of a rail track. That likely would have saved his hip. Anyway, when Pogi will be 80, he will likely wear it, so there is that.

As for suggesting Rogla should be banned from the peloton, for other three to get a chance, forget it.

No, no praise has to be given, but you consistently ignore what others post and cherry pick what you want to reply to. You always belittled others when they voiced their concern was the head and neck and to prevent deaths while you’ve been voicing about protecting the collarbone.

None of the airbags you posted have any data on them, but the concern was the head and neck which those offered no prosecution. The best cycling airbag on the market: https://www.designboom.com/technology/worlds-safest-bike-helmet-airbag-collar-hovding-09-19-2019/

“According to research, a cyclist wearing an airbag system like the Hövding collar can experience significantly reduced head injury risk compared to a traditional bicycle helmet, with some studies claiming it can provide up to eight times better protection, potentially lowering the risk of serious head injuries from 90% to 2% at a speed of 16 miles per hour.

Protects the neck and head but not the collarbone or lower. This airbag might have prevent what occurred with Mader and Furrer, which for Mader I was vocal about an airbag potentially helping. If whoever (Evenepoel/Vingegaard) it was hit the tree in the VaC crash an airbag would have helped as well. Just like I think this airbag might have helped with Weylandt‘ crash.

Again, the airbags for motorcycling and skiiing are not only bigger than the road cycling equivalent, but cover more of the body. I’ve already showed you how much more they weigh. That isn’t even talking about the decreased range of motion and increased heat. When the technology is there, I’m sure an airbag will be in cycling and there will be less pushback compared to the helmet or disc brakes. I’ve already stated that I would wear one but I’m a recreational cyclist, who the product is made for.

 

[Froome]

The day some rider use airbags, it will be the day i will stop watch cycling.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@SHAD0W93

Interesting.

First of all i said it on multiple occasions, that once you have such technology made available and cyclist is wearing it, after that extending it to any hot spot located on the area covered by the "dress" with an additional air pocket, that becomes a rather straightforward task. So here i must insist it's you, on who has issues with the points you raised. Collarbone. For some reason you would like to omit the collarbone and left it unprotected. You are acting rather irrational here aren't you? But OK i have a feeling on why and lets not nitpick. If we are really arguing now on which bone to protect, mere details.

Second thing to say here is i hear you and accepted. You hinted already you are in general not against it any more, now you went further and started posting hard data on effectiveness of such apparel and the numbers, well the numbers are rather blunt, aren't they? It works. Welcome to the club and lets make it happen then.

As for Eddy and his hip, here i was rather clear that likely Pogi, when 80, will be able to benefit from the good work we are doing now. For Eddy unfortunately we were too late but i am sure that he will be back on the bike before the Tour starts.

New reality:

UCI preliminary list (December 2024):

• yellow card system

FIS preliminary list (December 2024):

• Airbags are mandatory for Downhill and Super-G athletes as of 2024/25

CN forum preliminary list (December 2024):

• Airbags in general are now considered to be a viable way further

 

[CyclistAbi]

The day some rider use airbags, it will be the day i will stop watch cycling.

The way this work is you fight it, then the pro peloton starts using it, then you use it. In general it's not about free will.

Fandom is known to threaten the pro peloton, if you will wear helmet you are not a real man any more, if you will ride with disc brakes i will stop watching cycling ... The reality being the Tour starts and you put on a helmet, check the battery for being able to switch gears and check the oil level for brakes and off you go. The only difference in future being, when you crash, likely to come home to your family walking, compared to now on where it's almost mandatory for the family to come to a hospital for a visit.

 

[SHAD0W93]

@SHAD0W93

Interesting.

First of all i said it on multiple occasions, that once you have such technology made available and cyclist is wearing it, after that extending it to any hot spot located on the area covered by the "dress" with an additional air pocket, that becomes a rather straightforward task. So here i must insist it's you, on who has issues with the points you raised. Collarbone. For some reason you would like to omit the collarbone and left it unprotected. You are acting rather irrational here aren't you? But OK i have a feeling on why and lets not nitpick. If we are really arguing now on which bone to protect, mere details.

Second thing to say here is i hear you and accepted. You hinted already you are in general not against it any more, now you went further and started posting hard data on effectiveness of such apparel and the numbers, well the numbers are rather blunt, aren't they? It works. Welcome to the club and lets make it happen then.

As for Eddy and his hip, here i was rather clear that likely Pogi, when 80, will be able to benefit from the good work we are doing now. For Eddy unfortunately we were too late but i am sure that he will be back on the bike before the Tour starts.

New reality:

UCI preliminary list (December 2024):

• yellow card system

FIS preliminary list (December 2024):

• Airbags are mandatory for Downhill and Super-G athletes as of 2024/25

CN forum preliminary list (December 2024):

• Airbags in general are now considered to be a viable way further

Sure, absolutely you were bringing up “pockets and a “dress” and not harping on the products you first posted.

I’ve never been against airbags, just that the head and neck are vitally more important than the collarbone. Not only do I know how important they are to someone’s health but I deal with patients with those fractures and the head and neck life and healing process is worse. Nor am I the one to that initially raised airbags to specifically protect the collarbone, especially after Roglic’s crash in the Tour. I’ve voiced ways that the technology can be implemented but that we’re not there technologically yet.

Mortality related to a collarbone fracture;
“ Clavicle fractures can be a sign of severe injury and can be linked to increased mortality, particularly in older patients:
Mortality in elderly patients
A study found that patients over 65 with clavicle fractures had a mortality rate of 23%, nearly double the 12% mortality rate for elderly patients without clavicle fractures.
Mortality in severely injured patients
A study found that 21.4% of multitrauma patients with a clavicle fracture died during trauma care or admission.
Mortality in patients with multiple rib fractures
A study found that the overall mortality rate for patients with thoracic trauma and a clavicle fracture was 3.7%.
Mortality in patients with medial clavicle fractures
A study found that a high proportion of patients with medial clavicle fractures die within three years of the injury.”

Compared to a broken neck:
“A broken neck, or cervical fracture, can be fatal, especially in the elderly:
Mortality rates
The 1-year mortality rate for a cervical fracture is around 31.1% for patients without a spinal cord injury (SCI) and 36.5% for patients with an SCI. The mortality rate for cervical spine fractures is higher in the elderly, and is especially high for patients with comorbidities, dementia, or FDHS.”

Compared to a head fracture:
“The mortality rate for head injuries is high, with the severity of the injury being a major factor in determining the outcome:
Moderate head injury
7–10% of people with moderate head injuries will die or remain in a permanent vegetative state.
Severe head injury
Around 33% of people with severe head injuries do not survive.
In-hospital mortality
In one study, the overall in-hospital mortality rate for patients with severe traumatic brain injury was 44.1%.
Overall mortality
The overall mortality rate for patients with head injuries is 18.2%, which is three times higher than the mortality rate for people without head injuries.
The type of skull fracture can also affect the outcome:
Fissure
13.6% of cases with a fissure skull fracture are fatal, while 55.5% are non-fatal.
Comminuted
49.3% of cases with a comminuted skull fracture are fatal, while 16.6% are non-fatal.”


What’s more important to you to try and decrease further? A collarbone, head, or neck fracture?

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I feel that disc brakes analogy is an appropriate one, to address your questions. One thing i might agree is this was indeed more of a manufacturer push on where with protective apparel it's more on the governing body. But as you can see in the FIS example i gave, that is exactly what FIS did. And hence so it will involve UCI on when it comes to cycling.



When you say professional riders note that you can't say all of them any more. Küng hinted that if it saves him the hassle of the injury, most of the times, he is rather interested.

I do not see how the issue of disk brakes provides a relevant parallel in relation to any of my questions.

I was not talking about the opinions of professional cyclists, I was referring to the comparative value that you put on your own personal safety versus theirs.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

As for your claim on how they are not permitted to add items to the list ... I don't even know what to say to that. It's just surreal to believe that.

Which is why I didn't say that. Please do not misquote me.