Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Red Rick]

If I remember correct Ciccone took it quite easy and just went all in on that short steep climb to get KOM points, getting ahead of Powless in the competition. After all he was 6 minutes behind Vinge on the stage. So not an entirely fair comparison I think.

Think you downplay Vinge's performance somewhat. Rest was just terriable?

Well the number cited was 7.4, which should be higher than Ciccone is able to do. The best climber in the race doing a 7 minute section as part of a 30 minute effort faster than the best 7 minute effort of the 20th best climber isn't actually that strange. Pogacar destroyed Carapaz' attempt to win the KoM on Planche de Belles Filles in 2020 as well, although PdbF is obviously longer.

It was a very difficult time trial, coming off the back of 3 mountain stages and a rest day. Add in the up and down first half of the TT, and then a climb on the TT bike, and it makes it much more likely for riders to not get close to their best W/kg. Vingegaard got pretty close, but Combloux in isolation wasn't a better climbing performance than Marie Blanque that Tour, and that makes sense. But Pogacar especially was riding away from everyone but Vingegaard with his eyes closed that Tour, and then he takes only 15s out of Felix Gall? That's just not Pogacars level. Watts2Win, which isn't that reliable and has a tendency to overestimate, has Pog at 6.4W for 14 minutes, which is actually much worse than he did in the Planche de Belles Filles ITT. And most riders didn't break 6 W/kg for 15 minutes, which is just bad by any modern standard, let alone 2023.

So yeah, Pogacar was terrible. As was everyone else.

 

[Salvarani]

If I remember correct Ciccone took it quite easy and just went all in on that short steep climb to get KOM points, getting ahead of Powless in the competition. After all he was 6 minutes behind Vinge on the stage. So not an entirely fair comparison I think.

Think you downplay Vinge's performance somewhat. Rest was just terriable?

No one was terrible.

Vinge smashed everyone into pieces. Incredible performance.

People were gobsmacked and he said verbatim he couldnt believe the numbers he put out on the climb. So yeah, it was a huge performance compared to everyone else. Legendary one that will go down in history.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So yeah, Pogacar was terrible. As was everyone else.

Gaps often reflect performances on a given day better than estimates. Vingo didn't break the climbing record but the climb was only part of the story (then again 30 minute vs 7 minute is a considerable gap in performance). His overall level in this TT (including flat/descending sections) was phenomenal. Even someone from UAE said that even Pogacar on a very good day would've still lost it by 40 seconds.

BTW I deleted my reply from the wrong thread.

 

[Kedjan]

Ciccone might be around the 20th best overall climber in that tour but on a short climb like that he is very good I would say, better than several climbers that are overall better than him.

As Vinge said himself, he put out huge numbers that day. I remember he said he was aiming for 360 watts on the flat to "rest" a bit before the climb, but when he looked down he did 380 watts.

Sure, Pog didn't have a super day that's obvious, but that doesn't take away from Vinge's performance.

 

[Peyroteo94]

His jackpot came today. Now, no one will talk about his strange attack right before the top.
Don't know if he was attacking to be ahead before the descent.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Now, no one will talk about his strange attack right before the top.

Why are we complaining about Visma guys attacking at the points where you can attack the best on the stage again? Are you afraid you will start liking them?

 

[Peyroteo94]

Why are we complaining about Visma guys attacking at the points where you can attack the best on the stage again? Are you afraid you will start liking them?

I like Vingegaard to be honest. You are not seeing this correctly for sure...

 

[Kedjan]

Vinge pondering tt-bike in MTT?! From feltet.dk

Rumors are circulating about whether Jonas Vingegaard will ride the stage on a time trial bike. The Dane was, among other things, seen riding it during the Tour’s first rest day.

But before the start of stage 11, the Dane is keeping his cards close to his chest.

You rode a time trial setup in training yesterday. Is that what we can expect to see on Friday?

– We’ll see.

Is the time trial bike even light enough (for it to be worth using it on a mountain, ed.)?

– We’ll see, Vingegaard repeats with a secretive smile

 

[theyoungest]

Vinge pondering tt-bike in MTT?! From feltet.dk

Rumors are circulating about whether Jonas Vingegaard will ride the stage on a time trial bike. The Dane was, among other things, seen riding it during the Tour’s first rest day.

But before the start of stage 11, the Dane is keeping his cards close to his chest.

You rode a time trial setup in training yesterday. Is that what we can expect to see on Friday?

– We’ll see.

Is the time trial bike even light enough (for it to be worth using it on a mountain, ed.)?

– We’ll see, Vingegaard repeats with a secretive smile

That's from Campenaerts' Tour vlog.

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[Red Rick]

I've actually wondered about the TT bike, but I think it's a bit borderline. If the TT bike is light enough and if you can do the full watts then from like 6-7% it should be a no brainer. I'm pretty curious.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I've actually wondered about the TT bike, but I think it's a bit borderline. If the TT bike is light enough and if you can do the full watts then from like 6-7% it should be a no brainer. I'm pretty curious.

Last 7 km have around 8.5 % of average gradient (including some very steep sections). I think many guys will choose normal bikes.

 

[Red Rick]

Last 7 km have around 8.5 % of average gradient (including some very steep sections). I think many guys will choose normal bikes.

Steep sections means there's shallower sections too.

 

[Kedjan]

One would think they would have already decided tt-bike or not. Is the conclusion that tests they have done don't point in either direction? Surely they must have done some tests?!

He guesses 9 kilos in the video, that's 2-2.2 kilos more than an ordinary bike.
Climb is 8.1k at 7,6 %, so the speed shouldn't be that high. Sure, he looked good on the tt-bike on the climb in stage 16 2023, but a large part of that climb was on lesser gradients.

I'm sceptical.

 

[Peyroteo94]

One would think they would have already decided tt-bike or not. Is the conclusion that tests they have done don't point in either direction? Surely they must have done some tests?!

He guesses 9 kilos in the video, that's 2-2.2 kilos more than an ordinary bike.
Climb is 8.1k at 7,6 %, so the speed shouldn't be that high. Sure, he looked good on the tt-bike on the climb in stage 16 2023, but a large part of that climb was on lesser gradients.

I'm sceptical.

A TT bike is a mistake IMHO or will he change bikes after 3.5 km?

 

[Kedjan]

A TT bike is a mistake IMHO or will he change bikes after 3.5 km?

Bike change seems nuts. What is that 10-15 seconds? Would he gain 10-15 seconds on tt-bike over an ordinary bike in just 3,5 km? And then the stressful moment of changing bikes. No, no.

 

[Red Rick]

One would think they would have already decided tt-bike or not. Is the conclusion that tests they have done don't point in either direction? Surely they must have done some tests?!

He guesses 9 kilos in the video, that's 2-2.2 kilos more than an ordinary bike.
Climb is 8.1k at 7,6 %, so the speed shouldn't be that high. Sure, he looked good on the tt-bike on the climb in stage 16 2023, but a large part of that climb was on lesser gradients.

I'm sceptical.

If it's really 9kg than TT bike is 100% out of question. And you're not gonna do a bike change.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Steep sections means there's shallower sections too.

TT 2020, PDBF (6 km @ 8.5 %). IIRC most of guys changed to normal bikes.

 

[theyoungest]

One would think they would have already decided tt-bike or not. Is the conclusion that tests they have done don't point in either direction? Surely they must have done some tests?!

He guesses 9 kilos in the video, that's 2-2.2 kilos more than an ordinary bike.
Climb is 8.1k at 7,6 %, so the speed shouldn't be that high. Sure, he looked good on the tt-bike on the climb in stage 16 2023, but a large part of that climb was on lesser gradients.

I'm sceptical.

Usually what they do is they run projections on this stuff and then they try to find the tipping point between having a TT bike or a regular bike. Maybe in this case the projection doesn't give a conclusive answer, that's possible.

If it's really 9kg than TT bike is 100% out of question. And you're not gonna do a bike change.

It's about at which point the weight disadvantage outweighs the aerodynamic advantage. Remember Vingo rode the climb on that infamous TT two years ago way faster on his TT bike than Pogi did on his regular bike...

 

[Red Rick]

Usually what they do is they run projections on this stuff and then they try to find the tipping point between having a TT bike or a regular bike. Maybe in this case the projection doesn't give a conclusive answer, that's possible.


It's about at which point the weight disadvantage outweighs the aerodynamic advantage. Remember Vingo rode the climb on that infamous TT two years ago way faster on his TT bike than Pogi did on his regular bike...

That was steep for 7 minutes and flattened out afterwards. For that one it made sense that it was borderline.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

TT bike would be a great watch. He would've completed the Skeleton Ullrich transformation, always coming 2nd against a tyrant and pulling up to a MTT with aerobars.

 

[HashRouge]

I'm certain he knows what set up he's using, but there's no way he (or the team) will confirm until they day. They'll want to keep everyone guessing.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

He guesses 9 kilos in the video, that's 2-2.2 kilos more than an ordinary bike.

I'm sceptical.

I would guess that the other option is a normal bike but with TT bars for the flat section. The TT bars are probably not that heavy, but also not 0 gram, so that makes the difference a bit smaller.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

It's a sub 20 minute climb. If the TT bike is 2.5kg heavier, you would lose somewhere around 1 minute on the climb due to the extra weight iirc. Aero advantage for the TT bike will be minimal to non-existent at around 21km/h on the climb. Aero advantage on the first 3.5km flat, i could see somewhere between 20-30 seconds at best. Imho, doing the entire thing on a TT bike, the trade-off seems ludicrous. If you do a bikechange, it could be worth it if everything goes smoothly, but it's an added risk with minimal gains, maybe 5-10 seconds best case scenario.

Road bike with TT handlebars could work, but even though it will give you somewhat of a better aero position, it still won't give you anything close to TT bike aero advantages. So how much are you really gaining by it on 3.5km? Maybe 10 seconds? But then it also adds a few hundreds of grams of weight to your setup, and how much of that advantage are you going to salvage on the top? Maybe 2-5 seconds? It's something but it's not going to make you win or lose the Tour.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

@Logic-is-your-friend 2.5 kg difference is really a lot. I agree it makes no sense then to do the climb on a TT bike. I guessed the difference was smaller than that (but I have no specific knowledge about it) and it was closer to a borderline case.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

@Logic-is-your-friend 2.5 kg difference is really a lot. I agree it makes no sense then to do the climb on a TT bike. I guessed the difference was smaller than that (but I have no specific knowledge about it) and it was closer to a borderline case.

I think the difference would have to be 1-1.5kg to make the least bit of sense.