Crazy Motorists

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Jun 16, 2009
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Gosh just cant resist here,
You said if a door hits your bars just right so that means a slim margin for error, which in this case translates to a slim margin for occurence. Given that the cyclist is moving as well as the door moving this equals an even slimmer margin. Possible yes, likely no. Far from tthe absolute occurence that you predict in an earlier post. I say muvh more likely to get hit from behind, but we differ on that. Any way even if you were to manage to hit me,
what prevents me from grabbing the door for stability? it is now in contact with me remember? My bars, where my hands rest. Before you are able to hit my bars i will already have my hand on the door.Just one possibility of many. Gotta think on you feet here son :D

Here is a little crash quiz for you, you are caught in a multirider pileup in a criterium, a few riders in front of you are just hitting the ground, as well as riders on both sides, the one on your right started to slide underneath you and has taken out your wheels.(true story btw)
How best to avoid injury?
 
Where I live it's the group riders that did us in. They sometimes ride two abreast and will have about a dozen cars behind them doing 20MPH waiting to pass. The drivers are just livid and I really can't blame them. With the horrible roads, increased traffic, and self-centered drivers I can see the day when riding in my area will become too risky. I mostly blame the government for not providing at least a 1' foot mandatory paved shoulder. The percentage of incidents with motorists is almost nil when I'm riding on a decent shoulder.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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SpeedWay said:
Where I live it's the group riders that did us in. They sometimes ride two abreast and will have about a dozen cars behind them doing 20MPH waiting to pass. The drivers are just livid and I really can't blame them. With the horrible roads, increased traffic, and self-centered drivers I can see the day when riding in my area will become too risky. I mostly blame the government for not providing at least a 1' foot mandatory paved shoulder. The percentage of incidents with motorists is almost nil when I'm riding on a decent shoulder.

Yeah i hear you, there has always been a debate as to safe interaction with motorists. One size does not fit all. Increased visibilty in some circumstances is seen as safer. in other cases it can infuriate already impatient motorists.
Earlier someone mentioned waving & smiling back at the motorists, where i come from the drivers would say
"Look at that smug SOBEE, waving at me & taunting me, I'll show him!"

Same response as cyclist gave to drivers who honk
In my drivers ed booklet you were supposed to honk anytime you approached a cyclist. We all know there is little as aggravating as getitng honked at
but how do we know they are mad or just following the rules published by the state?

Personally when i am in areas that make it feasable, especially rural areas where you encounter farm vehicles, i spend alot of time on the gravel shoulder. Kind of like cyclocross. the only time i go back on the road is when the road is clear behind. When a vehicle gets within about a quarter mile i bunny hop off the road, It helps keep the bike handling skills sharp.
Also builds alot of goodwill with the drivers in the area, Believe me if you have ever driven a pickup pulling a couple wagons full of corn you really appreciate people getting off the road in front of you.
I know cyclists who assert their right to the roadway but who wants to be "dead right"?
 
Ninety5rpm said:
That's pretty good, as long as you also remember that making eye contact alone is not necessarily evidence of being noticed! I also look for other indications that they've noticed before I put myself in a position where being noticed is critical to my safety, like slowing down or other behavior that is inexplicable except because they have noticed me.
true that:cool:
 
runninboy said:
He was mad and he wanted to take me out.
Dude, if someone in a car really wants to take you out, you're toast. Even someone with your extraordinary skills can't do anything about that. You realize that, don't you?

runninboy said:
it was a downhill stretch i was going at least 27 and probably closer to 33, the car was not far back but would take at least 4 seconds to pass.
Your story is simply incredible.

runninboy said:
I wish you lived in So Cal i would love to take you on an uphill stretch and let you try & door me at 6mph. You are unbelievable. You don't know me, my skills involved, I have in fact done bicycle stunt work on a TV commercial.
Yeah, stunt skills are really useful in traffic. They have a whole section on that in the driver's manual. :rolleyes:

runninboy said:
Just because you do not have the skills involved does not mean everyone is at your level.
You're conflating bicycling handling skills with traffic skills. Very different.

runninboy said:
Anyway i would suggest you learn to approach things with an open mind, this helps keep you safe. Anything can happen at any time
Stay safe, man.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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SpeedWay said:
Where I live it's the group riders that did us in. They sometimes ride two abreast and will have about a dozen cars behind them doing 20MPH waiting to pass. The drivers are just livid and I really can't blame them. With the horrible roads, increased traffic, and self-centered drivers I can see the day when riding in my area will become too risky. I mostly blame the government for not providing at least a 1' foot mandatory paved shoulder. The percentage of incidents with motorists is almost nil when I'm riding on a decent shoulder.

Boy I couldn't agree with this more.

Here is what I love, you've got 30 or so riders doing a double pace line
taking up an entire lane. You are the fourth or fifth car in line waiting to
get around them. Finally you get to pass them but wait you come to a red
light and here they all come working their way to the front of the line and and you get to try and pass them all again.
NO FREAKIN' Etiquette.
I have been riding for over 25 years and it even makes me want to run
them off the road.
I refuse to ride with a couple of clubs where I live because they don't have any regard for the vehicles around them and are constantly angering motorists.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Ninety5rpm said:
Yeah, stunt skills are really useful in traffic. They have a whole section on that in the driver's manual. :rolleyes:


QUOTE]


Stunt skills are applicable. You cannot always avoid a situation. Contrary to your viewpoint these skills can help you survive a situation where someone does want to take you out. I have illustrated one instance. Of course you counter that it was not his intention otherwise he would have done so.
Besides the fact that i was there and you were not I question your logic.
So if someone shoots you and you live the other person should not be charged with attempted murder because obviously if he REALLY wanted to kill you you would be dead?

Anyway back to stunt skills
Sooner or later there is a good chance you will find yourself in a bad situation, whether it is your fault or not has no bearing on survival.
Stunt skills at this point are alot more useful as you are past the point where your traffic skills could save your life.
You must make a decision and not try to brake and avoid which will only keep your bike upright. You can impact a car in many ways and trying to avoid contact could result in a more serious injury. I used the car as a last resort to keep myself upright with no injury. If someone pulls in front of you and stops swerving out into traffic might kill you. Trying to stop with a death grip on the handlebar will result in you t boning the car and probably folding your bike and body into the side of the car. However if it is the right height you can turn your bike at the last minute and as your bike impacts the car you aim to put your side/back on the hood & roll across while you protect your head with your hands. A variation of the old tuck & roll cyclist used to practice before helmets.

People usually try & avoid crashing at all costs but there is a point where u will crash and it is best to know how to avoid injury. If you are on a mountain road it is far better to lay your bike down and slide, then tbone a guardrail.

I believe in traffic skills but bike skills might save your life if u think ahead.
I still believe that there is a point of no return where we are at the mercy of motorists, apparently you now agree with that assessment as you say when someone wants to take u out they can.
However we dont have to give up when we reach that point.
Stunt skills are a way to possible survive such a situation.
Best of Luck
:D
 
Jun 16, 2009
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8 Seconds said:
Boy I couldn't agree with this more.

Here is what I love, you've got 30 or so riders doing a double pace line
taking up an entire lane. You are the fourth or fifth car in line waiting to
get around them. Finally you get to pass them but wait you come to a red
light and here they all come working their way to the front of the line and and you get to try and pass them all again.
NO FREAKIN' Etiquette.
I have been riding for over 25 years and it even makes me want to run
them off the road.
I refuse to ride with a couple of clubs where I live because they don't have any regard for the vehicles around them and are constantly angering motorists.

I agree, i avoid most group rides now for that very reason. When i would ride with my club we would ride as a small group and at stops just keep our place in traffic. We were always aware of keeping out of the way of people turning right etc. While there are some situations where following the law jeopordizes your safety more than following the law, it is important to be sympathetic to the motorists. If we turn this into us versus them we are in trouble because the cars survive the impacts alot easier than we do.
 
runninboy said:
Today I was making a left hand turn at a four way stop, there was a car coming toward me, about 40 yards from the intersection, still doing about 45 mph, so i slowed my turn and changed the radius so i would stay in front of him as long as possible. Forcing him to either hit me or stop, which he finally 30 feet into the intersection.
then he lays on the horn.
this is an almost daily occurence for me while driving.
I'm trying to make sense of what you're trying to say, and so going back to this excerpt from the OP.

Almost daily occurrence? After over 30 years of driving and 40 years of bike riding, including almost 30 years of that in Southern California, what you describe above as an almost daily occurrence never happens to me. Never. Now, I have friends who would agree with you, and they drive very differently, much less defensively, and with a chip on their shoulder, if you will. They crash their bikes fairly regularly. They get involved in fender benders that "could not be avoided", etc. They're used to being honked at "almost daily" and assume it happens to everyone. They're wrong.

How you are treated generally has almost everything to do with how you behave, and almost nothing to do with others. And that applies to all social aspects of life, not just traffic.

My philosophy is that I use traffic skills to avoid getting into near-misses as well as crashes. Just in case I fail to anticipate something properly, I am prepared to do an instant turn, quick stop, etc. And I wear a helmet. But, like I said before, if I ever have a near miss, much less have to rely on these measures of last resort, that to me would be a sign that I have failed in following proper defensive practices.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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8 Seconds said:
Boy I couldn't agree with this more.

Here is what I love, you've got 30 or so riders doing a double pace line
taking up an entire lane. You are the fourth or fifth car in line waiting to
get around them. Finally you get to pass them but wait you come to a red
light and here they all come working their way to the front of the line and and you get to try and pass them all again.
NO FREAKIN' Etiquette.
I have been riding for over 25 years and it even makes me want to run
them off the road.
I refuse to ride with a couple of clubs where I live because they don't have any regard for the vehicles around them and are constantly angering motorists.

So you have four or five people "stuck" behind 30 or so people and you think the 30 or so people should do everything they can to let the 4 or 5 people get ahead so they can get stuck behind each other at the next traffic light....

Maybe the four or five people in their 1 tonne boxes should be riding instead? Then we wouldn't need so many traffic lights.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Ninety5rpm said:
I'm trying to make sense of what you're trying to say, and so going back to this excerpt from the OP.

Almost daily occurrence? After over 30 years of driving and 40 years of bike riding, including almost 30 years of that in Southern California, what you describe above as an almost daily occurrence never happens to me..

Ok, I live in an area that is rather remote,4 way stops, closest stop light is over 2 miles in any direction. Wide streets with a 50 mph speed limit. Cars don't want to slow let alone stop.
Again today i approached a 4 way stop in my car. one car coming from my left at a high rate of speed. I start my left hand turn, he blows the stop sign and actually swerves to his right to avoid me.
Then he comes to a complete stop on the other side of the intersection because it is a gated community.
Apparently he did not wish to stop twice if he could avoid it.

Almost every time i come to this intersection the people who are going into the gated community of multi million dollar homes refuse to stop.
they don't stop at the intersection when they are heading in
they don't stop coming out.
there are other exits from this community and another one where the same thing happens. Then another 4 way stop.
But this is not the only danger zone, there is also an elementary school nearby. most cyclists will not get within miles of this area during drop off & pick up times. It is unbelieveable what goes on then.

And you know what? you can save your lecture on social behavior.
From the positions you have taken in your posts, you seem to be quite judgmental. You project your own reality into situations and decide that there is only one way of doing or seeing things. Yours. Everything must agree with your assessment. If not it is wrong.
If people get into bad situations it is because they brought it upon themselves. No such thing as innocent victim in your eyes. And of course you have all the answers. When presented with realization that there is more than one way to approach most everything, you instead dismiss the facts then offer your own interpretation of what must have " really" happened .
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Ninety5rpm said:
Almost daily occurrence? After over 30 years of driving and 40 years of bike riding, including almost 30 years of that in Southern California, what you describe above as an almost daily occurrence never happens to me.

How you are treated generally has almost everything to do with how you behave, and almost nothing to do with others. And that applies to all social aspects of life, not just traffic.

QUOTE]

Since you rode/ride in Socal why don't you ask Thurlow Rogers if he has similar encounters. Ask him in particular about the time OJ Simpson almost ran him over with his Bentley. Nicole apparently saved Thurlows life because OJ said he was gonna kill Thurlow and Nicole held OJ back. I think Thurlow gave a deposition and was on the witness list for the trial.

Of course this was all because Thurlow is such a terrible person and he brought this on himself?
shoot! forgot the sarcastic sign, in case anyone is in doubt Thurlow is a really cool guy on & off the bike. A very benevolent individual.
 
Ninety5rpm said:
Second, vehicular traffic tends to travel in a relatively straight lane in more or less the same position. The key here is that, in a wide shared lane, the cyclist's line of travel should parallel the line of travel of adjacent overtaking traffic, which is generally not parallel to the edge of the road (the edge of the road often meanders for various reasons relative to the center of the road, and the line of vehicular travel which parallels the center of the road). If vehicular traffic is using one frame of reference to determine their line of travel (center of the road or a line parallel to it), while the cyclist is using another frame of reference that is not parallel to the one they are using (edge of the road), conflict occurrence is practically guaranteed.

In my opinion there are a few fundamental problems with using the the line of adjacent traffic as a a point of reference for your position on the road. Firstly I disagree that "vehicular traffic tends to travel in a relatively straight lane in more or less the same position" on the road my experience is that over taking traffic can vary by as much as a metre - some drivers like to huge the curb, some like to stay close to the white line and everywhere in between. So to pick a line concerning the traffic is troublesome.

Also traffic (unless in a very heavy rush hour traffic) tends to come by in groups of different sizes at different intervals thus leaving the cyclist without a point of reference for positioning much of the time unless you, say, put wing mirrors on your bike to check for overtaking traffic. So my point is that on quieter roads using the overtaking traffic as your reference point is ineffectual if not impossible. In this circumstance it is the drivers responsability to overtake safely.

Ninety5rpm said:
So, the problem with edge-of-road orientation is that doing so can easily cause the cyclist to inadvertently travel into the path of overtaking traffic. Consider a road that narrows, with the outside lane going from wide to narrow, perhaps because the road physically narrows for some reason, or maybe because of parked cars or some other obstruction. This happens all the time; I'm sure you can identify such situations on your regular routes. At any rate, the motorists are maintaining course relative to the center of the road (and their lane stripe), while the cyclist up ahead is following a course one meter from the edge, which is moving in. Now such a cyclist is usually apt to simply keep following his course, and so is the motorist, yet the two courses are about to collide! It usually doesn't occur to the intermediate edge-following cyclist that this is his fault... after all, he's just following his line of travel one meter from the edge... But doing so means he is the one moving into the path of overtaking traffic without yielding. The proper behavior here is for the cyclist to notice that his current position, say 3' to the right of overtaking traffic, or 13' to the right of the traffic lane stripe, or whatever, is disappearing due to the narrowing roadway, and he needs to merge left, which implies yielding and negotiating as necessary. If he's just following the edge of the road he's less likely to notice it, or will notice it much later, than if he was orienting himself relative to the overtaking traffic rather than the edge.

The critical distinction is not just semantic; a merge is a change in course (and is subject to yielding to those already following that course), while continuing to follow one's line of travel is not a change in course that is subject to yielding to, and negotiating with, others. So if you perceive it is the latter rather than the former, you don't realize it's your responsibility to yield and negotiate prior to moving closer to the center of the road, even though your position relative to the edge remains fixed. Most intermediate cyclists are familiar with this type of conflict, but their understanding is vague. They just know they hate it when the road narrows, but they're unsure of exactly why or how best to handle it. For example, local cycling email lists worldwide are riddled with complaints about constructions zones and how they "suddenly put you right in traffic" (as if they weren't "in traffic" prior to that point).

Anyway, that's why it's important to think of your position relative to the center of the road (and lines parallel to it, like traffic lane stripes, and the line generally followed by vehicular traffic itself), rather than relative to the edge of the road. From those choices, if you select faster overtaking vehicular traffic itself as your "base", the general rule of thumb is to ride about one meter to the right (left in UK) of that. What I like about this rule is that it implies you can (and I believe you should) ride much further left (right in UK) during gaps in that faster overtaking traffic.

Does that help you understand what I mean?

The issue of merging lanes is different from that of positioning: regardless of whether you use the edge of the road or the overtaking traffic as a reference point the obstacle of a parked car or anything for that matter will, as you said, require you to merge with the traffic in your lane. This is simply an issue of checking behind you and indicating to come in to their 'part of the lane' or whatever you want to call it. This skill of, lets call it 'merging in your own lane' is the one of the first things my dad taught me when I first rode on the roads when I was young. I will admit that many cyclist do not check over their shoulder (I often forget) but I think complacency is apparent here rather than lack of road skills. If a motorist moved out towards the centre of the road to avoided a parked car and a overtaking car hit them the overtaker would be at fault because they have not paid due attention to what is happening in the road.

The problem with cycling on the roads is that there are lot of grey areas in law and in practice. The issue we are discussing here is the one of there actually being multiple lanes in a single lane when cyclists and motorists use the roads together. Now one of my main complaints against motorist is that they do not appreciate cyclists rights on the roads. We could, legal speaking, ride in the middle of the lane all the time but it is good etiquette only to do this when it is necessary. Many a time I have been honked at when changing lane on a dual carriage way as the motorist has simply not recognised my right to pull into the next lane (after properly indicating and waiting for a gap), the problem here being that with fast moving overtaking traffic for you to change lane they must slowdown and let you in ( here you are at their mercy due to there being lanes within lanes)
 
runninboy said:
Ninety5rpm said:
Almost daily occurrence? After over 30 years of driving and 40 years of bike riding, including almost 30 years of that in Southern California, what you describe above as an almost daily occurrence never happens to me.

How you are treated generally has almost everything to do with how you behave, and almost nothing to do with others. And that applies to all social aspects of life, not just traffic.

QUOTE]

Since you rode/ride in Socal why don't you ask Thurlow Rogers if he has similar encounters. Ask him in particular about the time OJ Simpson almost ran him over with his Bentley. Nicole apparently saved Thurlows life because OJ said he was gonna kill Thurlow and Nicole held OJ back. I think Thurlow gave a deposition and was on the witness list for the trial.

Of course this was all because Thurlow is such a terrible person and he brought this on himself?
shoot! forgot the sarcastic sign, in case anyone is in doubt Thurlow is a really cool guy on & off the bike. A very benevolent individual.

Thurlow Rogers testified against OJ? I had not heard that story.

Anyway, whether you're a good or terrible person does not necessarily correlate well with with how good or terrible you are "socializing" in traffic, as far as I know.

Encountering someone capable of road rage is only a matter of time. The key with road rage is to recognize the situation before it even gets to level 1, and not let it get there, much less allow it to escalate to levels 2 or 3. Sociopaths are drivers too; ride accordingly...

I'll ask again. Do you use a mirror? And I'll say again, I seriously doubt it. I doubt Thurlow does either. That doesn't make you terrible people. It does make it much more difficult for you to quickly recognize and assess potential conflict situations developing behind you before they escalate.
 
craig1985 said:
If you can't avoid a 'door zone' where are you meant to ride?
Good question.

Why can't you avoid the door zone? Track five feet from the parked cars. I never get closer than that to parked cars. While I avoid inconveniencing motorists (including making them wait or have to change lanes to pass) whenever it's safe and reasonable, I will not compromise my safety in order to make it easier for them to pass me. Riding in a door zone is compromising my safety. Not an option.
 
uphillstruggle said:
In my opinion there are a few fundamental problems with using the the line of adjacent traffic as a a point of reference for your position on the road. Firstly I disagree that "vehicular traffic tends to travel in a relatively straight lane in more or less the same position" on the road my experience is that over taking traffic can vary by as much as a metre - some drivers like to huge the curb, some like to stay close to the white line and everywhere in between. So to pick a line concerning the traffic is troublesome.

Also traffic (unless in a very heavy rush hour traffic) tends to come by in groups of different sizes at different intervals thus leaving the cyclist without a point of reference for positioning much of the time unless you, say, put wing mirrors on your bike to check for overtaking traffic. So my point is that on quieter roads using the overtaking traffic as your reference point is ineffectual if not impossible. In this circumstance it is the drivers responsability to overtake safely.
You're taking the suggestion too literally. It's a rule of thumb. The main point is to choose a track that is parallel to the center of the road, rather than a track that is parallel to the edge of the road.

On quiet roads it's a moot point for me because during gaps of more than 20 seconds or so I'm always taking the lane (in some position tracking parallel to the adjacent lane stripe).

But on busy roads where there is a line of traffic passing me, I find that they generally follow a track parallel to the center of the road. Look anywhere you want on google maps in satellite view mode and try to find lines of traffic that are not parallel to the center of the road. But yeah, once in a while there is an outlier tracking nearer the curb who needs to adjust laterally to pass me as needed, always long before it's too late (I verify in my mirror).


uphillstruggle said:
The issue of merging lanes is different from that of positioning: regardless of whether you use the edge of the road or the overtaking traffic as a reference point the obstacle of a parked car or anything for that matter will, as you said, require you to merge with the traffic in your lane. This is simply an issue of checking behind you and indicating to come in to their 'part of the lane' or whatever you want to call it. This skill of, lets call it 'merging in your own lane' is the one of the first things my dad taught me when I first rode on the roads when I was young. I will admit that many cyclist do not check over their shoulder (I often forget) but I think complacency is apparent here rather than lack of road skills.
Oh, I agree about the complacency, but I think it stems from being used to mindlessly tracking some fixed distance from the edge of the road. Nearly every cyclist I encounter on the road is doing this. It clearly does not occur to them that they need to check for space and possibly yield and negotiate for that space when they need to move closer to the center of the road within their lane.

uphillstruggle said:
If a motorist moved out towards the centre of the road to avoided a parked car and a overtaking car hit them the overtaker would be at fault because they have not paid due attention to what is happening in the road.
No, the overtaker is not always at fault. I'm sure you agree that the overtakee cannot suddenly swerve into the path of the overtaker. Yet that's exactly what bicyclists do, even though the reason they are swerving might be practically necessary. That reason for suddenly swerving does not change the right of way of rules. The person with right of way already established along a particular line of travel has the right of way; you can't suddenly swerve into that line simply because there is a parked car ahead of you. You need to yield, or negotiate with, those who already have right of way on that line. This is the point which is not understood by most bicyclists, and why motorists get so annoyed with bicyclists who suddenly swerve out without even looking back first, much less signaling and at least offering to yield by slowing down (or, even better, look ahead and move towards the center well before reaching the point where they must do so).

uphillstruggle said:
The problem with cycling on the roads is that there are lot of grey areas in law and in practice. The issue we are discussing here is the one of there actually being multiple lanes in a single lane when cyclists and motorists use the roads together. Now one of my main complaints against motorist is that they do not appreciate cyclists rights on the roads. We could, legal speaking, ride in the middle of the lane all the time but it is good etiquette only to do this when it is necessary. Many a time I have been honked at when changing lane on a dual carriage way as the motorist has simply not recognised my right to pull into the next lane (after properly indicating and waiting for a gap), the problem here being that with fast moving overtaking traffic for you to change lane they must slowdown and let you in ( here you are at their mercy due to there being lanes within lanes)
To the contrary, I move aside only when it is necessary. What you're talking about (in bold) is a default position of riding near the edge; I'm talking about having a default position in the center of the lane, using the secondary position near the edge only when safe, reasonable and necessary. This is the method espoused by John Franklin in his book Cyclecraft, a must read in my opinion for all bicyclists (especially now that a North American edition is available).

As to getting honked at when riding in the middle of the lane, I use a mirror. If the lane is wide enough I move aside in time, and they end up waving and smiling at me rather than honking. If the lane is too narrow I let them know I know they're coming before they honk. I look back at them, nod, use the slow/stop signal. This is the socialization aspect of traffic. Remember it's a person behind you, not a car. They like to be acknowledged. I used to get honked at, or get into some kind of conflict in traffic, a few times a week. Now that I've adopted the kind of stuff I'm writing about in this thread, I don't get honked at or have some kind of difficulty more than a handful of times per year. Much better. No comparison. Did you watch the videos at www.youtube.com/CyclistLorax I referenced earlier?
 
Jun 22, 2009
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badboyberty said:
So you have four or five people "stuck" behind 30 or so people and you think the 30 or so people should do everything they can to let the 4 or 5 people get ahead so they can get stuck behind each other at the next traffic light....

Maybe the four or five people in their 1 tonne boxes should be riding instead? Then we wouldn't need so many traffic lights.


I am pretty sure that is not what I said. My point is after a car passes me
I do not go to the front of the line at a stop light making them have to pass
me again. Unless there is a bike lane then it is a moot point because they
would not of had any difficulties passing me in the first place.

Oh and I was being nice by saying they were riding a double pace line.
Really it was more like a huge group of riders with no organization at all.

I would absolutely love it if I could ride my bike everywhere I go. Not
really an option for me. Or for that matter millions of people.

I know it sounded as though I am an angry motorist. Not at all. What
angers me more is seeing fellow cyclist who show no etiquette towards
motorists. Which in turn makes riding for the rest of us precarious.
I realize the same could be said for motorists towards cyclists, and it
angers me just as much if not more when I see that.
 
8 Seconds said:
Oh and I was being nice by saying they were riding a double pace line.
Really it was more like a huge group of riders with no organization at all.
One thing that's often overlooked is that if the lane is too narrow for even one bicyclist to share with a car, both fully within the lane, then there is no obligation for the bicyclist to keep right. He could (and arguably should) be left of center, possibly even at the left edge of the lane (assuming U.S. orientation, sorry), to make it clear that overtaking motorists need to cross the center stripe to pass (or change lanes if it's a multi-lane road). Otherwise they might think there is room to pass within the lane, and not slow down or prepare to cross the center stripe until too late, perhaps when there is oncoming traffic, and there is nothing they can do but try to squeeze in and pass the cyclist too closely. The importance of riding clearly out in the center of the lane in such situation cannot be overemphasized, especially to cyclists who often get close passes and are worried about getting hit by a right side mirror. Get. Away. From. That. Edge!

And if a cyclist can be all the way over on the left edge, what difference does it make if there is one, or two, three or five or even seven cyclists to his right? Either way, overtaking motorists need to move over the center stripe to pass. What difference does it make if they have to move all the over the center stripe to pass a bunch of cyclists rather than just straddle the center stripe to pass a long string of cyclists riding single file near the right edge?

Also, 100 cyclists riding single file (about 1000' long!) are often harder to safely pass than 100 riders riding in a 5 x 20 "clump" (only 200' long). And a single file group impacts cross traffic much more than does a 5 x 20 group.

But I agree with you about passing cars at stop signs and red lights. Bicyclists, especially when riding in groups, should just take their turn in line. "Swarming" around all the stopped cars like locusts in heat is all too common, and terrible.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Ninety5rpm said:
Also, 100 cyclists riding single file (about 1000' long!) are often harder to safely pass than 100 riders riding in a 5 x 20 "clump" (only 200' long). And a single file group impacts cross traffic much more than does a 5 x 20 group.

Very good point. I am estimating that there were about thirty or so riders.
Could have been been a couple more or less. But no where near 100.
I don't want to sound like a jerk but I'd like to know where you get your
estimation of 100 cyclists in a pace line being 1000' long. I would estimate
it would be about half of that, still a long line of bikes to have to pass.

Honestly I have less of a problem with their unorganized group riding then
there complete lack of etiquette.
Mostly because it will in one way or another impact me when I am out riding.
 
8 Seconds said:
Very good point. I am estimating that there were about thirty or so riders.
Could have been been a couple more or less. But no where near 100.
I don't want to sound like a jerk but I'd like to know where you get your
estimation of 100 cyclists in a pace line being 1000' long. I would estimate
it would be about half of that, still a long line of bikes to have to pass.

Honestly I have less of a problem with their unorganized group riding then
there complete lack of etiquette.
Mostly because it will in one way or another impact me when I am out riding.

My bad. I was thinking a bike plus following space is about 10 feet, but it's probably more like 7 or 8' if they're drafting efficiently, so 100 bikes = 700 to 800 feet long.

What city are we talking about, by the way?
 
May 6, 2009
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Ninety5rpm said:
Good question.

Why can't you avoid the door zone? Track five feet from the parked cars. I never get closer than that to parked cars. While I avoid inconveniencing motorists (including making them wait or have to change lanes to pass) whenever it's safe and reasonable, I will not compromise my safety in order to make it easier for them to pass me. Riding in a door zone is compromising my safety. Not an option.

Sometimes you can't avoid them. I live near a church and not surprisingly there a lot of cars parked near it on a Sunday, it is not always possible to avoid such 'zones' especially when I have ridden down to the shop to buy the morning paper. Coming back from training rides or races aren't a problem because I tend to come a different way, unless I have done a loop which will take me through the 'door zones'.

The one thing that used to **** me was when riding to my last job and there would be a lot of road works going on (I would be riding to work at 4.30am) and so a lot of dirt/rocks would be left on the road shoulder which forced me over towards the white line and sometimes on the road. The worst bit when we had some heavy rain as I rode in the middle of the road to avoid some massive puddles. Thankfully there wasn't a lot of traffic. Now before you ask, this was the only way I could go to get to my workplace (and the road leading up to my former workplace was fill of pot holes and in a real bad shape, and again it was only one way in and out of place so I had no option to go that way.

Touch wood, I have only had two incidents with cars, one I maintain was not my fault (I had indicated to a car that was stopped at a stop sign that I was going forward, so he stopped and then another car had pulled out in front of me to which I hit the back of the boot and flew over and landed on my chin) and the second one it is fair to say I was at least 50% to blame for the incident.

I had a near miss last year as I was riding home from work and I had to go down a bridge and there was a sharp right corner and to the side was a lot of gravel, and I had a tail wind so I was doing 40+km/h and provided there was no car behind me I could move into the middle of the lane and take the right hand corner on the drops and not need to brake. But on this time I was going down the bridge at speed and approaching the car (I didn't catch the car, he caught me) and decided to overtake me just before the sharp corner, so I braked to let him go, but I was forced onto the gravel bit which caused my tyres to slide, so I eased off the brakes to stop my rear wheel from locking up and going off road up and over a few bumps on grass and somehow avoided from going over my handlebars (this is a road bike) and when I found a smooth bit of grass I was able to slow down and stop. WAC. If the driver had let me go through the corner first it would of been fine and he would have lost perhaps 3 seconds. Now to be purely selfish I often (If I can) try to go through first because I know it is safer for me then to follow a car around.

Anyway I have to go to school.
 
craig1985 said:
Sometimes you can't avoid them. I live near a church and not surprisingly there a lot of cars parked near it on a Sunday, it is not always possible to avoid such 'zones' especially when I have ridden down to the shop to buy the morning paper.
I don't get it. What's preventing you from riding further away from the parked cars? Where would you ride a motorcycle on that street? Why not ride there?

craig1985 said:
The one thing that used to **** me was when riding to my last job and there would be a lot of road works going on (I would be riding to work at 4.30am) and so a lot of dirt/rocks would be left on the road shoulder which forced me over towards the white line and sometimes on the road.
What??? Sometimes you would be forced to ride a bike ON THE ROAD?

Seriously, why are you riding on the shoulder at all?

craig1985 said:
I had a near miss last year as I was riding home from work and I had to go down a bridge and there was a sharp right corner and to the side was a lot of gravel, and I had a tail wind so I was doing 40+km/h and provided there was no car behind me I could move into the middle of the lane and take the right hand corner on the drops and not need to brake. But on this time I was going down the bridge at speed and approaching the car (I didn't catch the car, he caught me) and decided to overtake me just before the sharp corner, so I braked to let him go, but I was forced onto the gravel bit which caused my tyres to slide, so I eased off the brakes to stop my rear wheel from locking up and going off road up and over a few bumps on grass and somehow avoided from going over my handlebars (this is a road bike) and when I found a smooth bit of grass I was able to slow down and stop. WAC. If the driver had let me go through the corner first it would of been fine and he would have lost perhaps 3 seconds. Now to be purely selfish I often (If I can) try to go through first because I know it is safer for me then to follow a car around.
An advanced traffic skill is learning what some refer to as "herding traffic". It's hard to explain, probably impossible, in writing, because it involves a combination of skills and knowing when to use which one. But basically what you're trying to do is establish control and to be accepted as the one who tells them when to pass, rather than they deciding when to pass. It involves using a mirror, reading traffic, learning how to use lateral position to convey control and confidence, etc. In the end, it keeps people from trying to pass you when it's not safe to pass you. If you work on it, you can figure it out.
 
Ninety5rpm said:
I don't get it. What's preventing you from riding further away from the parked cars? Where would you ride a motorcycle on that street? Why not ride there?


What??? Sometimes you would be forced to ride a bike ON THE ROAD?

Seriously, why are you riding on the shoulder at all?


An advanced traffic skill is learning what some refer to as "herding traffic". It's hard to explain, probably impossible, in writing, because it involves a combination of skills and knowing when to use which one. But basically what you're trying to do is establish control and to be accepted as the one who tells them when to pass, rather than they deciding when to pass. It involves using a mirror, reading traffic, learning how to use lateral position to convey control and confidence, etc. In the end, it keeps people from trying to pass you when it's not safe to pass you. If you work on it, you can figure it out.

95 you are correct. you have to get your b--t where motorists can see it and you have to look like you know what you are doing. and letting the
motorists know what you are doing is good for both of you. stay out of the gutter and out of the door zone. and be nice as much as you can. no middle finger salutes.
and why is b--t filtered? come on.:cool: