Crazy Motorists

[Rupert]

Relationships

It happens, but, again, you can seriously reduce how often that happens by establishing a relationship with each driver. The goal is to convey to them that you know what you are doing, and instill confidence in them - that you are in control and will let them know when it's safe to pass. This has to happen long before they are already in the adjacent lane passing you, and can only occur with prudent and effective use of a rearview mirror.

I agree, but the kind of drivers who scare me most don't respond to this sort of thing.... They are the ones who don't even hesitate, just zoom around regardless of the situation. Testosterone overdose. Same "body language" thing often applies, often I see them coming and have a good idea which drivers are going to be aggressive. Often my reaction is to take the lane earlier and more aggressively than I normally would, but the bad ones don't care. There is not a lot of relationship building going on with these kind of drivers. There are only a few of those around but you always have to be prepared...

"your mileage may vary?"

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Not sure what YMMV means but... Personally I try to do everything I can to maximize my chances, not screw up too often (I will sometimes no matter what), pay attention, and hope for good Karma... I flew in fighter airplanes for many years and cannot remember ever thinking I was about to die, even in an inherently dangerous environment. Maybe I just blocked those memories, but probably not. I cannot chalk it up entirely to skill - there is also a certain amount of luck involved. But if you think ahead and be reasonably careful there are less chances for bad luck (or bad drivers) to kill you. I try to apply the same thinking to cycling and so far it's worked. Unfortunately some things are beyond my control. However, if I didn't think my chances were good I wouldn't be out on the road at all.

YMMV = your mileage may vary

The way I look at it is there stuff I can control and stuff I can't. The stuff I can't is irrelevant because... it's out of my control. But I really believe there is no clear dividing line; that it's a spectrum. And whether one has control in a given marginal situation often may depend on whether they are confident in having that control. Whether a given situation is one in which you really have no control is unknown, so you might as well believe you do have control, because that alone will improve your odds (if you are resigned to not having control, you definitely lose).

I did crash recently (first time since I was a kid and I'm almost 50). I could blame it on the cyclists who fell right in front of me and left me with no where to go. However, I choose to see it as a failure on my part for not looking ahead and anticipating what was going to happen, and avoiding it.

 

[Rupert]

Crash

I did crash recently (first time since I was a kid and I'm almost 50). I could blame it on the cyclists who fell right in front of me and left me with no where to go. However, I choose to see it as a failure on my part for not looking ahead and anticipating what was going to happen, and avoiding it.

I've had one multi-bike pileup in my life and I can't honestly say I could have avoided it, unless I just avoided riding in a bunch entirely. I try hard to watch the riders ahead and avoid being behind squirelly people or trapped in the middle but it's not always possible. I do ride in large groups and in "racing" situations al lot less than I used to. Have a lot more control over the situation riding alone or in small groups than when in a pack...

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I agree, but the kind of drivers who scare me most don't respond to this sort of thing.... They are the ones who don't even hesitate, just zoom around regardless of the situation. Testosterone overdose. Same "body language" thing often applies, often I see them coming and have a good idea which drivers are going to be aggressive. Often my reaction is to take the lane earlier and more aggressively than I normally would, but the bad ones don't care. There is not a lot of relationship building going on with these kind of drivers. There are only a few of those around but you always have to be prepared...

"your mileage may vary?"

I don't understand. If we're talking about straight/flat two narrow lanes roads with good sight lines like Mission, then there are two relevant possibilities: There is oncoming traffic that prevents passing, or not.

If there is no oncoming traffic, then while I do take the lane to improve my vantage and conspicuousness with respect to potential cross traffic in front of me, and to get the attention of those approaching from behind early, I do move aside to facilitate the safe passing of me before they reach me. So if the driver is aggressive or not, it doesn't matter.

If there is oncoming traffic, then I maintain my position controlling the lane, and any drivers behind me, have no choice but to slow down to my speed, or run me over. I do use body language in these situations, as necessary, including slow/stop left arm signal, and looking back at them. In theory if they don't slow down I can ditch, but I've never come even close to having to do that. Once the oncoming traffic is clear, I move aside and let them pass.

It's similar on roads with limited sight lines (due to curves or hills), though there sometimes I have to be a bit more assertive to keep them from trying to pass when the sight lines are too short by riding even further left than lane center. You really have to clearly take control. Being wishy washy about it is not the thing to do.

Here's a pretty good video that more or less approximates what I'm talking about, though I don't agree about keeping right on the uphill. I stay lane-center there too, and only move aside as needed to allow motorists to pass, when safe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKSVwhLMjBk

 

[Rupert]

video, etc

I didn't look yet but I'm guessing the video is one I've seen, shot in California, and it was very good. And what I can do riding alone, using my mirror, is a bit different than what I can do in a large group that's already very visible and riding safely (the folks who got hit on Saturday). Also what I do on a narrow straight, level road is a lot different than riding up or down hill. So much of it is situational, which is why I really dislike the way some people grab onto something like "always ride on the white line" and turn off their brain. As in political science and fighter tactics the only correct answer is "it all depends."

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I didn't look yet but I'm guessing the video is one I've seen, shot in California, and it was very good. And what I can do riding alone, using my mirror, is a bit different than what I can do in a large group that's already very visible and riding safely (the folks who got hit on Saturday). Also what I do on a narrow straight, level road is a lot different than riding up or down hill. So much of it is situational, which is why I really dislike the way some people grab onto something like "always ride on the white line" and turn off their brain. As in political science and fighter tactics the only correct answer is "it all depends."

This stuff is hard to communicate about in written words (quite a bit easier in person when you can wave your hands, make facial expressions and use body language in addition to using words), but I think we're pretty much on the same page.

I certainly agree that riding solo and in a group is different, and, really, there are situational differences. However, it's not quite the blank slate each time that many make it out to be, either. There are certain practices that do have applications in many situations.

As to the group, I don't disagree that they are more visible than a solo rider, but I've seen and ridden in rotating pacelines, and the natural tendency is to ride near the shoulder stripe, leaving, apparently, the remainder of the lane for overtaking. That definitely seems like the natural and considerate thing to do. However, if an inattentive driver comes along, he or she might incorrectly think there is enough room to pass until it's too late to correct. What is very revealing about the story is that the person telling it was surprised by the driver's behavior. To me, it's no more surprising than a driver running a red light. It's not supposed to happen, but it does from time to time. Ride accordingly.

Anyway, that's why I much prefer to have the group ride out in the lane, making it absolutely clear that moving across the center line is necessary to pass (even to an inattentive driver), and, when a car is behind, can't pass, and it's safe to do so, to move aside, temporarily, after someone yells "car back", and then move right back after the car has passed. More importantly, riding in this manner makes the group (or solo rider for that matter) less likely to be overlooked by oncoming/left-turning traffic too, as was the case in the Tour de Tucson example you posted, or to be passed and right hooked, or overlooked and hit from entering or crossing traffic on the right or left, which are all much more common and likely crash scenarios.

 

[Rupert]

El Tour

... I think we're pretty much on the same page.
...More importantly, riding in this manner makes the group (or solo rider for that matter) less likely to be overlooked by oncoming/left-turning traffic too, as was the case in the Tour de Tucson example you posted, or to be passed and right hooked, or overlooked and hit from entering or crossing traffic on the right or left, which are all much more common and likely crash scenarios.

There are some complicating factors in the El Tour incident, and I am not sure of all the facts. But of what I've read there is at least a strong possibility that the driver was confused by signals from the (weekend warrior?) policeman directing traffic, which could be a mitigating circumstance for the driver. Not sure of that at all, but I read everything I could find about it last Fall and I think there were some factors like that operating. Probably the biggest factor was the driver's age and cognitive abilities... Don't know if the riders were in a single/double line or whatever but very possibly they were strung out. That part of the route is slightly downhill and they were probably smoking along pretty fast, and feeling more secure than we would normally since there is some level of traffic control on the El Tour route. Generally if you're one of the earlier groups on the road they stop traffic for you. Although it is totally necessary to watch intersections carefully and not be complacent on that score. The whole thing was pretty horrible, one of the riders will never be the same, and the driver left the scene and tried to hide evidence before contacting his lawyer and eventually coming forward.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I've had one multi-bike pileup in my life and I can't honestly say I could have avoided it, unless I just avoided riding in a bunch entirely. I try hard to watch the riders ahead and avoid being behind squirelly people or trapped in the middle but it's not always possible. I do ride in large groups and in "racing" situations al lot less than I used to. Have a lot more control over the situation riding alone or in small groups than when in a pack...

There is no doubt that riding in groups means a higher risk of encountering a situation in which a crash is unavoidable than riding solo. That's an additional risk anyone riding in groups chooses to assume. That said, there is a lot of room for control. In my case, the leaders adjust late for an obstruction, those following weren't looking ahead, and ended up hitting it and falling right in front of me. Had I been looking ahead I would have noticed the obstruction, realized the need to adjust, and adjust accordingly. But if the cause is something much less predictable, like two guys touching wheels a few places in front of you, yeah, there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[craig1985]

Went out for a ride today and as I left my place and went up a crest of a hill (its nothing really) and going down the other side of the hill (it is not that steep or fast, I was doing 31km/h), and I decided to reach down with my right hand to tighten up my cycling shoes, and despite being in the bicycle lane and about 8 inches in from the white lane, some person in their car which is passing me, decides to honk their horn at me. Bizarre, despite the fact that neither one of us was going to hit other.

I guess the driver thought I might have moved over as a I tightening my shoes up, but in reality there was enough room for both us.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Went out for a ride today and as I left my place and went up a crest of a hill (its nothing really) and going down the other side of the hill (it is not that steep or fast, I was doing 31km/h), and I decided to reach down with my right hand to tighten up my cycling shoes, and despite being in the bicycle lane and about 8 inches in from the white lane, some person in their car which is passing me, decides to honk their horn at me. Bizarre, despite the fact that neither one of us was going to hit other.

I guess the driver thought I might have moved over as a I tightening my shoes up, but in reality there was enough room for both us.

It could be a coincidence that they honked right after you took your hand off the bars, but probably not.

Often removing one hand from the bars can cause an unnoticed and inadvertent steer and maybe even swerve, especially if you're looking down at your shoe when you do that.

Similar thing often happens in groups when guys reach down for a water bottle. They get yelled at and have no idea that they swerved.

 

[usedtobefast]

Went out for a ride today and as I left my place and went up a crest of a hill (its nothing really) and going down the other side of the hill (it is not that steep or fast, I was doing 31km/h), and I decided to reach down with my right hand to tighten up my cycling shoes, and despite being in the bicycle lane and about 8 inches in from the white lane, some person in their car which is passing me, decides to honk their horn at me. Bizarre, despite the fact that neither one of us was going to hit other.

I guess the driver thought I might have moved over as a I tightening my shoes up, but in reality there was enough room for both us.

not shortage of aholes either.

 

[biker9]

road rage and airbagged armour

It is getting worse on the roads here in melbourne too.ever siince the "hell-ride" pedestrian death we cyclists are public enemy no one.any chance to upset your ride is fair game.even to the extent that riders now can be busted for anything that you can be if you were in a damned car.how many cars kill?

 

[Andy99]

http://twitter.com/bradwiggins

http://bit.ly/1I1iBD

http://is.gd/3gqit

http://twitter.com/mcewenrobbie

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/artic...ks-up-a-storm-with-anti-cycling-remarks-23188

 

[biker9]

It seems every one on abike is asking what is wrong these drivers behaiviour,just last night i had something thrown at me from a moving vehicle.seems to me they just don't realise the damage they could do by such action.maybe next time someone gets stupid and you get to say something to them ,ask them about their families and what their families would be feeling if the shoe was on the other foot.road rage sucks.

 

[Cobber]

I agree that many drivers are completely disrespectful of cyclists. However, there is already an extensive thread on this subject: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=2596

Also, fyi, there is a thread in the Professional Road Racing section with information for new posters. http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=2824

A good tip is to use the search function at the top of the forum to search for existing threads on a certain topic.

 

[David Suro]

More than 99% of motorists are very respectful to cyclists and make efforts to ensure our safety. It is a shame that it only takes 1% of motorists being dangerous, rude, or threatening to make the risks of road riding quite severe.

Whenever I am stopped at a traffic light and have a chance to speak with a motorist, I thank them for being respectful in the hopes that 'courtesy is contadeous'.

When I was younger and a car came too close, I used to show them my middle finger or chew them out if I had the chance at a traffic stop. I realize that is the brashness of youth. Now, if I have the chance, I explain the risks of their behavior to them at a stop and ask that they give a little more space.

The conflicts between cars and bikes will always exist. As cyclists, we can do our part to minimize incidents by behaving as politely as possible, following the rules of traffic law, and selecting our routes to avoid the busiest roads when possible.

 

[flicker]

In addition

Ride inside traffic laws,ride assertively and wear bright colors lights etc.

 

[Rupert]

Open Season on Cyclists

http://www.gvnews.com/articles/2009/09/ ... ist916.txt[/URL]

Negligent drivers rarely face significant penalties (around here). The guy who drove into the bike lane and killed a man received 2 traffic citations, and that's more than the usual. Disgusting.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

http://www.gvnews.com/articles/2009/09/15/breaking_news/00cyclist916.txt[/URL]

Negligent drivers rarely face significant penalties (around here). The guy who drove into the bike lane and killed a man received 2 traffic citations, and that's more than the usual. Disgusting.

No driver can pay attention to everyone all of the time.
All drivers are not paying attention at least some of the time.
Riding accordingly. If you can't - if you must rely on all drivers paying attention all the time - then you should not be riding on the road.

Bike lanes are no protection from inattentive drivers. Inattentive drivers don't notice bicyclists in bike lanes. Inattentive drivers sometimes drift into bike lanes. When there happens to be a bicyclist there, tragedy results.

The only way to "fix" this is to change human nature. That's not happening.

 

[Rupert]

Responsibility, again, still.

No driver can pay attention to everyone all of the time.
QUOTE]
True

All drivers are not paying attention at least some of the time.
QUOTE]
True

Ride accordingly.
QUOTE]
True

But drivers who kill / hurt people because they can't / don't pay attention while driving should be removed from the road. Driving is not a right, it is (should be anyway) a privilege.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

No driver can pay attention to everyone all of the time.

True

All drivers are not paying attention at least some of the time.

True

Ride accordingly.

True

But drivers who kill / hurt people because they can't / don't pay attention while driving should be removed from the road. Driving is not a right, it is (should be anyway) a privilege.

Removing drivers who do something clearly wrong and out of the norm is one thing, and I support that. Catch someone driving drunk, or texting and driving, then remove them (whether they hit anyone or not, preferably before they do).

Removing drivers who do something that almost everyone does from time to time without incident, but they happened to get unlucky (and their victim much less lucky), would be just as ineffective and pointless as removing drivers selected at random.

 

[Rupert]

agree

I agree that we will never agree on this.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I agree that we will never agree on this.

Let me ask you this.

If 12 guys sit down to play a game of Russian Roulette, is the guy whose turn it was right before the fatal one any more guilty than the others, just because he happened to be the one who handed the gun to the victim? Is it fair, just or practical to penalize him more than the others?

Why is that any different from drivers? If all drivers inadvertently drift into bike lanes from time to time, and all drivers don't notice bicyclists in bike lanes from to time, is the one driver who happened to a) not notice a cyclist in the bike lane (like all drivers do from time to time) and simultaneously happen to b) drift into the bike lane momentarily (like all drivers do from to time) any more guilty of doing anything wrong than all the other drivers? Everyone does (a) and (b), he just happened to do both at the same time. Can you really fault him more than other drivers? Is it fair, just or practical to penalize him more than others?

I know you don't agree, but I'm surmising that you're not thinking this all the way through, and you might be avoiding answering these questions because at some level you realize they would force you to think through your position a little deeper, and you don't want to do that.

 

[elapid]

Let me ask you this.

If 12 guys sit down to play a game of Russian Roulette, is the guy whose turn it was right before the fatal one any more guilty than the others, just because he happened to be the one who handed the gun to the victim? Is it fair, just or practical to penalize him more than the others?

Why is that any different from drivers? If all drivers inadvertently drift into bike lanes from time to time, and all drivers don't notice bicyclists in bike lanes from to time, is the one driver who happened to a) not notice a cyclist in the bike lane (like all drivers do from time to time) and simultaneously happen to b) drift into the bike lane momentarily (like all drivers do from to time) any more guilty of doing anything wrong than all the other drivers? Everyone does (a) and (b), he just happened to do both at the same time. Can you really fault him more than other drivers? Is it fair, just or practical to penalize him more than others?

I know you don't agree, but I'm surmising that you're not thinking this all the way through, and you might be avoiding answering these questions because at some level you realize they would force you to think through your position a little deeper, and you don't want to do that.

Sorry, but have to agree with Rupert. If a driver happens to drift into a bike lane and does not notice a bike in the bike lane, yes that driver should be penalized (and more than just a fine). With your approach you're reducing the guilty driver to someone that has no responsibility or will bear no consequences for their actions because of the collective behaviour of all drivers. It is irrelevant how many drivers drift into a bike lane or don't see a bike and get away with it. It does not lessen the severity of the incident, the degree of guilt, or the culpability of the driver.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Sorry, but have to agree with Rupert. If a driver happens to drift into a bike lane and does not notice a bike in the bike lane, yes that driver should be penalized (and more than just a fine). With your approach you're reducing the guilty driver to someone that has no responsibility or will bear no consequences for their actions because of the collective behaviour of all drivers. It is irrelevant how many drivers drift into a bike lane or don't see a bike and get away with it. It does not lessen the severity of the incident, the degree of guilt, or the culpability of the driver.

I'm not saying the driver who hits a cyclist has no responsibility. I'm just questioning the fairness of "removing" such a driver.

You say it is irrelevant how many drivers drift into a bike lane or don't see a bike and get away with it. Irrelevant to what? Irrelevant to whether removing such a driver is justified?

The is issue here is what is fair and just. I assume we can agree that is unfair and unjust to randomly pick someone's name and address out of a hat, and penalize them. Yes?

Now let's fill the that with only names of people who, from time to time, drift into bike lanes and sometimes don't take notice of bicyclists they pass that are in bike lanes. Well, that's essentially the same names as before.

Now, let's randomly pick one of those and penalize him. How is that any different, in terms of fairness and what is just, from picking the one to penalize by whoever happens to do both (drift into an unnoticed bicyclist in the bike lane) at the same time?

It makes sense to remove drivers who are clearly doing something outside of the norm. It make sense to penalize drivers who do something wrong but which is within the norm, and happens to hurt or even kill someone else. It makes no sense, to me, to remove a driver like that. To what end? Do you think someone is going to hear from a friend of a friend about the guy who lost his license for hitting and killing someone in a bike lane, and so will suddenly and magically start paying more attention for the rest of his life, and make sure he never drifts into a bike lane, and tries to never overlook a harmless and irrelevant cyclist he is passing? You're dreaming.