Cricket- the sport not the insect

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You just listed several batsman who aren't fit to clean the boots of guys who never got near the team 10 years ago. The drop in standard is amazing - not sure if any Aussies can explain; has there been a big drop in participation?

I'd have more respect for their pace bowling if they weren't still picking Johnson and Siddle.
 
May 27, 2010
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Waterloo Sunrise said:
You just listed several batsman who aren't fit to clean the boots of guys who never got near the team 10 years ago. The drop in standard is amazing - not sure if any Aussies can explain; has there been a big drop in participation?

I'd have more respect for their pace bowling if they weren't still picking Johnson and Siddle.

Those batman are still pretty good, you can't compare this australian team to the likes of the days of hayden, gilchrist, ponting, symonds. They were in a totally different league.

Are you serious peter siddle is one of the best test bowlers in the world.
Johnson is inconsistent but on his day he is a deadly bowler as shown in the recent test.
plus johnson is exceptional with the bat.
 
Pretty good is really stretching it.

Clarke is world class at home, merely very good away from home.
Cowen is a dull journey man
Warner is a poor man's Chris Gayle, and Chris Gayle is a flat track bully without the ability to be a top class Test player.
Watson flatters to deceive.
Wade, it's too early to make any strong judgement, positive or negative.

Clarke aside, the rest would have struggled to make the 2nd XI 10 years back. England will have to play pretty poorly to let this lot score any more than India did when they last toured England.
 
May 27, 2010
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Waterloo Sunrise said:
Pretty good is really stretching it.

Clarke is world class at home, merely very good away from home.
Cowen is a dull journey man
Warner is a poor man's Chris Gayle, and Chris Gayle is a flat track bully without the ability to be a top class Test player.
Watson flatters to deceive.
Wade, it's too early to make any strong judgement, positive or negative.

Clarke aside, the rest would have struggled to make the 2nd XI 10 years back. England will have to play pretty poorly to let this lot score any more than India did when they last toured England.

Lol you gotta be kidding me australia can surely out perform india in england.
Their batsman are much more able to handle the tracks in england.
England aren't as godly as you make them sound to be.
The ashes will be a close fight.
 
I didn't make England sound remotely 'godly'. I merely noted the Australia team is very weak, historically and absolutely, with a severe shortage of class in the batting line up, their captain aside. And even their captain still needs to show he isn't as flakey as he was - I just looked up and he only averages 41 away from home, with is really not that sharp at all.

I have full faith in the ability of England to find a way to lose if the mood takes them, but I have very little fear of them being forced in to it by strong play from Australia.
 
Oct 21, 2012
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Clarke is a better batsman than Cook, away average be damned.

All we need are a couple of 50s here and there, and someone to stick around without necessarily scoring too many. Clarke can just keep scoring double hundreds.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Waterloo Sunrise said:
I didn't make England sound remotely 'godly'. I merely noted the Australia team is very weak, historically and absolutely, with a severe shortage of class in the batting line up, their captain aside. And even their captain still needs to show he isn't as flakey as he was - I just looked up and he only averages 41 away from home, with is really not that sharp at all.

I have full faith in the ability of England to find a way to lose if the mood takes them, but I have very little fear of them being forced in to it by strong play from Australia.

I agree. Clarke is batting very well although I am still sceptical about the rest of the batting lineup and I doubt Clarke will be able to score as many runs in more challenging conditions in England than the batter-friendly conditions in Australia. I also doubt that Australia's bowling attack is potent enough to take 20 wickets, even if they can get their best bowling attack on the field.
 
Waterloo Sunrise said:
I didn't make England sound remotely 'godly'. I merely noted the Australia team is very weak, historically and absolutely, with a severe shortage of class in the batting line up, their captain aside. And even their captain still needs to show he isn't as flakey as he was - I just looked up and he only averages 41 away from home, with is really not that sharp at all.

I have full faith in the ability of England to find a way to lose if the mood takes them, but I have very little fear of them being forced in to it by strong play from Australia.

Watson is frustrating to watch. How many times does he look comfortable reaching 60 or 70 then throws his wicket away with a stupid shot. Reminds me of Haddin. He has to improve his concentration and patience in tests but of course the number one problem with him is the injuries. Whenever he starts bowling again he gets injured. They might have to rethink playing him as an all rounder and just use him as a batsmen which would be a shame as he is a handy bowler in the right conditions. I think England were a better team a few seasons ago. We have to blood some young talent now especially bowlers. I still don't like Warner as an opener. Too bash happy. Cowan will do okay and is more of a steady player like Katich. I would put Watson back as an opener as well and drop Warner down the order. The bowling stocks look thin especially with all the injuries. They are talking about Marsh getting another shot. Possible, never thought I would see Hughes back in the team. We have the job ahead and can't keep relying on Clarke to his big scores.
 
Oct 21, 2012
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Waterloo Sunrise said:
Yep, middle order batsmen averaging 52 and unable to perform in foreign conditions are definately rarer and more valuable than opening batsmen averaging 49 who get it done everywhere and improve under pressure.

His average means nothing, because Clarke has only really come into his own in the last 18 months or so. He was at best a decent batsman for most of his career, therefore his average is far lower than what his current level of talent is.
Anyway, here are a few statistics:

Average vs. England 45.5
Average in England 46.1

I'm sure he'll bump those latter two up some distance by the end of the tour. If we call up David Hussey, who has an outstanding county cricket record, then all we really need is a century from both of those two and 30's and 40's from everybody else. As it is though, 46.1 in England is a very acceptable average, bearing in mind he hasn't played there in 4 years. Now that he's at the peak of his powers, I'm sure he'll hit 2 or possibly even 3 centuries this time around.
 
Oct 21, 2012
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Waterloo Sunrise said:
Yep, that's fair, we should probably look at more recent time frame, like that last 3 years -


http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

ooops.

In the last 18 months (which I already specified as his best period to date), he's only toured South Africa, West Indies and Sri Lanka. Yes, he didn't set the world on fire, but he's hardly had many chances to, having only played 16 innings since 2011 away from home (still managing 2 centuries and a handful of 50s). Plus in that West Indies series, he was carrying a back injury throughout so to do as well as he did is commendable. If you really doubt his credentials, what about him flaying the world's best bowling attack, who were coming off an absolute demolition of England at home, nearly 600 runs in just 2 innings? He also scored centuries against the same best bowling attack on the planet on their home turf, and against Sri Lanka in Colombo since 2011.

Cook may have been consistently better over his career, but right now, going off pure form, Clarke is the best batsman in the world. The debate can be settled once and for all after the tours of India and England. Also, moving beyond the world of numbers, Clarke can score at any pace, unlike tuktuk Cook. I'd rather have Clarke ahead of Cook in a situation where the opposition have racked 600 in the first innings and are bowling with 4 men around the bat, because he can reverse the pressure in an instant. Cook is only more useful when you're 3/30 chasing 600 on a worn wicket on day 5 with Anil Kumble operating, and lets face it, a situation like that will never happen in England and with the toothlessness of the Indian attack, won't happen over there either.
 
Yes, poor 1 paced Alistair Cook, I'm sure he wishes he could score a run a ball double century against Australia before they went rubbish...

http://www.espncricinfo.com/engvaus/engine/current/match/217971.html



Michael Clarke is a very very good player, but no amount of bizzare attempts to define his ability as only including the innings he plays well in will detract from the reality that it is much easier to be a great middle order batsman than a great opener. Averaging around 50 opening the batting is an historically rare achievement, whilst similar runs in the middle order are much more common. Nearly every side has a top middle order batsman with a record as good or better than Clarke's. Very few have an opener with Cook's record, and even fewer have a player who really turns up when the side most needs it.
 
Oct 21, 2012
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No, of course it isn't- which is why the plan should be everybody else gets 30s and 40s, one person makes a bigger score and Clarke makes 100+. Of course it's unsustainable and with an approach like that we'll lose 2 or 3-1, but right now it really is the best we have to offer.

Anyway, we're not as fragile as India or Sri Lanka might be. We don't go all to pieces at the first sign of lateral movement or bounce as those two batting orders have done in recent years, so an England walkover over our batting order isn't a given. I think reports of "6 Australian walking wickets plus Clarke" are a bit exaggerated. Yes, they aren't a patch on our predecessors, but the only genuinely weak players in there are Watson and Hughes. The rest of the top 7 at the least can perform on occasion. I'll try to make an objective analysis of our likely top 7:

Cowan- occupies the crease fairly well, but rarely scores above 50. He can protect the middle order reasonably well from the new ball, but not from scoreboard pressure.
Warner- a proper batsman, not just a T20 wonderkid. But he has his Sehwag moments. The bottom line is he's talented and will definitely improve, but right now he's hit-and-miss.
Hughes- Lol.
Watson- Adds 'balance' to the side, but is totally unecessary. Drop him for a specialist bowler or batsman, because he doesn't offer nearly enough in either discipline. Spells of 2/50 and brisk 40s are pretty much the zenith of his talents.
Clarke- The best batsman, by some distance, in the line up, and in brilliant form as well. I expect him to do really well in England, but there may be problems with support.
D. Hussey- He has a great first class record, and also an exceptional record in England, but he's never played test cricket so who knows? Based on his ODI performances, he certainly has a sound head on him and has bags of experience, so I'm leaning towards the position that he'll be a reasonably good addition, but still not quite taking the place of his brother.
Wade- A real step up from Haddin, but he's not a top class batsman. Decent and effective, but not someone you really want to be relying too much.

While I'm at it, I may as well do the bowlers:
Starc/Cummins/Pattinson/Whoever's fit- Each have their own strengths and weaknesses. They're all handy with the bat, but with the ball, Cummins is the most complete. Pattinson can occasionally be indisciplined, and Starc is very much in the Mitchell Johnson mould. Starc excels when there's swing to be had, as he pitches the ball up, but if there's no swing then they are just treated as half-volleys. Their common problems are staying fit and lack of experience, both playing in England and playing against top batsmen. Pattinson, for instance, has only really played well against India's declining batsmen and New Zealand's poor batsmen.
Johnson- Ouch. He has a reputation in England of being rubbish, which isn't all that far from the truth, but he can on occasion do a reasonable job. I'd still be happier if he were left out of the squad, though.
Lyon- Not really all that good, picks up most of his wickets from mistimed slogs. But at least he keeps it tight. And, on the plus side, we don't necessarily need a world class spinner to succeed in England.
Siddle- A good bowler, who's hardworking, reliable and economical. He's nothing special, but he gets the job done with a minimum of fuss. While landing the ball outside off stump on a good length may be unspectacular, it gets results.
 
Alphabet said:
No, of course it isn't- which is why the plan should be everybody else gets 30s and 40s, one person makes a bigger score and Clarke makes 100+. Of course it's unsustainable and with an approach like that we'll lose 2 or 3-1, but right now it really is the best we have to offer.

Anyway, we're not as fragile as India or Sri Lanka might be. We don't go all to pieces at the first sign of lateral movement or bounce as those two batting orders have done in recent years, so an England walkover over our batting order isn't a given. I think reports of "6 Australian walking wickets plus Clarke" are a bit exaggerated. Yes, they aren't a patch on our predecessors, but the only genuinely weak players in there are Watson and Hughes. The rest of the top 7 at the least can perform on occasion. I'll try to make an objective analysis of our likely top 7:

Cowan- occupies the crease fairly well, but rarely scores above 50. He can protect the middle order reasonably well from the new ball, but not from scoreboard pressure.
Warner- a proper batsman, not just a T20 wonderkid. But he has his Sehwag moments. The bottom line is he's talented and will definitely improve, but right now he's hit-and-miss.
Hughes- Lol.
Watson- Adds 'balance' to the side, but is totally unecessary. Drop him for a specialist bowler or batsman, because he doesn't offer nearly enough in either discipline. Spells of 2/50 and brisk 40s are pretty much the zenith of his talents.
Clarke- The best batsman, by some distance, in the line up, and in brilliant form as well. I expect him to do really well in England, but there may be problems with support.
D. Hussey- He has a great first class record, and also an exceptional record in England, but he's never played test cricket so who knows? Based on his ODI performances, he certainly has a sound head on him and has bags of experience, so I'm leaning towards the position that he'll be a reasonably good addition, but still not quite taking the place of his brother.
Wade- A real step up from Haddin, but he's not a top class batsman. Decent and effective, but not someone you really want to be relying too much.

While I'm at it, I may as well do the bowlers:
Starc/Cummins/Pattinson/Whoever's fit- Each have their own strengths and weaknesses. They're all handy with the bat, but with the ball, Cummins is the most complete. Pattinson can occasionally be indisciplined, and Starc is very much in the Mitchell Johnson mould. Starc excels when there's swing to be had, as he pitches the ball up, but if there's no swing then they are just treated as half-volleys. Their common problems are staying fit and lack of experience, both playing in England and playing against top batsmen. Pattinson, for instance, has only really played well against India's declining batsmen and New Zealand's poor batsmen.
Johnson- Ouch. He has a reputation in England of being rubbish, which isn't all that far from the truth, but he can on occasion do a reasonable job. I'd still be happier if he were left out of the squad, though.
Lyon- Not really all that good, picks up most of his wickets from mistimed slogs. But at least he keeps it tight. And, on the plus side, we don't necessarily need a world class spinner to succeed in England.
Siddle- A good bowler, who's hardworking, reliable and economical. He's nothing special, but he gets the job done with a minimum of fuss. While landing the ball outside off stump on a good length may be unspectacular, it gets results.

Cummins is the one Australia misses the most. Lyon has improved but do we have anyone else as good or better. The others they tried like Doherty, not sure whether they are up to it. Johnson has improved recently but needed to improve a lot. Not sure if Australia will risk him in an Ashes Series unless injuries leave them no choice. Siddle is an honest workhorse and Hilfenhaus is good on a suitable pitch but not much variation in his bowling. Starc is a good one day bowler and bowls well to the lower order. He needs to improve.
 
Oct 21, 2012
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The best way to approach it would be to go in expecting to compete (and playing competitively) rather than win 5-0, exposing our youngsters to English conditions and more top class cricketers, with an aim of making a serious attempt at winning them back in the home series, and building a platform to progress on next time we tour.

If we acquit ourselves well and don't get smashed, then I'll be quite pleased, even if that means a series defeat. We're still a team in transition, whereas they're more or less at their peak.
 
Jan 8, 2012
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This is horrible but maybe NZC can learn a lesson, you need to act mature and take care of your greatest player.
 
Jan 8, 2012
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Alphabet said:
Oh dear, N.Z. 10 wickets lost in 116 balls is terrible.

Hopefully the team against England will be.

Guptill
Fulton
Williamson
Taylor
Ryder
McCullum
Watling
Vettori
Southee
Bracewell
Boult

In that order, McCullum hasn't been a good opener lately and his hitting can benefit from a move down the order. Even if this game has been terrible there are som good young pacemen from NZ.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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the asian said:
Good innings by Thirimanne. Finally given the chance to bat in the middle order in tests and he delivers!

Sri Lanka quite well today, considering their injuries. Their big test will be how they respond tomorrow when bowling against the Australians.
 
Oct 21, 2012
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the asian said:
Good innings by Thirimanne. Finally given the chance to bat in the middle order in tests and he delivers!

I was at the SCG today :D. But I was more impressed with Mathews (and of course Jayawardene) than Thirimanne, because those two were composed throughout their entire innings, looked completely in control and it was a real surprise when the two of them got out. For me, it was only a matter of time for Thirimanne to get out. He looked really uncomfortable for a long time, until he crossed 50, especially against Lyon.

In his defence, Thirimanne did play some cracking stokes though. Loved the pull-shot four from Johnson. Jayawardene was also brilliant today, I was genuinely sad that he couldn't complete a century, and also a but relieved that we'd gotten him out for 72 and not 272.