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Yes please, he also annoys the crap out of me, but Di Data is such a horrible team that they probably will select him anywaystobydawq said:Cummings DNF'ed today. Could we be so lucky that we don't have to look at him sitting at the rear-most position of the bunch for 21 days in a row this summer?
Valv.Piti said:Yes please, he also annoys the crap out of me, but Di Data is such a horrible team that they probably will select him anywaystobydawq said:Cummings DNF'ed today. Could we be so lucky that we don't have to look at him sitting at the rear-most position of the bunch for 21 days in a row this summer?
tobydawq said:Valv.Piti said:Yes please, he also annoys the crap out of me, but Di Data is such a horrible team that they probably will select him anywaystobydawq said:Cummings DNF'ed today. Could we be so lucky that we don't have to look at him sitting at the rear-most position of the bunch for 21 days in a row this summer?
The worst part is that he has all the physical skills to be of great help for Cavendish in the finales of the flat stages. But will he lift a finger for anyone? Nope.
And commentators are still praising him because he had a good first half of 2016 (which, to be honest, was pretty amazing) even though he hasn't shown anything since (excpe the British championships last year).
Zinoviev Letter said:Geraint Thomas is 32 and has participated in 12 (twelve) Grand Tours, never finishing higher than 15th (fifteenth). Predicting that he will win the Tour because he’s about as strong as Dan Martin and slightly stronger than Bardet in a week long race a month earlier is like a less sane version of Porte hype. It’s about as reasonable as hyping Poels to win it.
Maybe I should have worded it differently. I don't think Thomas' crash was the only reason for his downfall. He was also struggling on the stage to Mende a few days before, and it's not like he had experience with performing in GC in the last week of a GT. It would haven been a minor miracle if Thomas had managed a top 5 in that Tour, crash or not.rlntlssly said:Cance > TheRest said:Also, i don't buy the idea that the crash on Col de Manse had anything to do with Thomas' downfall in the 2015 Tour. I just don't think he's a GT rider.
Strong reasoning.
Cance > TheRest said:Maybe I should have worded it differently. I don't think Thomas' crash was the only reason for his downfall. He was also struggling on the stage to Mende a few days before, and it's not like he had experience with performing in GC in the last week of a GT. It would haven been a minor miracle if Thomas had managed a top 5 in that Tour, crash or not.rlntlssly said:Cance > TheRest said:Also, i don't buy the idea that the crash on Col de Manse had anything to do with Thomas' downfall in the 2015 Tour. I just don't think he's a GT rider.
Strong reasoning.
People made fun of Wiggins when he said he wants to win the tour. People only didn't make fun of Froome because he wasn't important enough to make fun of him and now people make fun of Thomas. If I have learned one thing in the last few years of watching cycling it's that I trust the evaluations of team sky. Sky thinks Thomas has what it takes to be a tour contender? Then you better believe it too.Zinoviev Letter said:Geraint Thomas is 32 and has participated in 12 (twelve) Grand Tours, never finishing higher than 15th (fifteenth). Predicting that he will win the Tour because he’s about as strong as Dan Martin and slightly stronger than Bardet in a week long race a month earlier is like a less sane version of Porte hype. It’s about as reasonable as hyping Poels to win it.
Gigs_98 said:People made fun of Wiggins when he said he wants to win the tour. People only didn't make fun of Froome because he wasn't important enough to make fun of him
tobydawq said:Zinoviev Letter said:Geraint Thomas is 32 and has participated in 12 (twelve) Grand Tours, never finishing higher than 15th (fifteenth). Predicting that he will win the Tour because he’s about as strong as Dan Martin and slightly stronger than Bardet in a week long race a month earlier is like a less sane version of Porte hype. It’s about as reasonable as hyping Poels to win it.
No, not really. He has always been a helper and at least two times has looked like a rider who would finish at or near the podium until a crash.
Plus Dan Martin and Bardet were the best climbers in last year's Tour so I don't really see your point as being a very strong one.
Zinoviev Letter said:Firstly, Thomas has not always been a helper. He has had more chances to ride for himself in GTs than most riders with better GT results ever get.
Secondly and more importantly, lots of guys have gone into GTs as helpers and even while doing that job have got good results themselves. That’s possible, even likely, if you are very good yourself. Thomas is not a kid, he’s not a beginner, there isn’t a small pool of GT results to draw conclusions from. He has participated in a dozen GTs. He has never got even close to a top 10.
As for Martin and Bardet, my point isn’t that they are bad, but that being on their level, or even slightly above Bardet’s one, in a prep race a month out from their target simply doesn’t tell us anything about his GT credentials. His actual GT credentials speak for themselves.
rlntlssly said:Zinoviev Letter said:Firstly, Thomas has not always been a helper. He has had more chances to ride for himself in GTs than most riders with better GT results ever get.
He's been the leader for one GT.
Secondly and more importantly, lots of guys have gone into GTs as helpers and even while doing that job have got good results themselves. That’s possible, even likely, if you are very good yourself. Thomas is not a kid, he’s not a beginner, there isn’t a small pool of GT results to draw conclusions from. He has participated in a dozen GTs. He has never got even close to a top 10.
He was 4th after 18 stages when riding for Froome. He was fading, perhaps, even before the nasty crash, but I'd call that "close to a top 10".
As for Martin and Bardet, my point isn’t that they are bad, but that being on their level, or even slightly above Bardet’s one, in a prep race a month out from their target simply doesn’t tell us anything about his GT credentials. His actual GT credentials speak for themselves.
So Martin and Bardet's form should be discounted, because they are a month out from their target, but Thomas's shouldn't be because reasons.
I don't think anyone is saying that Thomas is the favourite, just that he is relevant in terms of GC. That seems uncontroversial.
Zinoviev Letter said:No 15th, his best GT result, minutes outside the top 10, is not close to a top 10.
Bardet and Martin are experienced GT leaders who can be expected to be stronger at the Tour than at a prep race a month earlier. Thomas has occasionally got good results in week long races but has never got even one even semi good GT result in 12 GTs. Therefore it’s not nearly as obvious, based on the evidence provided by his own long career, that he will be better as a GC rider in a GT than in a week long race. He never has been before after all.
He climbed Beille faster than Armstrong's 2002 and same with Armstrong's 2004...Valv.Piti said:Thomas was done in the Tour that year, and I dare to say it had nothing to do with the crash. The 9 first days suited him well, so did the first MTF, he was strong on the headwind Beille-climb, but then ran out of gas. Because he didn't prepare 100%.
He is winning mountain stages now, or at least being the strongest guy. He didn't do that 3 years ago.
rlntlssly said:Zinoviev Letter said:No 15th, his best GT result, minutes outside the top 10, is not close to a top 10.
I am fairly certain that I didn't argue that.
Bardet and Martin are experienced GT leaders who can be expected to be stronger at the Tour than at a prep race a month earlier. Thomas has occasionally got good results in week long races but has never got even one even semi good GT result in 12 GTs. Therefore it’s not nearly as obvious, based on the evidence provided by his own long career, that he will be better as a GC rider in a GT than in a week long race. He never has been before after all.
I am fairly certain that I didn't argue that either.
Thomas's performance in the Dauphine bodes well for the Tour. It's a Tour that suits him very well, with cobbles, TTT and a reasonable length ITT. He has no significant results in GTs. He has given some strong performances. He has raced for a team where he has rarely had outright leadership. He is not an overall favourite. He might do well. #nuance
No what you are doing is ripping things out of context.Zinoviev Letter said:Gigs_98 said:People made fun of Wiggins when he said he wants to win the tour. People only didn't make fun of Froome because he wasn't important enough to make fun of him
Wiggins had two GT podiums before he won the Tour. Froome had two GT podiums and a fourth place before he won the Tour. Both made the Tour podium for the first time while in their 20s and both did so after riding many less GTs than Thomas has already done. These are two of the most notable late developers in the history of the sport, true outliers. Yet when they first won both had a GT track record not just better than Thomas has now but massively, incomparably better than Thomas has now.
Let’s put this in context. Wout Poels has a better GC record in GTs than Thomas. So does Phil Deignan. And Pello Bilbao. And Sam Oomen. And Patrick Konrad. And Andrey Amador. And Nico Roche. And Peter Velits. And Michael Woods. It’s not as if Thomas is a kid like Oomen or a late starter like Woods. He’s been a top pro for a decade. He’s 32. He has raced an enormous number of GTs.
If he actually wins the Tour it would be so outlandish an accomplishment that it would make talk of Froome or Wiggins transforming themselves completely laughable.
Gigs_98 said:No what you are doing is ripping things out of context.Zinoviev Letter said:Gigs_98 said:People made fun of Wiggins when he said he wants to win the tour. People only didn't make fun of Froome because he wasn't important enough to make fun of him
Wiggins had two GT podiums before he won the Tour. Froome had two GT podiums and a fourth place before he won the Tour. Both made the Tour podium for the first time while in their 20s and both did so after riding many less GTs than Thomas has already done. These are two of the most notable late developers in the history of the sport, true outliers. Yet when they first won both had a GT track record not just better than Thomas has now but massively, incomparably better than Thomas has now.
Let’s put this in context. Wout Poels has a better GC record in GTs than Thomas. So does Phil Deignan. And Pello Bilbao. And Sam Oomen. And Patrick Konrad. And Andrey Amador. And Nico Roche. And Peter Velits. And Michael Woods. It’s not as if Thomas is a kid like Oomen or a late starter like Woods. He’s been a top pro for a decade. He’s 32. He has raced an enormous number of GTs.
If he actually wins the Tour it would be so outlandish an accomplishment that it would make talk of Froome or Wiggins transforming themselves completely laughable.
Was Thomas's best gc result a 15th place? Yeah, but it came after being one of the strongest climbers of the race in some stages and only fading because he didn't prepare for the tdf as a gc rider. He never even expected to be any factor in the gc.
Also a transformation from already climbing extremely strong in 2015 to winning mountainous stage races in 2017 and potentially winning a gt in 2018 wouldn't be anywhere near as big as Froome transformation and about as big as Wiggins.