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Cummings DNF'ed today. Could we be so lucky that we don't have to look at him sitting at the rear-most position of the bunch for 21 days in a row this summer?
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Yes please, he also annoys the crap out of me, but Di Data is such a horrible team that they probably will select him anywaystobydawq said:
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The worst part is that he has all the physical skills to be of great help for Cavendish in the finales of the flat stages. But will he lift a finger for anyone? Nope.
And commentators are still praising him because he had a good first half of 2016 (which, to be honest, was pretty amazing) even though he hasn't shown anything since (excpe the British championships last year).
Valv.Piti said:
The worst part is that he has all the physical skills to be of great help for Cavendish in the finales of the flat stages. But will he lift a finger for anyone? Nope.
And commentators are still praising him because he had a good first half of 2016 (which, to be honest, was pretty amazing) even though he hasn't shown anything since (excpe the British championships last year).
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I think Rolf said the other day he also annoyed him, but generally, I agree..
Did you hear what Chris called the Japanese riders on Vini today?
tobydawq said:
I think Rolf said the other day he also annoyed him, but generally, I agree..
Did you hear what Chris called the Japanese riders on Vini today?
Yes, that wasn't particularly flattering 
He must have skipped a political correctness course some time. Perhaps he should take one together with Moscon.
He must have skipped a political correctness course some time. Perhaps he should take one together with Moscon.
Sunweb now fell out of the team classification, btw. Only Teunissen and Bauhaus are left in the race.
Geraint Thomas is 32 and has participated in 12 (twelve) Grand Tours, never finishing higher than 15th (fifteenth). Predicting that he will win the Tour because he’s about as strong as Dan Martin and slightly stronger than Bardet in a week long race a month earlier is like a less sane version of Porte hype. It’s about as reasonable as hyping Poels to win it.
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No, not really. He has always been a helper and at least two times has looked like a rider who would finish at or near the podium until a crash.
Plus Dan Martin and Bardet were the best climbers in last year's Tour so I don't really see your point as being a very strong one.
Zinoviev Letter said:
No, not really. He has always been a helper and at least two times has looked like a rider who would finish at or near the podium until a crash.
Plus Dan Martin and Bardet were the best climbers in last year's Tour so I don't really see your point as being a very strong one.
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Maybe I should have worded it differently. I don't think Thomas' crash was the only reason for his downfall. He was also struggling on the stage to Mende a few days before, and it's not like he had experience with performing in GC in the last week of a GT. It would haven been a minor miracle if Thomas had managed a top 5 in that Tour, crash or not.rlntlssly said:
I also don't think the crash was the majority of the reason. I seem to remember him saying that he was just waiting to see, when the lights would go off and hoping that would happen on the 22nd stage.
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Sure, it would have been monumentally impressive. But he was fourth on GC after 18 stages riding as a domestique. I don't see how that's not the kind of performance that would say "future GT podium rider". Especially in a year when he had two podiums in the classics and clearly wasn't fully committed to stage racing.
Cance > TheRest said:
Sure, it would have been monumentally impressive. But he was fourth on GC after 18 stages riding as a domestique. I don't see how that's not the kind of performance that would say "future GT podium rider". Especially in a year when he had two podiums in the classics and clearly wasn't fully committed to stage racing.
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What we know is that the peak physical abilities he has shown are most likely good enough to be a gt contender, that this tour route really suits him and that the only time he has ever started a gt as a leader he had to abandon due to a crash that wasn't his fault. Pretty much the only way why it might turn out Thomad won't ever be able to win gt's is if he isn't able to keep a good shape over three weeks and as we don't know that yet we just have to assume he is a gt contender. Otherwise you might as well say Bernal isn't a future gt contender
People made fun of Wiggins when he said he wants to win the tour. People only didn't make fun of Froome because he wasn't important enough to make fun of him and now people make fun of Thomas. If I have learned one thing in the last few years of watching cycling it's that I trust the evaluations of team sky. Sky thinks Thomas has what it takes to be a tour contender? Then you better believe it too.Zinoviev Letter said:
What we know is that the peak physical abilities he has shown are most likely good enough to be a gt contender, that this tour route really suits him and that the only time he has ever started a gt as a leader he had to abandon due to a crash that wasn't his fault. Pretty much the only way why it might turn out Thomad won't ever be able to win gt's is if he isn't able to keep a good shape over three weeks and as we don't know that yet we just have to assume he is a gt contender. Otherwise you might as well say Bernal isn't a future gt contender
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Wiggins had two GT podiums before he won the Tour. Froome had two GT podiums and a fourth place before he won the Tour. Both made the Tour podium for the first time while in their 20s and both did so after riding many less GTs than Thomas has already done. These are two of the most notable late developers in the history of the sport, true outliers. Yet when they first won both had a GT track record not just better than Thomas has now but massively, incomparably better than Thomas has now.
Let’s put this in context. Wout Poels has a better GC record in GTs than Thomas. So does Phil Deignan. And Pello Bilbao. And Sam Oomen. And Patrick Konrad. And Andrey Amador. And Nico Roche. And Peter Velits. And Michael Woods. It’s not as if Thomas is a kid like Oomen or a late starter like Woods. He’s been a top pro for a decade. He’s 32. He has raced an enormous number of GTs.
If he actually wins the Tour it would be so outlandish an accomplishment that it would make talk of Froome or Wiggins transforming themselves completely laughable.
Gigs_98 said:
Wiggins had two GT podiums before he won the Tour. Froome had two GT podiums and a fourth place before he won the Tour. Both made the Tour podium for the first time while in their 20s and both did so after riding many less GTs than Thomas has already done. These are two of the most notable late developers in the history of the sport, true outliers. Yet when they first won both had a GT track record not just better than Thomas has now but massively, incomparably better than Thomas has now.
Let’s put this in context. Wout Poels has a better GC record in GTs than Thomas. So does Phil Deignan. And Pello Bilbao. And Sam Oomen. And Patrick Konrad. And Andrey Amador. And Nico Roche. And Peter Velits. And Michael Woods. It’s not as if Thomas is a kid like Oomen or a late starter like Woods. He’s been a top pro for a decade. He’s 32. He has raced an enormous number of GTs.
If he actually wins the Tour it would be so outlandish an accomplishment that it would make talk of Froome or Wiggins transforming themselves completely laughable.
As a pure Sky Fan I will not talk about Skyborgs.
But if I would have to choose between Nibali's and Bardet's chances in TdF, there is no doubt, Nibali today's performance makes him more likely to be at podium at TdF than Bardet's.
But if I would have to choose between Nibali's and Bardet's chances in TdF, there is no doubt, Nibali today's performance makes him more likely to be at podium at TdF than Bardet's.
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Firstly, Thomas has not always been a helper. He has had more chances to ride for himself in GTs than most riders with better GT results ever get. Secondly and more importantly, lots of guys have gone into GTs as helpers and even while doing that job have got good results themselves. That’s possible, even likely, if you are very good yourself. Thomas is not a kid, he’s not a beginner, there isn’t a small pool of GT results to draw conclusions from. He has participated in a dozen GTs. He has never got even close to a top 10.
As for Martin and Bardet, my point isn’t that they are bad, but that being on their level, or even slightly above Bardet’s one, in a prep race a month out from their target simply doesn’t tell us anything about his GT credentials. His actual GT credentials speak for themselves.
tobydawq said:
Firstly, Thomas has not always been a helper. He has had more chances to ride for himself in GTs than most riders with better GT results ever get. Secondly and more importantly, lots of guys have gone into GTs as helpers and even while doing that job have got good results themselves. That’s possible, even likely, if you are very good yourself. Thomas is not a kid, he’s not a beginner, there isn’t a small pool of GT results to draw conclusions from. He has participated in a dozen GTs. He has never got even close to a top 10.
As for Martin and Bardet, my point isn’t that they are bad, but that being on their level, or even slightly above Bardet’s one, in a prep race a month out from their target simply doesn’t tell us anything about his GT credentials. His actual GT credentials speak for themselves.
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He's been the leader for one GT.
He was 4th after 18 stages when riding for Froome. He was fading, perhaps, even before the nasty crash, but I'd call that "close to a top 10".
So Martin and Bardet's form should be discounted, because they are a month out from their target, but Thomas's shouldn't be because reasons.
I don't think anyone is saying that Thomas is the favourite, just that he is relevant in terms of GC. That seems uncontroversial.
Zinoviev Letter said:
He's been the leader for one GT.
He was 4th after 18 stages when riding for Froome. He was fading, perhaps, even before the nasty crash, but I'd call that "close to a top 10".
So Martin and Bardet's form should be discounted, because they are a month out from their target, but Thomas's shouldn't be because reasons.
I don't think anyone is saying that Thomas is the favourite, just that he is relevant in terms of GC. That seems uncontroversial.
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He has been an outright leader. He’s been a semi protected back up option. He’s been a domestique. Over his twelve GTs he’s had just about every role. In none of them has he ever got a good or even decent GC result. Unlike many riders who have had much less in the way of chances.
No 15th, his best GT result, minutes outside the top 10, is not close to a top 10.
Bardet and Martin are experienced GT leaders who can be expected to be stronger at the Tour than at a prep race a month earlier. Thomas has occasionally got good results in week long races but has never got even one even semi good GT result in 12 GTs. Therefore it’s not nearly as obvious, based on the evidence provided by his own long career, that he will be better as a GC rider in a GT than in a week long race. He never has been before after all.
rlntlssly said:
He has been an outright leader. He’s been a semi protected back up option. He’s been a domestique. Over his twelve GTs he’s had just about every role. In none of them has he ever got a good or even decent GC result. Unlike many riders who have had much less in the way of chances.
No 15th, his best GT result, minutes outside the top 10, is not close to a top 10.
Bardet and Martin are experienced GT leaders who can be expected to be stronger at the Tour than at a prep race a month earlier. Thomas has occasionally got good results in week long races but has never got even one even semi good GT result in 12 GTs. Therefore it’s not nearly as obvious, based on the evidence provided by his own long career, that he will be better as a GC rider in a GT than in a week long race. He never has been before after all.
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I am fairly certain that I didn't argue that.
I am fairly certain that I didn't argue that either.
Thomas's performance in the Dauphine bodes well for the Tour. It's a Tour that suits him very well, with cobbles, TTT and a reasonable length ITT. He has no significant results in GTs. He has given some strong performances. He has raced for a team where he has rarely had outright leadership. He is not an overall favourite. He might do well. #nuance
Zinoviev Letter said:
I am fairly certain that I didn't argue that.
I am fairly certain that I didn't argue that either.
Thomas's performance in the Dauphine bodes well for the Tour. It's a Tour that suits him very well, with cobbles, TTT and a reasonable length ITT. He has no significant results in GTs. He has given some strong performances. He has raced for a team where he has rarely had outright leadership. He is not an overall favourite. He might do well. #nuance
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He climbed Beille faster than Armstrong's 2002 and same with Armstrong's 2004...Valv.Piti said:
Love the optimism here at all those "favorites" being smashed by some track guy. When Froome won his first few tours he was winning these silly stage races from January onward, but I guess for those 2nd rate riders you need to sleep in some altitude tent all season so you can shine for one day and get that top 5.
has anyone suggested thomas would win the tour? hello no, but he's clearly going to be in contention, and has a capacity to be in lets suppose in top 5 if lady luck gives a hand
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You argued that he once got close to a top 10, itself a pathetically low bar if we are talking about whether a rider is in contention to win the Tour. In fact he never got close to a top 10.
You argued that there was something unfair in assuming different things about the relevance of Martin and Bardet’s Tour prep form to their likely Tour GC results than about the relevance of Thomas week long race results to his likely GT GC results. Those different assumptions flow directly from their careers thus far.
rlntlssly said:
You argued that he once got close to a top 10, itself a pathetically low bar if we are talking about whether a rider is in contention to win the Tour. In fact he never got close to a top 10.
You argued that there was something unfair in assuming different things about the relevance of Martin and Bardet’s Tour prep form to their likely Tour GC results than about the relevance of Thomas week long race results to his likely GT GC results. Those different assumptions flow directly from their careers thus far.
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Was Thomas's best gc result a 15th place? Yeah, but it came after being one of the strongest climbers of the race in some stages and only fading because he didn't prepare for the tdf as a gc rider. He never even expected to be any factor in the gc.
Also a transformation from already climbing extremely strong in 2015 to winning mountainous stage races in 2017 and potentially winning a gt in 2018 wouldn't be anywhere near as big as Froome transformation and about as big as Wiggins.
No what you are doing is ripping things out of context.Zinoviev Letter said:
Was Thomas's best gc result a 15th place? Yeah, but it came after being one of the strongest climbers of the race in some stages and only fading because he didn't prepare for the tdf as a gc rider. He never even expected to be any factor in the gc.
Also a transformation from already climbing extremely strong in 2015 to winning mountainous stage races in 2017 and potentially winning a gt in 2018 wouldn't be anywhere near as big as Froome transformation and about as big as Wiggins.
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That’s not ripping anything out of context. Pointing out that Thomas has almost exactly as good a GT GC record as Rohan Dennis, who is four years younger than him is an important contextual point when people are talking about him as a Tour winner. Pointing out that there are thirty or forty riders in the peloton with better GT GC results than him, a 32 year old with a dozen GTs under his belt is crucial context. And most of those dozens of riders have also climbed “extremely strong” in some race at some point.
Wout Poels at his best is on a completely different climbing level to the likes of Thomas, but because he has shown no ability to string that form together nobody would dream of suggesting that he’s a Tour winner in waiting. But (a) his strongest is clearly stronger than Thomas and (b) even he, the Jeckyl and Hyde of climbers has actually managed to hold his form together well enough to get better GC results than Thomas. But Thomas is older and has had more attempts at GTs.
When Wiggins got his first Tour podium he was younger than Thomas in 2015, the year of his mythical 15th. So on what possible basis would winning the Tour a few years later, with another GT podium in between, represent more of a transformation than a 32 year old Thomas winning after never getting a podium and never getting a GT top 10 but once sort of looking good before finishing 15th?
Even Cobo and Horner had GT top 10s before they won. Froome was a mere child of 27 when he got his first podium. If Thomas wins the Tour this year it represents the single biggest transformation in a rider in the modern history of the sport.
Gigs_98 said:
That’s not ripping anything out of context. Pointing out that Thomas has almost exactly as good a GT GC record as Rohan Dennis, who is four years younger than him is an important contextual point when people are talking about him as a Tour winner. Pointing out that there are thirty or forty riders in the peloton with better GT GC results than him, a 32 year old with a dozen GTs under his belt is crucial context. And most of those dozens of riders have also climbed “extremely strong” in some race at some point.
Wout Poels at his best is on a completely different climbing level to the likes of Thomas, but because he has shown no ability to string that form together nobody would dream of suggesting that he’s a Tour winner in waiting. But (a) his strongest is clearly stronger than Thomas and (b) even he, the Jeckyl and Hyde of climbers has actually managed to hold his form together well enough to get better GC results than Thomas. But Thomas is older and has had more attempts at GTs.
When Wiggins got his first Tour podium he was younger than Thomas in 2015, the year of his mythical 15th. So on what possible basis would winning the Tour a few years later, with another GT podium in between, represent more of a transformation than a 32 year old Thomas winning after never getting a podium and never getting a GT top 10 but once sort of looking good before finishing 15th?
Even Cobo and Horner had GT top 10s before they won. Froome was a mere child of 27 when he got his first podium. If Thomas wins the Tour this year it represents the single biggest transformation in a rider in the modern history of the sport.
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