Cycle of Lies

[ChewbaccaD]

I disagree on this point. What she identifies really well is not Armstrong's doping per se, which is indeed out there, but rather the way Armstrong's mind worked in his inter-personal relationships with other people.

These anecdotal stories are a psychologists dream, because there is real evidence that LA is a sociopath at least and a psychopath at worst.

No other book about LA/USPS/Astana doping does that.

Reading the Clinic is hardly the best way to learn much about cycling given the obvious biases, subjective opinions unsupported by evidence, the off topic divergencies, obtuse disagreements, posturing and paranoid conspiracy theories that dominate the Clinic. One has to read a lot of nonsense before one finds a nugget of information.

You weren't paying attention then, because I've known for years that the guy was a sociopath. I can remember YEARS ago, RR writing that Lance doesn't have friends, he has employees. Heck, that book doesn't even broach the curios tendency for his former teammates being busted by the organization then he was giving money to. She glosses right over what many have always said, that being that Wonderboy likely had a hand in the attention they got from the UCI. I haven't read ANYTHING but the Linda Armstrong information that I didn't already know or suspect from the information posted on this forum (and cyclingforums, and other forums that pre-date this one).

Sorry, but if you guys are just getting the low-down on this, you're years behind several posters here. Welcome to the show newb.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

And yet here you are still looking for the nuggets

This place may or may not be as irrelevant as the chamois sniffers always said, but one thing is for sure; there are a lot of people reading that book that think it exposes something that several here have known for quite some time.

 

[Benotti69]

This place may or may not be as irrelevant as the chamois sniffers always said, but one thing is for sure; there are a lot of people reading that book that think it exposes something that several here have known for quite some time.

This place is a thorn in the side of the dopers, especially the english reading ones.

If it wasn't it would be long consigned to history.

 

[BYOP88]

This place may or may not be as irrelevant as the chamois sniffers always said, but one thing is for sure; there are a lot of people reading that book that think it exposes something that several here have known for quite some time.

This place is a thorn in the side of the dopers, especially the english reading ones.

If it wasn't it would be long consigned to history.

Yeah you bunch of bone idle bankers and runts! Get off your asses and do something

 

[Benotti69]

Yeah you bunch of bone idle bankers and runts! Get off your asses and do something

I am, I am reading the twitter war @ssbike and @Digger_forum are fighting against Skybots.

 

[eporesis]

I learned two things from CoL:

1) GH seems to have hit his head too many times. I can't tell if his too stupid to keep his lies straight, he can't remember, or that for him, there's really no difference.

I feel sorry for the kids on his devo team.

2) Lim is either utterly delusional or thinks we're all so dumb that he can ply that B movie script story and we'll all buy it like Macur did.

He's another guy who shouldn't be allowed within 15 feet of a u23.

What a depressing book.

 

[Neworld]

This place may or may not be as irrelevant as the chamois sniffers always said, but one thing is for sure; there are a lot of people reading that book that think it exposes something that several here have known for quite some time.

Obviously you are right, and have been for ...coming up on 2 decades.

But, IMO the more books, with corroborating evidence and recall of solid events, published for the non-clinic12, the better.

For the CNForum reader to claim they are shocked, is shocking.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Obviously you are right, and have been for ...coming up on 2 decades.

But, IMO the more books, with corroborating evidence and recall of solid events, published for the non-clinic12, the better.

For the CNForum reader who claim they are shocked, is shocking.

Fair enough.

 

[Hemassist]

Like what? The Allan Lim fable?

Haha, I like the term Allen Lim's Fables:


Allen Lim's Fables:

Attack, pour the bottles on your head, hit the throttle and they'll be dead.

Eat the rice cakes, thrice before the 60k. Keep hands off the brakes and you'll be lean, clean, and mean climbing machine.

Floyd's a little weird, and I was almost his beard!

I did not help him dope, nope, instead we made jokes about him using a rope.

In data, trust and verify, but watch me use marketing to clarify that my sports drink doesn't stink.

Edited: to make rhymes work better

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Haha, I like the term Allen Lim's Fables:


Allen Lim's Fables:

Attack, pour the bottles on your head, hit the throttle and they'll be dead.

Eat the rice cakes, thrice before the 60k, and keep hands off the brakes because you'll be lean, clean, and mean climbing machine.

Floyd's a little weird, and I was almost his beard!

I did not help him dope, nope, instead we made jokes about him using a rope.

In data, trust and verify, but watch me use marketing to clarify that my sports drink doesn't stink.

Brilliant!!!

 

[RobbieCanuck]

And yet here you are still looking for the nuggets

Yep and they are hard to find. Pretty useless post Benotti.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

You weren't paying attention then, because I've known for years that the guy was a sociopath. I can remember YEARS ago, RR writing that Lance doesn't have friends, he has employees. Heck, that book doesn't even broach the curios tendency for his former teammates being busted by the organization then he was giving money to. She glosses right over what many have always said, that being that Wonderboy likely had a hand in the attention they got from the UCI. I haven't read ANYTHING but the Linda Armstrong information that I didn't already know or suspect from the information posted on this forum (and cyclingforums, and other forums that pre-date this one).

Sorry, but if you guys are just getting the low-down on this, you're years behind several posters here. Welcome to the show newb.

Your post doesn't even make logical sense. It is full of spelling errors, sloppy and your syntax stinks. Given that you are a such a source of information oldie, refer me to your specific post in the Clinic where you refer to LA as a sociopath.

You haven't read any where the story of JT Neal, the Lim stuff and of course Linda. Why is it you so called Clinic 12 have the hubris to believe you are the sole repositories of cycling knowledge and are reduced to slagging to puff up your arrogance.

 

[Hemassist]

You haven't read any where the story of JT Neal, the Lim stuff and of course Linda. Why is it you so called Clinic 12 have the hubris to believe you are the sole repositories of cycling knowledge and are reduced to slagging to puff up your arrogance.

I'm feeling pretty sanguine that we all just read the story. If you read the book Cycle of Lies, that this thread is supposed to be focused on, you would agree.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

I'm feeling pretty sanguine that we all just read the story. If you read the book Cycle of Lies, that this thread is supposed to be focused on, you would agree.

How is being cheerfully optimistic "we all just read the story" have anything to do with anything? I have read the book and my posts are about the book. Look at my post #572 and the one above. They are both focused on the content of the book! So I would agree my posts are about the book.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Your post doesn't even make logical sense. It is full of spelling errors, sloppy and your syntax stinks. Given that you are a such a source of information oldie, refer me to your specific post in the Clinic where you refer to LA as a sociopath.

You haven't read any where the story of JT Neal, the Lim stuff and of course Linda. Why is it you so called Clinic 12 have the hubris to believe you are the sole repositories of cycling knowledge and are reduced to slagging to puff up your arrogance.

Noobs think people who aren't as nooby as them owe them something. You're cute.

"...full of spelling errors, sloppy and your syntax stinks." Irony. Get some.

BTW nooby, JT didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know, except for the stuff about Linda. As for me calling him a sociopath, did it years ago. YEARS ago. You shoulda' been there.

 

[D-Queued]

I disagree on this point. What she identifies really well is not Armstrong's doping per se, which is indeed out there, but rather the way Armstrong's mind worked in his inter-personal relationships with other people.

These anecdotal stories are a psychologists dream, because there is real evidence that LA is a sociopath at least and a psychopath at worst.

No other book about LA/USPS/Astana doping does that.

Reading the Clinic is hardly the best way to learn much about cycling given the obvious biases, subjective opinions unsupported by evidence, the off topic divergencies, obtuse disagreements, posturing and paranoid conspiracy theories that dominate the Clinic. One has to read a lot of nonsense before one finds a nugget of information.

While I agree, to be fair the DRM doesn't distinguish between the two.

Thus, for our purposes and our level of depth, sociopath = psychopath.

When all things are considered wrt Lance, we probably are simply splitting hairs on the nomenclature.

Dave.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Oh yea, Clinic 12 foeva'.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

While I agree, to be fair the DRM doesn't distinguish between the two.

Thus, for our purposes and our level of depth, sociopath = psychopath.

When all things are considered wrt Lance, we probably are simply splitting hairs on the nomenclature.

Dave.

Sorry Dave you are off on this one. And it is the DSM and not the DRM. But not to fret your mistake is a common one.

The idea of sociopathy was renamed in the DSM-III and the DSM-IV TR as Antisocial Personality Disorder. The essence of the disorder is a person with an anti-social orientation whereby a person does not adhere to societal rules (i.e. Armstrong) but may still have a conscience.

However Macur's book lays to rest the idea LA has a conscience by her anecdotal stories about people like J.T. Neal for example. For me those stories solidified in my mind at least LA has no conscience, lifting him to the realm of psychopath. IMO this book best describes this behaviour in LA, even though at a gut level many people have considered him a psychopath for a long time.

Psychopaths are typically diagnosed using the screening device called the Hare PCL-R (Psychopathy Check List Revised) as opposed to the current edition of the DSM, the DSM-5. The syndrome of psychopathy or the identification of the concept of "psychopath" is not in the DSM.

 

[blackcat]

Sorry Dave you are off on this one. And it is the DSM and not the DRM. But not to fret your mistake is a common one.

The idea of sociopathy was renamed in the DSM-III and the DSM-IV TR as Antisocial Personality Disorder. The essence of the disorder is a person with an anti-social orientation whereby a person does not adhere to societal rules (i.e. Armstrong) but may still have a conscience.

However Macur's book lays to rest the idea LA has a conscience by her anecdotal stories about people like J.T. Neal for example. For me those stories solidified in my mind at least LA has no conscience, lifting him to the realm of psychopath. IMO this book best describes this behaviour in LA, even though at a gut level many people have considered him a psychopath for a long time.

Psychopaths are typically diagnosed using the screening device called the Hare PCL-R (Psychopathy Check List Revised) as opposed to the current edition of the DSM, the DSM-5. The syndrome of psychopathy or the identification of the concept of "psychopath" is not in the DSM.

prolly a typo on DRM/DSM I think, if you have not read D-Q's oeuvre of posting cos he has been over all those facets and definitions prior.

I think the only evidence needed was the bouquet of flowers one of his twin daughters wished to give him at the end of a triathlon and he treated her as if she was not there.

 

[Granville57]

I think the only evidence needed was the bouquet of flowers one of his twin daughters wished to give him at the end of a triathlon and he treated her as if she were brunette.

Fixed that as well.



(I'm in Home Depot mode this evening )

 

[D-Queued]

Sorry Dave you are off on this one. And it is the DSM and not the DRM. But not to fret your mistake is a common one.

The idea of sociopathy was renamed in the DSM-III and the DSM-IV TR as Antisocial Personality Disorder. The essence of the disorder is a person with an anti-social orientation whereby a person does not adhere to societal rules (i.e. Armstrong) but may still have a conscience.

However Macur's book lays to rest the idea LA has a conscience by her anecdotal stories about people like J.T. Neal for example. For me those stories solidified in my mind at least LA has no conscience, lifting him to the realm of psychopath. IMO this book best describes this behaviour in LA, even though at a gut level many people have considered him a psychopath for a long time.

Psychopaths are typically diagnosed using the screening device called the Hare PCL-R (Psychopathy Check List Revised) as opposed to the current edition of the DSM, the DSM-5. The syndrome of psychopathy or the identification of the concept of "psychopath" is not in the DSM.

Thanks for the correction!

If Lance has a conscience, it is shallow.

And, yes, I oversimplified. But, that was my point. For 'all' intents an purposes, considering whether Lance is simply sociopathic or fully psychopathic suggests we may need expert insight. Bottom line he is waaaay out there on the scale, whichever scale is used.

I have posted this link before, on the site "The Sociopathic Style" - where notably these have been re-dubbed "Psychopathic Traits":

http://www.sociopathicstyle.com/psychopathic-traits/

Conscience would be covered by:

5. LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT — A lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, cold-hearted, and non-empathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one’s victims.

6. SHALLOW AFFECT — Emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness.

7. CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY — A lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.


Using a 0 (none), 1 (some), and 2 (a lot) scale, however you add it up Lance still scores almost a perfect 40.

Dave.

 

[Hemassist]

How is being cheerfully optimistic "we all just read the story" have anything to do with anything? I have read the book and my posts are about the book. Look at my post #572 and the one above. They are both focused on the content of the book! So I would agree my posts are about the book.

My apologies,

I was just refuting your comment which was:

"You haven't read any where the story of JT Neal, the Lim stuff and of course Linda."

Since this thread is a discussion of the Juliet Macur book, Cycle of Lie, and their stories were covered within.

Based on your accusations of "haven't read any where," about the topics of "JT Neal, the Lim stuff and of course Linda," which were covered in the book, I hastily jumped to a conclusion that you hadn't read the material.

Having participated in many book discussion, I am aware that people attend book clubs and participate in discussions, without having read the book which negates the purpose of having a discussion on events described by the author. I thought this was the case with your comment.

Since I am new to the internet, and especially book discussions online, I failed to read your comments prior to submitting my reply. As per your suggestion, I checked you previous posts which suggest you have read the book.

For my incorrect assumption, I apologize.

Also, I will practice my skills discussing books on the internet.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

I think the only evidence needed was the bouquet of flowers one of his twin daughters wished to give him at the end of a triathlon and he treated her as if she was not there.

Yes that incident would nail it!

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Thanks for the correction!

If Lance has a conscience, it is shallow.

And, yes, I oversimplified. But, that was my point. For 'all' intents an purposes, considering whether Lance is simply sociopathic or fully psychopathic suggests we may need expert insight. Bottom line he is waaaay out there on the scale, whichever scale is used.

I have posted this link before, on the site "The Sociopathic Style" - where notably these have been re-dubbed "Psychopathic Traits":

http://www.sociopathicstyle.com/psychopathic-traits/

Conscience would be covered by:

5. LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT — A lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, cold-hearted, and non-empathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one’s victims.

6. SHALLOW AFFECT — Emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness.

7. CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY — A lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.


Using a 0 (none), 1 (some), and 2 (a lot) scale, however you add it up Lance still scores almost a perfect 40.

Dave.

Yep, you are bang on

 

[AcademyCC]

Good book but again 90% wasnt anything i hadnt heard on this forum. Weird when when conspiracy theories come true eh?

The odd odd bit of hatchet work when she drew unfair conclusions to limited evidence but all in all a good clean butchering session.

Man, he really ****ed it up properly.