Cyclingnews forum myth busters

[tgsgirl]

1. This is a great thread.

Myth: Lotto did their best to help Evans.
Fact: Whenever the going got tough, or in TTTs, Evans was left on his own.

If that "fact" - and I use that term very, very lightly - is enough to conclude that Lotto didn't do their best to help Evans, then by your own (faulty) logic BMC didn't do their best to help him either, right?

 

[issoisso]

*Ba-de-ya
Say do you remember?
Ba-de-ya
Rumours in September?*

Aheem. I'm sorry.

What happened?

Promised Popo he'd work for him. Then Popo gets gapped a little bit, and Evans doesn't wait.

1. This is a great thread.



If that "fact" - and I use that term very, very lightly - is enough to conclude that Lotto didn't do their best to help Evans, then by your own (faulty) logic BMC didn't do their best to help him either, right?

Never expect logic from a guy with a 2nd grade spelling mistake in his nickname

 

[hfer07]

Myth: Bernard Hinault back stabbed Greg Lemond during the 86 TDF
Fact: Bernard Hinault made Greg Lemond " to earn" his first TDF win- back in those days, there was no "gifts BS"

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Myth: Lotto did their best to help Evans.

Fact: Whenever the going got tough, or in TTTs, Evans was left on his own.

But the point is, he wouldn't have been left alone if:-

- Kohl hadn't turned out to be a fraud
- Dekker hadn't turned out to be a fraud
- he hadn't POd Popo so that he wasn't totally dedicated to the cause
- he'd stuck around to get the benefit from signings like Moreno

I also seem to recall Chris Horner being there almost all the way in 2007.

I'm not criticising Evans' decision that he needed a change of scenery; he probably did. The moaning that Lotto never tried to help him is a myth though. Now, whether they succeeded when they tried to help him, that's another question.

 

[Bernardus]

Thanks for al the info, but still nothing near an answer.

This quote from your first linked article pretty much sums it up.



Who? Where? When? How old? What level?
I'm not asking about Italians here

The whole Zanoli thing is a different story.

In a recent interview Peter Janssen stated that this was a story that started in the Neue Zürcher Zeitung. Someone created a list of riders that had died in the late 80s, without any proof that EPO had caused those deaths. (source)

 

[Notso Swift]

But the point is, he wouldn't have been left alone if:-

- Kohl hadn't turned out to be a fraud
- Dekker hadn't turned out to be a fraud
- he hadn't POd Popo so that he wasn't totally dedicated to the cause
- he'd stuck around to get the benefit from signings like Moreno

I also seem to recall Chris Horner being there almost all the way in 2007.

I'm not criticising Evans' decision that he needed a change of scenery; he probably did. The moaning that Lotto never tried to help him is a myth though. Now, whether they succeeded when they tried to help him, that's another question.

Kohl yes, Dekker yes, Horner yes (Although Evens was ****ed right off when they didn't extend his contract and the value the team and Horner were talking about was apparently small and Popo was supposed to cost more, not a good move.)
But Popo, can't agree. Evans supported him in Paris Nice, Popo didn't have the legs, exactly the same as Evans didn't have the legs in the Giro, or 7/8 TdF. Put it this way, Popo couldn't hold on to a classics rider... The stage Evans won, I think it was either Alp d'Huez or Ventoux (either way it was a Queen stage), he did no work with the stage winner (Gesink?) and took the stage for the TEAM.

By the TTT in the 2009 TdF the relationship with the team was well and truly on the turn, by the end it was sour. Like you I also think that BMC is better for Evans purely for the fact it was time, but I also feel that when BMC have their A team (which we have not seen yet, spliting to go for the Giro and Cali was suicide IMO) they may actually be a better bet for him than Lotto

 

[pedaling squares]

The biggest myth I see perpetuated on the CN forum is...

Myth:
That you can trust a cyclist who meets some or all of these criteria:
A. comes from your country
B. doesn't come from Spain
C. speaks your first language
D. is on your favourite team
E. is genuinely a very nice man

Fact:
The fact is that we've had the wool pulled over our eyes many times by nice men who come from the nice little town down the road. Not all cyclists cheat, but those who do cannot be identified by an accent, a black mask, or a handlebar moustache.

 

[issoisso]

Put it this way, Popo couldn't hold on to a classics rider

Come again? I'm looking at the stage results and I see 5 guys ahead of him All of them have high finishes in GT GCs and only two of them don't have Top 5s (and one of them, Gesink, would have, if not for an injury)

Evans promised Popovych he'd help. Then he left him isolated. Yeah, that's awesome teamwork.

 

[Notso Swift]

You think Tintin Rebellin is a GT rider?
If so I can't argue with that, but cracking the top 10 once last century does not stop him being a Classics rider, dare I say a "well credentialed" classics rider, even

As I remember it about 2km to go Evans was riding tempo with Gesink and Popovych, just a little clear of the second group, Gesink attacked, Evans held on, and Popo popped. On TV you could even see Evans go to his radio when Gesink got 20 mt on him THEN jump on to Gesinks wheel
You show me where Evans was doing anything but team orders

The Fact of Popo in 2008 is he wasn't with the program which is why he didn't even get a contract offer from Lotto for 2009

 

[tgsgirl]

The Fact of Popo in 2008 is he wasn't with the program which is why he didn't even get a contract offer from Lotto for 2009

Lance wanted him back! How much money do you think Lotto have, that they can go against Lance?

 

[Fourier]

Regarding José María Jiménez,
The circumstances of his death are still a mystery, was it depression? was dope involved? not likely since he was out of competition for two years before his death or was it related to some effort to come back to the sport?
Does somebody have some info on this?

 

[issoisso]

Regarding José María Jiménez,
The circumstances of his death are still a mystery, was it depression? was dope involved? not likely since he was out of competition for two years before his death or was it related to some effort to come back to the sport?
Does somebody have some info on this?

Heart attack. It's impossible to say what precise factor caused it above all others.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

There is supposed to be a documentary on Chava being made in Spain at the moment http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sastre-collaborates-with-makers-of-chava-jimenez-documentary which might shed more light on his death.

 

[Fourier]

Thanx for the tip, I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Delicato]

Regarding Popo and Evans.

Read my post a few months ago.

You are right, Paris-Nice was Popovych's major goal for the first part of season, but the problem was that it was only his third (IIRC) race of the season and his fitness level certainly wasn't optimal. Popovych had a blog where he wrote in both Russian and Ukrainian, during the P-N there were many questions about his relationship with Evans,but actually he said that he himself made a mistake, was too concentrated on Rebellin and missed Gesink's initial acceleration. He (Popovych) also had some problems with bike's wheels, apparently.

When I asked Popo whether Evans was working for him or just wanted a stage win, he said that it was team's initial plan for Evans to stay on strongest climber's wheel (not to work) and win a stage, if possible.

So, sometimes some of you guys tend to blame Evans in situations where he is actually innocent.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Myth: Lotto did nothing to help Cadel Evans, or didn't want to

Fact:
Lotto worked very hard to try to find helpers for Evans. Their attempts were spoilt a little by naïveté when it came to searching for Grand Tour riders, but they did bring in quite a lot of riders with the intention of building support for Evans:
In 2007 they brought in Dario Cioni, who had been 4th in the 2004 Giro and working as a domestique for Liquigas. They had Chris Horner, reborn as a rider at that point and who killed himself for Evans in the 2007 Tour (before continuing to kill himself to protect his GC spot in the hope of a good transfer, I know). They had Josep Jufre, a more than capable climber who will be helping drag Alberto Contador up mountains next month. They brought in Matty Lloyd, a useful if hardly élite climber (he's just won the Giro KOM, albeit in the same way as Fabian Wegmann won it). For 2008, they signed Yaroslav Popovych, 5th in the 2004 Giro and Maglia Rosa for four days, winner of the 2005 Volta a Catalunya, and a key domestique for Discovery Channel, 12th in the 2005 Tour and 8th in the 2007 Tour in support of winners. Cadel alienated him at Paris-Nice, and although Popo's 2008 performance was disappointing, he still finished 22nd at the Tour, which isn't shoddy. For 2009, they broke the bank trying to win Evans the Tour de France. They paid through the nose to get Bernhard Kohl, 3rd in the 2008 Tour and King of the Mountains, and to get Thomas Dekker, whose performances in the Ardennes and in early-season stage races in 2008 had been a revelation. Both turned out to be frauds. They paid out for Charlie Wegelius from Liquigas, and his performance was average; he did alright but was never meant to be the last helper remaining. Jürgen Van Den Broeck came 7th in the 2008 Giro (with two of the riders ahead of him since disgraced) and Francis De Greef was always up there in the following pack in the Vuelta mountains. Ready for 2010, they purchased Daniel Moreno from Caisse d'Epargne, who had been a key domestique finishing the Vuelta around 10th-15th for a couple of years, but before they could go any further Cuddles jumped ship.

Lotto tried very hard to help Cadel Evans, but a combination of bad luck, bad form and bad decisions prevented them from ever doing it as comprehensively as they would have liked.

- I am going to take the bate!

Myth: It was Evans' fault with Lotto

Some descisons they made behind the scenes and the team environment was very poor. They didn't have a clue and still don't know how to run a team. Look at how many wins they have had for all the quality riders they have. The clearly don't have a clue now as the amount of talent they have is pretty pathetic.

Evans did not help the situation at some moments but it was mostly the teams fault.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Come again? I'm looking at the stage results and I see 5 guys ahead of him All of them have high finishes in GT GCs and only two of them don't have Top 5s (and one of them, Gesink, would have, if not for an injury)

Evans promised Popovych he'd help. Then he left him isolated. Yeah, that's awesome teamwork.

Ignorance is bliss!

 

[9000ft]

Myth: Everything a "real" cycling fan posts on cycling interwebz forums (and interwebz forums in general) is true and every one else except like minded posters are wrong. Interwebz forum posters think they know everything about everybody in the context whatever topic piques their interest.

Fact: Posters on interwebz forums only think everything they post is true when in fact they may be right about somethings and they may be wrong about some things. However, information, whether it is right or wrong -but more often than not wrong - takes on a life of it's own on the web and generally, the truth and objectivity is the first thing buried amid the frenzy.

 

[dancing on pedals]

Myth - Paris Tours has always been an autumn classic
Fact _ It started as a spring race moved for a few years before WW1 to autumn then returned as a march april or may start until the early 1950's. The organisers realising they were in competition with the Belgium classics and were getting weaker fields so moved the date forward.
Why is it important because Pélissier's abandonment in the Tour de France of 1924 ( as recorded in Les Forçats de la route) makes much more sense if you realise that Pélissier had already had issues with Desgrange in the Paris Tours held a few weeks before the race over the same issue.
May seem a minor point but it annoys me.

 

[dancing on pedals]

Tom Simpson
I come from tom Simpson country a woman i work with used to live next door to him in Harworth.
I am particulary interested in the 1967 Paris Nice race and his relationship with Eddy Merckx who attended his funeral, if anyone has any information or photos i would be most interested.btw the bike he won the race on and his RVV victory bike are on display at the Harworth welfare club - plus a lot of other stuff.
Myth Tommy and Eddy fell out in Paris Nice
Fact "Tom taught me how to race" - Eddy Merckx

 

[craig1985]

Heart attack. It's impossible to say what precise factor caused it above all others.

I thought his love of Bolivian Marching Powder might have been a factor.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Ignorance is bliss!

that isn't even a reply. rather then post one liners maybe post an actual rebuttal

----

1. This is a great thread.



If that "fact" - and I use that term very, very lightly - is enough to conclude that Lotto didn't do their best to help Evans, then by your own (faulty) logic BMC didn't do their best to help him either, right?

indeed. lotto never had an overly strong GT team, but they did what they could I thought. The blame game gets old.
BMC are worse support.

 

[uphillstruggle]

Myth: Ullrich never trained properly and was always over weight.

 

[auscyclefan94]

that isn't even a reply. rather then post one liners maybe post an actual rebuttal

----



indeed. lotto never had an overly strong GT team, but they did what they could I thought. The blame game gets old.
BMC are worse support.

Some people are too blind to face the FACTS that even if it hits them in the face they still would not get it.

 

[Big GMaC]

Myth: Ullrich never trained properly and was always over weight.

Fact: He was big boned ok? Now pass the shnitzel, Jan's in my kitchen, eating all my foods