Dan Martin - "Now I know you can win clean"

[sniper]

Firstly how would anyone have any idea of Martin's talent level in relation to Mottet or Delion. It is you that is arguing everyone is blood doping so comparing a rider from this era to Mottet or Delion is pure folly in terms of comparing ability. Looking at their respective results, Martin would not be far of either rider in terms of talent at age 24.

Also LeMond suffered from hayfever and Mottet also suffered from the same or sinuses or something, don't remember which. Willy Voet mentioned that when Mottet had his aliments treated, he would be on fire. So another one of your points out the window.

This is very simple, you claim it is not possible for a clean rider to beat a blood doped/EPO rider. I am saying I believe it is possible on occassion, particularly in a one day race or a given stage of a GT. I have provided examples of this happening and to throw another one in there, Mottet beating Bugno on the Pordoi Pass stage in the 1990 Giro, the toughest stage of that edition. I have backed up my postion with several examples now. I don't need to explain how Martin beat dopers in a one day race on bread and water because I have already provided prior evidence of this happening.

This is a bit like someone claiming something never happened, being provided with evidence that it did in fact happen but still claiming it didn't happen.

It is up to you to explain how these results happened when you claim it is impossible. My bet is you can't or won't.

occam's razor, rings a bell?
yes it happens, but perhaps in 5% of the cases.
the other 95% are doped performances.
you have provided evidence that there might be 5% clean winners.
you haven't provided any evidence that Martin is among that 5%.

 

[pmcg76]

occam's razor, rings a bell?
yes it happens, but perhaps in 5% of the cases.
the other 95% are doped performances.
you have provided evidence that there might be 5% clean winners.
you haven't provided any evidence that Martin is among that 5%.

I didn't claim anywhere that Martin is clean. I merely said that it possible for clean riders to beat doped riders backed up with examples, therefore there is the real possibility that Martin is indeed winning monuments clean.

Other posters are claiming that is impossible and labelling Martin a doper because of him winning. That is what I am refuting.

 

[gooner]

As an aside, i have not heard Dan Martin complain that riders in his team were only given 6 months bans for doping over a winter non racing period. Not sure Bassons would have kept silent about it like Dan Martin.

Bassons in his book said he was toeing the party line in public many times back then.

No doubt if the clinic was around in that period you would be on here calling him a doper as a result.

 

[sniper]

I didn't claim anywhere that Martin is clean. I merely said that it possible for clean riders to beat doped riders backed up with examples, therefore there is the real possibility that Martin is indeed winning monuments clean.

Other posters are claiming that is impossible and labelling Martin a doper because of him winning. That is what I am refuting.

fair enough.
though I don't think anybody is claiming it is strictly impossible either.
the point is, does he deserve the benefit of the doubt?
as recent cycling history has amply taught us, a guy with Martin's palmares more often than not turns out to be a doper.
it's now up to Garmin to put in an effort to show that Martin is one of the few who can indeed win GTs clean. Until that moment, i think it stands to reason to assume Martin is doping.
Occam's razor.

 

[Benotti69]

Firstly how would anyone have any idea of Martin's talent level in relation to Mottet or Delion. It is you that is arguing everyone is blood doping so comparing a rider from this era to Mottet or Delion is pure folly in terms of comparing ability. Looking at their respective results, Martin would not be far of either rider in terms of talent at age 24.

I doubt riders are only blood doping when there is such a range of products being developed all the time and anti doping is asleep.

Also LeMond suffered from hayfever and Mottet also suffered from the same or sinuses or something, don't remember which. Willy Voet mentioned that when Mottet had his aliments treated, he would be on fire. So another one of your points out the window

You shoot you score, but dont go comparing Dan to Mottet to LeMond as that is pure folly apparently.

This is very simple, you claim it is not possible for a clean rider to beat a blood doped/EPO rider.

I claim it is not possible for a rider to beat dopers. They are taking a lot more than EPO, see Jesus Manzano for a list of products and then add maybe 20 more to that due to more products being devised.

I am saying I believe it is possible on occassion, particularly in a one day race or a given stage of a GT.

I dont think it is. The teams are doped so the peloton is going faster and for clean to be able to be there after 250+ kms and winning aint possible unless the circumstances provided the luck towards the clean rider, ie weather crashes etc....

I have provided examples of this happening and to throw another one in there, Mottet beating Bugno on the Pordoi Pass stage in the 1990 Giro, the toughest stage of that edition.

I have provided 37 dopers. So that is 37 - 2 to me.

I have backed up my postion with several examples now. I don't need to explain how Martin beat dopers in a one day race on bread and water because I have already provided prior evidence of this happening.

You position is backed by nothing. You have provided nothing to show that Martin is clean, in a sport where doping is part of the fabric.

This is a bit like someone claiming something never happened, being provided with evidence that it did in fact happen but still claiming it didn't happen.

No it aint. The sport is a cesspit. The days of clean riders winning regularly against dopers were pre epo. Teams are now set up to pick riders who 'respond' to 'preparations' along with talent.

It is up to you to explain how these results happened when you claim it is impossible. My bet is you can't or won't.

I dont have explain how a rider who wins is doping, that is the default position. Those days of innocent until proven guilty are long gone. It is now up to teams and riders to provide as much information as they can and be as transparent as they can be about everything in order to be thought of as clean.

If you or Dan Martin, JV, Brailsford or anyone else doesn't like my position, you can ask yourself who put the sport into this position, it was not me? The sport has had plenty of opportunities to clean itself up and every single time bar none it has lied and ignored these opportunities. Why anyone thinks it has changed now when nothing has actually changed does beggar belief, but then people need something to believe in and believing in national champions and being blind to how they become champions when nothing has changed is not anything new.

I have pointed out that Dan Martin rides for an owner who doped, in a team with loads of unrepentant dopers and only one tested positive retroactively and people bring up the name of Bassons. Bassons when asked called out the doping. Dan Martin talks about everything being cleaner now ignoring Astana, Riis, Contador, Piti, OPQS, Sky, Lampre, BMC, Orica, etc etc and Bassons claiming recently nothing has changed.

So Dan Martin rides in a sport where everything points to doping is still part of the fabric and yet you believe he is clean! How? Why? Because he wears green once a year?

We'll have to disagree.

 

[Benotti69]

Bassons in his book said he was toeing the party line in public many times back then.

No doubt if the clinic was around in that period you would be on here calling him a doper as a result.

No doubt is Bassons had an outlet like social media he would've spoken earlier.

It was when he was asked to write for a newspaper that he told the truth.

Martin writes for the Irish Times and does not do a Bassons.

 

[Big Doopie]

let's say one rider is a natural 9.

another rider is a natural 7.

7 is allowed unrestricted doping and becomes a 10, maybe even an 11. beats clean rider who remains a 9.

however, certain things are put in place. rider 7 can no longer dope quite as much as before and while getting an increase in performance, is only able to move up to a 9 now. Now the natural 9 at least has a chance at beating the chemically enhanced 9 once in a while.

particularly in a one day race where long-term recovery is not being tested.

very simple really.

 

[Big Doopie]

No doubt is Bassons had an outlet like social media he would've spoken earlier.

It was when he was asked to write for a newspaper that he told the truth.

lol and lol again. and you know this how?

this is what your entire theory rests on.

bassons only spouted because he thought things had changed after festina but realized with armstrong that nothing had. that is the only reason. he was so disappointed and finally frustrated enough to speak. but for several years -- despite testing better than them in the early season when everyone was off epo) he had to watch as lesser teammates stole, yes stole, his chance to ride his home Tour...

martin has no need to make enemies when he is already able to win and he is on a team that was specifically set up so that there was no pressure to dope for results. if he can win lombardy and LBL why would he turn around and scream bloody murder at riders who may be obviously doping -- clentadoppucci, piti, etc... -- but when he has no actual proof.

he has made it quite clear that he prefers one day races -- that seems to me to be a pretty obvious statement that he realizes that over a 3 week tour where the cheaters are getting refills (even of lesser quantity than before), that a podium is not in the cards...

 

[yespatterns]

let's say one rider is a natural 9.

another rider is a natural 7.

7 is allowed unrestricted doping and becomes a 10, maybe even an 11. beats clean rider who remains a 9.

however, certain things are put in place. rider 7 can no longer dope quite as much as before and while getting an increase in performance, is only able to move up to a 9 now. Now the natural 9 at least has a chance at beating the chemically enhanced 9 once in a while.

particularly in a one day race where long-term recovery is not being tested.

very simple really.

I see what point you are trying to make, but making up a fictional scenario like this to correspond to your preffered narrative isn't the most effective way to get it across. High level responders will still have the advatage over a talented clean athlete, both in terms of blood oxygen capacity and effort recovery (generally speaking).

 

[IzzyStradlin]

No doubt is Bassons had an outlet like social media he would've spoken earlier.

Yes, speculation over what Christophe Bassons would have said on social media, had it existed in 1998, is a much more relevant debate.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Yes, speculation over what Christophe Bassons would have said on social media, had it existed in 1998, is a much more relevant debate.

I checked back a bit to see where yespatterns had made this particular argument and was surprised to find that he had not. Super strawman!

 

[IzzyStradlin]

I checked back a bit to see where yespatterns had made this particular argument and was surprised to find that he had not. Super strawman!

I was agreeing with yespatterns. mocking others. Quote changed to reflect that.

 

[Benotti69]

lol and lol again. and you know this how?

this is what your entire theory rests on.

bassons only spouted because he thought things had changed after festina but realized with armstrong that nothing had. that is the only reason. he was so disappointed and finally frustrated enough to speak. but for several years -- despite testing better than them in the early season when everyone was off epo) he had to watch as lesser teammates stole, yes stole, his chance to ride his home Tour...

I am going to leave the Bassons stuff for a Bassons thread.

martin has no need to make enemies when he is already able to win and he is on a team that was specifically set up so that there was no pressure to dope for results. if he can win lombardy and LBL why would he turn around and scream bloody murder at riders who may be obviously doping -- clentadoppucci, piti, etc... -- but when he has no actual proof.

No pressure on Garmin? Where did you get that from?

If he can win clean, why is he not slamming the likes of Piti, Contador and Froome whom he finished behind in GTs? Hmm so Martin is happy to win a couple of monuments clean, knowing that he'll never win a GT because of the dopers and he is happy with that? I would doubt it. That kind of thing would drive a person mad! Delion left the sport due to this.

he has made it quite clear that he prefers one day races -- that seems to me to be a pretty obvious statement that he realizes that over a 3 week tour where the cheaters are getting refills (even of lesser quantity than before), that a podium is not in the cards...

So Martin has said that he prefers beating dopers on one day rather than not being able to beat them over 3 weeks, even though if he is doing this clean, and that is a massive IF, he is ok with it. Bollix. No one accepts those kind of conditions at this kind competitive level.

 

[Benotti69]

let's say one rider is a natural 9.

So you are arguing Dan Martin is naturally 9 and dopers can only get to 10?

If Martin was a 9, why not tell the world? Why has he not won more one day races or 3 day races or week long races? A natural 9!!!! yeah of course he is. His Palmares show what a natural 9 he is.

Another point is what if certain dopers are allowed to turn it up to 11, 12, 13 and further, then explain how Martin wins, because we dont know what riders are capable of because there is no transparency and we rely on the 'psuedo scientists' for an idea of how things are now and it appears that numbers are matching and in some cases out powering the 2000's....

 

[IzzyStradlin]

If Martin was a 9, why not tell the world? Why has he not won more one day races or 3 day races or week long races? A natural 9!!!! yeah of course he is. His Palmares show what a natural 9 he is.

By your logic, the strongest rider would always win. So let's pretend for a minute that everybody full-on doping. If one rider has a higher threshold than the other, higher power curve, he will win. Every time.

How do you account for Gerrans beating Cancellara at Sanremo? Van Summeren win Roubaix? Rui Costa wins a World Champs?

 

[thrawn]

By your logic, the strongest rider would always win. So let's pretend for a minute that everybody full-on doping. If one rider has a higher threshold than the other, higher power curve, he will win. Every time.

How do you account for Gerrans beating Cancellara at Sanremo? Van Summeren win Roubaix? Rui Costa wins a World Champs?

I think Benotti's point is that a clean rider can't be in the final selection of 10 riders in Lombardia with the likes of Valverde etc.

 

[Big Doopie]

I am going to leave the Bassons stuff for a Bassons thread.

good. so you have accepted that you were completely wrong and ignorant on the comparison you made. a tip of the hat to you.

No pressure on Garmin? Where did you get that from?

everywhere. the team was set up with exactly that emphasis/premise. lol. do you seriously know anything? or do you just like making stuff up all the time? LOL.

If he can win clean, why is he not slamming the likes of Piti, Contador and Froome whom he finished behind in GTs? Hmm so Martin is happy to win a couple of monuments clean, knowing that he'll never win a GT because of the dopers and he is happy with that? I would doubt it. That kind of thing would drive a person mad! Delion left the sport due to this.

LOL again at your ignorance about Delion. in 1990 he won lombardy and came in around 10th at the tour just before the full onset of epo. he appeared to have strong potential. he retired from road racing several years later only once he realized he could no longer compete. and what did he do? he went to compete in MTB because it was not yet taken over with epo and he felt he had a chance to compete for the win. and he only quit that when he found that he could no longer win. and he only complained/cited the reasons even later. so -- again -- he was not spouting off against the dopers in 1991 or 1992 or...etc... while he was riding/competing. And had he been able to continue winning lombardy, etc... would he have quit? hardly.

LOL. you are funny how you unknowingly/ignorantly bring up examples that completely support exactly how dan martin has acted.

No one accepts those kind of conditions at this kind competitive level.

really? no one? it seems like every clean rider we know of waited to retire before pointing any fingers. LOL again. you are funny in how completely wrong you are on literally every aspect. a tip of the hat to you for making my day full of laughter.

 

[Big Doopie]

So you are arguing Dan Martin is naturally 9 and dopers can only get to 10?

If Martin was a 9, why not tell the world? Why has he not won more one day races or 3 day races or week long races? A natural 9!!!! yeah of course he is. His Palmares show what a natural 9 he is.

Another point is what if certain dopers are allowed to turn it up to 11, 12, 13 and further....blah, blah and more blah.

did you seriously not understand my very simple analogy? there is nothing to respond to here, because you clearly lack the DNA to understand really simple logic.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

I think Benotti's point is that a clean rider can't be in the final selection of 10 riders in Lombardia with the likes of Valverde etc.

I agree with him, it's beyond ridiculous that Dan Martin was able to climb almost as well as Albasini.

 

[BYOP88]

I agree with him, it's beyond ridiculous that Dan Martin was able to climb almost as well as Albasini.

*off topic* So you think Albasini is clean?

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

*off topic* So you think Albasini is clean?

No idea. Doping or not though, I would not expect him to be a rider who would drop Dan Martin on a climb.

 

[Benotti69]

I agree with him, it's beyond ridiculous that Dan Martin was able to climb almost as well as Albasini.

Albasini??

Wow look at all the clean teams he rode and rides for

2003–2004 Phonak
2005–2008 Liquigas-Bianchi
2009–2011Team Columbia-High Road
2012– GreenEDGE

My oh my........

 

[Benotti69]

everywhere. the team was set up with exactly that emphasis/premise. lol. do you seriously know anything? or do you just like making stuff up all the time? LOL

Yeah, this sport has told us, LOL, so many times it has cleaned itslef up and only a few bad apples still dope, LOL

LOL again at your ignorance about Delion. in 1990 he won lombardy and came in around 10th at the tour just before the full onset of epo. he appeared to have strong potential. he retired from road racing several years later only once he realized he could no longer compete. and what did he do? he went to compete in MTB because it was not yet taken over with epo and he felt he had a chance to compete for the win. and he only quit that when he found that he could no longer win. and he only complained/cited the reasons even later. so -- again -- he was not spouting off against the dopers in 1991 or 1992 or...etc... while he was riding/competing. And had he been able to continue winning lombardy, etc... would he have quit? hardly.

LOL EPO use came way before that, LOL.

LOL. you are funny how you unknowingly/ignorantly bring up examples that completely support exactly how dan martin has acted.

LOL, i am to please and glad it is working on you, LOL. I dont need to give examples of how Dan Martin has acted. He has hardly been the transparent anti doping spokesman of his generation. LOL.

really? no one? it seems like every clean rider we know of waited to retire before pointing any fingers. LOL again. you are funny in how completely wrong you are on literally every aspect. a tip of the hat to you for making my day full of laughter.

LOL, more pleasure for the clientele of the clinic, make sure and tip your mods on the way out, LOL.

So we have to wait for Dan to retire and then he'll start pointing the fingers, LOL?

Ok you wait, i am not. I think Dan Martin dopes like most of if not all of Garmin, LOL.

 

[Netserk]

Albasini??

Wow look at all the clean teams he rode and rides for

2003–2004 Phonak
2005–2008 Liquigas-Bianchi
2009–2011Team Columbia-High Road
2012– GreenEDGE

My oh my........

What teams should he have ridden for?

 

[noddy69]

Not really much clear cut going on here....Because he can win a couple of one day races and year after year get further into three week races he is def doping.

My opinion , If he was Definately doping his rise would not be so gradual. He would be a much better TTer and top 3 minimum grand tour by now.

We can point to power outputs, sharp rises in form, really un natural performances, no dips over three weeks etc for the Contador, valverde Froome's Armstrongs. We can point to the fact they can power any TT and win easy on the climbs.

Dan Martin doesn't do this, I'm not stating 100% faith but I expect more from the clinic if its going to point fingers.