Dekker's book.

[Gregga]

Re:

Leinders was not worried about getting caught. From the original news source:
Confidential papers show that topriders and teammanagers were invited to come to the UCI headquarters in Switzerland where UCI’s chief doctor Mario Zorzoli gave them powerpoint presentations showing UCI’s anti-doping strategy and giving them information about found suspect values. Other riders were called, either by Zorzoli or by Lon Schattenberg, Dutch member of the UCI anti-doping commission.

Dutch riders were warned as well. Karsten Kroon confirms to Vrij Nederland that Lon Schattenberg called him in 2004 to inform him about his abnormal bloodvalues. Kroon was riding for the Rabobank cycling team at the time.

https://www.vn.nl/hein-verbruggen-uci-for-years-cycling-federation-warned-armstrong-and-other-riders-with-suspect-values/

Maybe Leinders didn't fear his riders being sent home, but in the end they couldn't use as much blood as some of their rivals and therefore performed less. By the way, Armstrong "offering" UCI with a Sysmex machine makes sense : if he had an undetectable EPO or a masking agent for EPO, he could fly far from the Off-score / retics threshold while his rivals were playing with fire or had to be careful. Levi and Hamilton were almost popped for high Off-score too and probably couldn't use as much blood bags as they wanted http://www.bicycling.com/did-levi-leipheimer-dope-2005-tour. That's how Lance won back the arm race after 2003 IMHO.

 

[burning]

Do you know how to get this book in US? I searched on amazon, but amazon doesn't have the book in store at the moment.

 

[Irondan]

Re:

Do you know how to get this book in US? I searched on amazon, but amazon doesn't have the book in store at the moment.

It's only published in Dutch right now (that I know of), as to why you can't get it on Amazon I wouldn't know....

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Leinders was not worried about getting caught. From the original news source:
Confidential papers show that topriders and teammanagers were invited to come to the UCI headquarters in Switzerland where UCI’s chief doctor Mario Zorzoli gave them powerpoint presentations showing UCI’s anti-doping strategy and giving them information about found suspect values. Other riders were called, either by Zorzoli or by Lon Schattenberg, Dutch member of the UCI anti-doping commission.

Dutch riders were warned as well. Karsten Kroon confirms to Vrij Nederland that Lon Schattenberg called him in 2004 to inform him about his abnormal bloodvalues. Kroon was riding for the Rabobank cycling team at the time.

https://www.vn.nl/hein-verbruggen-uci-for-years-cycling-federation-warned-armstrong-and-other-riders-with-suspect-values/

Maybe Leinders didn't fear his riders being sent home, but in the end they couldn't use as much blood as some of their rivals and therefore performed less. By the way, Armstrong "offering" UCI with a Sysmex machine makes sense : if he had an undetectable EPO or a masking agent for EPO, he could fly far from the Off-score / retics threshold while his rivals were playing with fire or had to be careful. Levi and Hamilton were almost popped for high Off-score too and probably couldn't use as much blood bags as they wanted http://www.bicycling.com/did-levi-leipheimer-dope-2005-tour. That's how Lance won back the arm race after 2003 IMHO.

It's a good point.
And it could be filed under "antidoping donation", so it made everybody look good.

It reminds me of Froome's Tenerife stunt.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Leinders was not worried about getting caught. From the original news source:
Confidential papers show that topriders and teammanagers were invited to come to the UCI headquarters in Switzerland where UCI’s chief doctor Mario Zorzoli gave them powerpoint presentations showing UCI’s anti-doping strategy and giving them information about found suspect values. Other riders were called, either by Zorzoli or by Lon Schattenberg, Dutch member of the UCI anti-doping commission.

Dutch riders were warned as well. Karsten Kroon confirms to Vrij Nederland that Lon Schattenberg called him in 2004 to inform him about his abnormal bloodvalues. Kroon was riding for the Rabobank cycling team at the time.

https://www.vn.nl/hein-verbruggen-uci-for-years-cycling-federation-warned-armstrong-and-other-riders-with-suspect-values/

Maybe Leinders didn't fear his riders being sent home, but in the end they couldn't use as much blood as some of their rivals and therefore performed less. By the way, Armstrong "offering" UCI with a Sysmex machine makes sense : if he had an undetectable EPO or a masking agent for EPO, he could fly far from the Off-score / retics threshold while his rivals were playing with fire or had to be careful. Levi and Hamilton were almost popped for high Off-score too and probably couldn't use as much blood bags as they wanted http://www.bicycling.com/did-levi-leipheimer-dope-2005-tour. That's how Lance won back the arm race after 2003 IMHO.

There isn't really any reason at all to believe the Sysmex story. What we know is that Armstrong "donated" a *** ton of money to the UCI. Much later, after all this was exposed, Fat Pat trotted out the Sysmex machine story, and didn't let anyone take a close look or photo of the receipt.

It was a *** story from the get-go. Most observers naturally suspect it was trotted out to mask a bribe. There are further reports of other "donations" and financial connections between Armstrong and Verdruggen.

Point is that I wouldn't try and extrapolate anything about a particular rider's doping methods based on the Sysmex story. Not clear that the UCI ever bought one and not a shred of reliable evidence that Armstrong paid for it.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Leinders was not worried about getting caught. From the original news source:
Confidential papers show that topriders and teammanagers were invited to come to the UCI headquarters in Switzerland where UCI’s chief doctor Mario Zorzoli gave them powerpoint presentations showing UCI’s anti-doping strategy and giving them information about found suspect values. Other riders were called, either by Zorzoli or by Lon Schattenberg, Dutch member of the UCI anti-doping commission.

Dutch riders were warned as well. Karsten Kroon confirms to Vrij Nederland that Lon Schattenberg called him in 2004 to inform him about his abnormal bloodvalues. Kroon was riding for the Rabobank cycling team at the time.

https://www.vn.nl/hein-verbruggen-uci-for-years-cycling-federation-warned-armstrong-and-other-riders-with-suspect-values/

Maybe Leinders didn't fear his riders being sent home, but in the end they couldn't use as much blood as some of their rivals and therefore performed less. By the way, Armstrong "offering" UCI with a Sysmex machine makes sense : if he had an undetectable EPO or a masking agent for EPO, he could fly far from the Off-score / retics threshold while his rivals were playing with fire or had to be careful. Levi and Hamilton were almost popped for high Off-score too and probably couldn't use as much blood bags as they wanted http://www.bicycling.com/did-levi-leipheimer-dope-2005-tour. That's how Lance won back the arm race after 2003 IMHO.

There isn't really any reason at all to believe the Sysmex story. What we know is that Armstrong "donated" a **** ton of money to the UCI. Much later, after all this was exposed, Fat Pat trotted out the Sysmex machine story, and didn't let anyone take a close look or photo of the receipt.

It was a ****** story from the get-go. Most observers naturally suspect it was trotted out to mask a bribe. There are further reports of other "donations" and financial connections between Armstrong and Verdruggen.

Point is that I wouldn't try and extrapolate anything about a particular rider's doping methods based on the Sysmex story. Not clear that the UCI ever bought one and not a shred of reliable evidence that Armstrong paid for it.

Whilst Lance wasn't into getting nabbed himself he most certainly wanted other riders who might have been doping better the he was to face more scrutiny and testing. Enter stage right Sysmex Machine, Mayo and Hamilton being obvious victims.

Ashenden claims he saw the machine and in fact it was 1 of 2 machine at the UCI, one apparently donated by Lance.

I do agree that there is a lot of BS with the story, still to this day it doesn't add up, its more likely that the machine made a good cover for the donation that went on lap dances.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Leinders was not worried about getting caught. From the original news source:
Confidential papers show that topriders and teammanagers were invited to come to the UCI headquarters in Switzerland where UCI’s chief doctor Mario Zorzoli gave them powerpoint presentations showing UCI’s anti-doping strategy and giving them information about found suspect values. Other riders were called, either by Zorzoli or by Lon Schattenberg, Dutch member of the UCI anti-doping commission.

Dutch riders were warned as well. Karsten Kroon confirms to Vrij Nederland that Lon Schattenberg called him in 2004 to inform him about his abnormal bloodvalues. Kroon was riding for the Rabobank cycling team at the time.

https://www.vn.nl/hein-verbruggen-uci-for-years-cycling-federation-warned-armstrong-and-other-riders-with-suspect-values/

Maybe Leinders didn't fear his riders being sent home, but in the end they couldn't use as much blood as some of their rivals and therefore performed less. By the way, Armstrong "offering" UCI with a Sysmex machine makes sense : if he had an undetectable EPO or a masking agent for EPO, he could fly far from the Off-score / retics threshold while his rivals were playing with fire or had to be careful. Levi and Hamilton were almost popped for high Off-score too and probably couldn't use as much blood bags as they wanted http://www.bicycling.com/did-levi-leipheimer-dope-2005-tour. That's how Lance won back the arm race after 2003 IMHO.

There isn't really any reason at all to believe the Sysmex story. What we know is that Armstrong "donated" a **** ton of money to the UCI. Much later, after all this was exposed, Fat Pat trotted out the Sysmex machine story, and didn't let anyone take a close look or photo of the receipt.

It was a ****** story from the get-go. Most observers naturally suspect it was trotted out to mask a bribe. There are further reports of other "donations" and financial connections between Armstrong and Verdruggen.

Point is that I wouldn't try and extrapolate anything about a particular rider's doping methods based on the Sysmex story. Not clear that the UCI ever bought one and not a shred of reliable evidence that Armstrong paid for it.

Whilst Lance wasn't into getting nabbed himself he most certainly wanted other riders who might have been doping better the he was to face more scrutiny and testing. Enter stage right Sysmex Machine, Mayo and Hamilton being obvious victims.

Ashenden claims he saw the machine and in fact it was 1 of 2 machine at the UCI, one apparently donated by Lance.

I do agree that there is a lot of BS with the story, still to this day it doesn't add up, its more likely that the machine made a good cover for the donation that went on lap dances.

I can't reconcile the first two paragraphs with the last–you seem to be making an argument that the story is grounded in reality then completely backing off that. The latter makes sense.

Regarding the first, did Lance want other riders caught? Maybe, we don't know. Seems fair to assume (or not), and he made the odd comment about it. No tie to the bribe other than pure speculation. The second one only claims that there actually was a Sysmex machine(s) at the UCI, but in no way verifies who bought it, when, or why. I don't see this as evidence of anything one way or another other than the UCI may have had these machines.

The last is the rather obvious conclusion. He was bribing the UCI, and the Sysmex machine was a cover story that was rolled out after the bribe was uncovered. The Sysmex story is misdirection, meant to divert attention away from a rather obvious bribe. What the UCI did or didn't do with the money is immaterial and unknown. Again, there are many other references to financial dealings between LA and Verdruggen beyond the one bribe that was found out.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Leinders was not worried about getting caught. From the original news source:
Confidential papers show that topriders and teammanagers were invited to come to the UCI headquarters in Switzerland where UCI’s chief doctor Mario Zorzoli gave them powerpoint presentations showing UCI’s anti-doping strategy and giving them information about found suspect values. Other riders were called, either by Zorzoli or by Lon Schattenberg, Dutch member of the UCI anti-doping commission.

Dutch riders were warned as well. Karsten Kroon confirms to Vrij Nederland that Lon Schattenberg called him in 2004 to inform him about his abnormal bloodvalues. Kroon was riding for the Rabobank cycling team at the time.

https://www.vn.nl/hein-verbruggen-uci-for-years-cycling-federation-warned-armstrong-and-other-riders-with-suspect-values/

Maybe Leinders didn't fear his riders being sent home, but in the end they couldn't use as much blood as some of their rivals and therefore performed less. By the way, Armstrong "offering" UCI with a Sysmex machine makes sense : if he had an undetectable EPO or a masking agent for EPO, he could fly far from the Off-score / retics threshold while his rivals were playing with fire or had to be careful. Levi and Hamilton were almost popped for high Off-score too and probably couldn't use as much blood bags as they wanted http://www.bicycling.com/did-levi-leipheimer-dope-2005-tour. That's how Lance won back the arm race after 2003 IMHO.

There isn't really any reason at all to believe the Sysmex story. What we know is that Armstrong "donated" a **** ton of money to the UCI. Much later, after all this was exposed, Fat Pat trotted out the Sysmex machine story, and didn't let anyone take a close look or photo of the receipt.

It was a ****** story from the get-go. Most observers naturally suspect it was trotted out to mask a bribe. There are further reports of other "donations" and financial connections between Armstrong and Verdruggen.

Point is that I wouldn't try and extrapolate anything about a particular rider's doping methods based on the Sysmex story. Not clear that the UCI ever bought one and not a shred of reliable evidence that Armstrong paid for it.

Whilst Lance wasn't into getting nabbed himself he most certainly wanted other riders who might have been doping better the he was to face more scrutiny and testing. Enter stage right Sysmex Machine, Mayo and Hamilton being obvious victims.

Ashenden claims he saw the machine and in fact it was 1 of 2 machine at the UCI, one apparently donated by Lance.

I do agree that there is a lot of BS with the story, still to this day it doesn't add up, its more likely that the machine made a good cover for the donation that went on lap dances.

I can't reconcile the first two paragraphs with the last–you seem to be making an argument that the story is grounded in reality then completely backing off that. The latter makes sense.

Regarding the first, did Lance want other riders caught? Maybe, we don't know. Seems fair to assume (or not), and he made the odd comment about it. No tie to the bribe other than pure speculation. The second one only claims that there actually was a Sysmex machine(s) at the UCI, but in no way verifies who bought it, when, or why. I don't see this as evidence of anything one way or another other than the UCI may have had these machines.

The last is the rather obvious conclusion. He was bribing the UCI, and the Sysmex machine was a cover story that was rolled out after the bribe was uncovered. The Sysmex story is misdirection, meant to divert attention away from a rather obvious bribe. What the UCI did or didn't do with the money is immaterial and unknown. Again, there are many other references to financial dealings between LA and Verdruggen beyond the one bribe that was found out.

Hamilton described in his book how Armstrong went to the UCI about him. The 'not nornal' catchphrase came from Armstrong to the UCI, he was convinced Mayo was doing more than just regular blood doping and EPO.

Please do keep up.

 

[red_flanders]

I'm rather obviously aware of the Hamilton incident. You are reading the intent of "not normal" in that context incorrectly. None of this is remotely enough to give credence to the idea that Armstrong actually bought the UCI a sysmex machine.

Whatever the case with the bribe, to use this story as some kind of evidence as to what Leinders did makes no sense. It is the thinnest, least believable information on which to base such a notion.

But I'm well aware that such observations will make no difference to whatever agenda you're proffering these days.

 

[ciranda]

Re: Re:

Also not relevant to the main thread but Rasmussen's 2007 heroics were hardly out of the blue considering the two previous years he had two polka dot jerseys, two stage wins and a top ten in two Tours. He was already a top climber, he just had to learn to time trial, which was mostly practise and position considering he was already doping big time, and there was a massive clearout of big contenders due to Puerto as well so the field was a lot more open.

Why was Rasmussen so dominant in 2007 ?

2005 : Rasmussen wasn't allowed to use his 2nd blood bag by his team because his retycs were too low
2006 : All the BBs he had banked at Freibug Clinic were thrown by the doctors, he managed to have one for TdF
2007 : He had all the BBs needed with Matschinger in Vienna, made a trial during Giro to see if 2x330ml didn't affect too much his blood values, trained hard hidden in the Dolomites with Testosterone/EPO... during TdF he had Dynepo to avoid low retycs and cortisone with TUE. Everything was perfect - hence his dominance - until Cassani spoke.

Rasmussen was later (sept 2007) found positive for Dynepo, but one year after Landis, I think Pat would have swept it under the carpet, unlike Dekker who was the perfect sacrificial lamb (young, arrogant, without protection...)

yeah, Danish Cycling Union's breach of privacy + Cassani's praise in RAI's transmission of stage eight + the decisive factor: someone who watched that stage on italian tv contacted and told the journalist Jung what Cassani had said = his tv news segment, nothing else, made de Rooij decide to terminate.

I would still very much like to know the identity of the person who told Jung, who was a terrible non-reporter.

 

[jahn]

I read Hamilton's book and the "Not normal" catchphrase originated in the Motorola team bus by Armstrong out of frustration after repeatedly getting walloped by dopers during their early days with the team.

 

[Norks74]

Re:

I read Hamilton's book and the "Not normal" catchphrase originated in the Motorola team bus by Armstrong out of frustration after repeatedly getting walloped by dopers during their early days with the team.

C'est ne pas normal

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

I read Hamilton's book and the "Not normal" catchphrase originated in the Motorola team bus by Armstrong out of frustration after repeatedly getting walloped by dopers during their early days with the team.

C'est ne pas normal

ce n'est pas normal

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: Re:

Maybe Leinders didn't fear his riders being sent home, but in the end they couldn't use as much blood as some of their rivals and therefore performed less. By the way, Armstrong "offering" UCI with a Sysmex machine makes sense : if he had an undetectable EPO or a masking agent for EPO, he could fly far from the Off-score / retics threshold while his rivals were playing with fire or had to be careful. Levi and Hamilton were almost popped for high Off-score too and probably couldn't use as much blood bags as they wanted http://www.bicycling.com/did-levi-leipheimer-dope-2005-tour. That's how Lance won back the arm race after 2003 IMHO.

This is BS. Lance paid for the Sysmex machine because some notable Spanish riders were doping with other people's blood. He (and others) did not want to go down that rout because of the increased risks. Hamilton and Leipheimer were warned of high off scores because they needed to jack their values to the moon to bring their performance up to the level where they could be competitive with the elite of the sport. They also needed results throughout the year because they could not match Armstrong at the Tour. Armstrong was simply more talented than either of those guys--a lot more talented. Lance was doping less than most other riders. Ferrari's program had him doing the minimum required to meet the required numbers. It was the same with Floyd; once he had a few solid years of training with the volume and intensity needed for Europe, he found did not need much dope to hone his edge.

BTW. Floyd just did an interview with L'Equipe. Might appear this coming week. He was asked if he thought Froome was doping. Instead of answering, he laughed and the interviewer laughed along with him.

 

[This Charming Man]

Re: Re:

Maybe Leinders didn't fear his riders being sent home, but in the end they couldn't use as much blood as some of their rivals and therefore performed less. By the way, Armstrong "offering" UCI with a Sysmex machine makes sense : if he had an undetectable EPO or a masking agent for EPO, he could fly far from the Off-score / retics threshold while his rivals were playing with fire or had to be careful. Levi and Hamilton were almost popped for high Off-score too and probably couldn't use as much blood bags as they wanted http://www.bicycling.com/did-levi-leipheimer-dope-2005-tour. That's how Lance won back the arm race after 2003 IMHO.

This is BS. Lance paid for the Sysmex machine because some notable Spanish riders were doping with other people's blood. He (and others) did not want to go down that rout because of the increased risks. Hamilton and Leipheimer were warned of high off scores because they needed to jack their values to the moon to bring their performance up to the level where they could be competitive with the elite of the sport. They also needed results throughout the year because they could not match Armstrong at the Tour. Armstrong was simply more talented than either of those guys--a lot more talented. Lance was doping less than most other riders. Ferrari's program had him doing the minimum required to meet the required numbers. It was the same with Floyd; once he had a few solid years of training with the volume and intensity needed for Europe, he found did not need much dope to hone his edge.

BTW. Floyd just did an interview with L'Equipe. Might appear this coming week. He was asked if he thought Froome was doping. Instead of answering, he laughed and the interviewer laughed along with him.

Hilareous, that some people think that Lance, and other PED users did not train....people who do not recognize, how tough cycling is...did he train as hard as Greg LeMond did, darned right Lance did.

 

[Nomad]

Re: Re:

Maybe Leinders didn't fear his riders being sent home, but in the end they couldn't use as much blood as some of their rivals and therefore performed less. By the way, Armstrong "offering" UCI with a Sysmex machine makes sense : if he had an undetectable EPO or a masking agent for EPO, he could fly far from the Off-score / retics threshold while his rivals were playing with fire or had to be careful. Levi and Hamilton were almost popped for high Off-score too and probably couldn't use as much blood bags as they wanted http://www.bicycling.com/did-levi-leipheimer-dope-2005-tour. That's how Lance won back the arm race after 2003 IMHO.

This is BS. Lance paid for the Sysmex machine because some notable Spanish riders were doping with other people's blood. He (and others) did not want to go down that rout because of the increased risks. Hamilton and Leipheimer were warned of high off scores because they needed to jack their values to the moon to bring their performance up to the level where they could be competitive with the elite of the sport. They also needed results throughout the year because they could not match Armstrong at the Tour. Armstrong was simply more talented than either of those guys--a lot more talented. Lance was doping less than most other riders. Ferrari's program had him doing the minimum required to meet the required numbers. It was the same with Floyd; once he had a few solid years of training with the volume and intensity needed for Europe, he found did not need much dope to hone his edge.

BTW. Floyd just did an interview with L'Equipe. Might appear this coming week. He was asked if he thought Froome was doping. Instead of answering, he laughed and the interviewer laughed along with him.

Hilareous, that some people think that Lance, and other PED users did not train....people who do not recognize, how tough cycling is...did he train as hard as Greg LeMond did, darned right Lance did.

I think LA trained and prepared even harder than LeMond. He paid meticulous attention to detail on his diet (he weighed his food and would measure the precise amount of carbs, fats & proteins that he needed for a particular stage). He completed grueling hours of high mountain training sessions, hours of wind tunnel testing, recon of courses, etc. He studied his opponents strenghts & weaknesses.

Furthermore, LA's transformation to GC contender isn't that profound when you compare his to the "overnight sensation" of Froome's in 2011. But yet, LA haters continually mock him about his "donkey turned racehorse" transformation when Froome is the one that should hold #1, by and far, for that characterization...no one in the history of cycling has ever come close to that miracle. Lol.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Maybe Leinders didn't fear his riders being sent home, but in the end they couldn't use as much blood as some of their rivals and therefore performed less. By the way, Armstrong "offering" UCI with a Sysmex machine makes sense : if he had an undetectable EPO or a masking agent for EPO, he could fly far from the Off-score / retics threshold while his rivals were playing with fire or had to be careful. Levi and Hamilton were almost popped for high Off-score too and probably couldn't use as much blood bags as they wanted http://www.bicycling.com/did-levi-leipheimer-dope-2005-tour. That's how Lance won back the arm race after 2003 IMHO.

This is BS. Lance paid for the Sysmex machine because some notable Spanish riders were doping with other people's blood. He (and others) did not want to go down that rout because of the increased risks. Hamilton and Leipheimer were warned of high off scores because they needed to jack their values to the moon to bring their performance up to the level where they could be competitive with the elite of the sport. They also needed results throughout the year because they could not match Armstrong at the Tour. Armstrong was simply more talented than either of those guys--a lot more talented. Lance was doping less than most other riders. Ferrari's program had him doing the minimum required to meet the required numbers. It was the same with Floyd; once he had a few solid years of training with the volume and intensity needed for Europe, he found did not need much dope to hone his edge.

BTW. Floyd just did an interview with L'Equipe. Might appear this coming week. He was asked if he thought Froome was doping. Instead of answering, he laughed and the interviewer laughed along with him.

Hilareous, that some people think that Lance, and other PED users did not train....people who do not recognize, how tough cycling is...did he train as hard as Greg LeMond did, darned right Lance did.

I think LA trained and prepared even harder than LeMond. He paid meticulous attention to detail on his diet (he weighed his food and would measure the precise amount of carbs, fats & proteins that he needed for a particular stage). He completed grueling hours of high mountain training sessions, hours of wind tunnel testing, recon of courses, etc. He studied his opponents strenghts & weaknesses.

Furthermore, LA's transformation to GC contender isn't that profound when you compare his to the "overnight sensation" of Froome's in 2011. But yet, LA haters continually mock him about his "donkey turned racehorse" transformation when Froome is the one that should hold #1, by and far, for that characterization...no one in the history of cycling has ever come close to that miracle. Lol.

I have to agree with you on Froome taking the #1 position on the donkey-to-racehorse charts, however, Armstrong was only able to train to the point where a TDF title was a formality thanks to horrendous amounts of PEDs.

Armstrong's normal career trajectory should have been as a very solid classics rider/stage hunter with a reasonable TT. Think Gerrans or Kolobnev with Chavanel's TT and you'd be about right.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

This is BS. Lance paid for the Sysmex machine because some notable Spanish riders were doping with other people's blood.

You post that as if there is ample evidence and there STILL isn't. Given all the bribery that has happened over the years, the chances a Sysmex Machine was actually purchased with Armstrong's money is slim.

Armstrong was simply more talented than either of those guys--a lot more talented. Lance was doping less than most other riders.

Do you have some facts to support this claim? Because no one knows who was doping more or less.

We DO know Armstrong was doping all the way back to his days as a Junior under Chris Carmichael. I think it was a story at Sports Illustrated that described his abuse of Testosterone. So, if there are clean wins, it's an office park criterium win.

And then there are the not-very-famous USA Cycling Training Camp test results that show other athletes performing better than Armstrong. They also show national elite test scores among Armstrong's cohorts, but not much beyond that.

So, it's extremely doubtful Armstrong was naturally gifted to elite international level.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

This is BS. Lance paid for the Sysmex machine because some notable Spanish riders were doping with other people's blood.

You post that as if there is ample evidence and there STILL isn't. Given all the bribery that has happened over the years, the chances a Sysmex Machine was actually purchased with Armstrong's money is slim.

Armstrong was simply more talented than either of those guys--a lot more talented. Lance was doping less than most other riders.

Do you have some facts to support this claim? Because no one knows who was doping more or less.

We DO know Armstrong was doping all the way back to his days as a Junior under Chris Carmichael. I think it was a story at Sports Illustrated that described his abuse of Testosterone. So, if there are clean wins, it's an office park criterium win.

And then there are the not-very-famous USA Cycling Training Camp test results that show other athletes performing better than Armstrong. They also show national elite test scores among Armstrong's cohorts, but not much beyond that.

So, it's extremely doubtful Armstrong was naturally gifted to elite international level.

I don't think there is any doubt Armstrong was a phenomenal athlete. At 21 he won the Worlds on cortisone and a snickers bar. It was a brutal course and he won alone in the rain. I think it's a darn shame we didn't get to see Armstrong the one day rider rather than the buzzed up Tour rider he became.

 

[Nomad]

Re: Re:

Maybe Leinders didn't fear his riders being sent home, but in the end they couldn't use as much blood as some of their rivals and therefore performed less. By the way, Armstrong "offering" UCI with a Sysmex machine makes sense : if he had an undetectable EPO or a masking agent for EPO, he could fly far from the Off-score / retics threshold while his rivals were playing with fire or had to be careful. Levi and Hamilton were almost popped for high Off-score too and probably couldn't use as much blood bags as they wanted http://www.bicycling.com/did-levi-leipheimer-dope-2005-tour. That's how Lance won back the arm race after 2003 IMHO.

This is BS. Lance paid for the Sysmex machine because some notable Spanish riders were doping with other people's blood. He (and others) did not want to go down that rout because of the increased risks. Hamilton and Leipheimer were warned of high off scores because they needed to jack their values to the moon to bring their performance up to the level where they could be competitive with the elite of the sport. They also needed results throughout the year because they could not match Armstrong at the Tour. Armstrong was simply more talented than either of those guys--a lot more talented. Lance was doping less than most other riders. Ferrari's program had him doing the minimum required to meet the required numbers. It was the same with Floyd; once he had a few solid years of training with the volume and intensity needed for Europe, he found did not need much dope to hone his edge.

BTW. Floyd just did an interview with L'Equipe. Might appear this coming week. He was asked if he thought Froome was doping. Instead of answering, he laughed and the interviewer laughed along with him.

Hilareous, that some people think that Lance, and other PED users did not train....people who do not recognize, how tough cycling is...did he train as hard as Greg LeMond did, darned right Lance did.

I think LA trained and prepared even harder than LeMond. He paid meticulous attention to detail on his diet (he weighed his food and would measure the precise amount of carbs, fats & proteins that he needed for a particular stage). He completed grueling hours of high mountain training sessions, hours of wind tunnel testing, recon of courses, etc. He studied his opponents strenghts & weaknesses.

Furthermore, LA's transformation to GC contender isn't that profound when you compare his to the "overnight sensation" of Froome's in 2011. But yet, LA haters continually mock him about his "donkey turned racehorse" transformation when Froome is the one that should hold #1, by and far, for that characterization...no one in the history of cycling has ever come close to that miracle. Lol.

I have to agree with you on Froome taking the #1 position on the donkey-to-racehorse charts, however, Armstrong was only able to train to the point where a TDF title was a formality thanks to horrendous amounts of PEDs.

Armstrong's normal career trajectory should have been as a very solid classics rider/stage hunter with a reasonable TT. Think Gerrans or Kolobnev with Chavanel's TT and you'd be about right.

I agree on his career trajectory...and other than no TT ability, that's what he was showing pre-cancer. He might have even been a formidable Green jersey contender and given Zable a run for his money. I don't think he was such the no-talent "chump" that LA haters make him out to be.

I do disgree that was he taking horrendous amounts of PEDs. What was the standard operating PEDs of that time period? EPO/blood doping, HGH, testesterone/steriods, corticosteroids (maybe also amphetamines?). Was Lance taking more or less than other top GC contenders back then? Does anyone really know? However, I don't think it could be anymore than what Pantani has listed on his Wikipedia page (and he's touted as cycling's all-time best climber).

And when comes to the 02-vector doping side of the equation, LA wasn't as high-octane as some of the riders in the pre-50% Hct limit era. As everyone here already knows, he could only boost from from his baseline 39/40 Hct up to the threshold 50%, as opposed to the earlier riders that could go from the low to mid-40s up to the stratosphere of the upper 50s & beyond. Talk about drug-induced polycthemia...I'm surprised some of those riders made it through their careers without a major coronary event.

People also forget that according to LA's own admission, and corroborated by teammates, he went on EPO after consulting with Ferrari in the "spring of 95." His GC Tour results results that summer: 36th...no "overnight sensation" and hardly very impressive. So, post-cancer Ferrari must have reorganized his program and restructured his training accordingly. No doubt LA was committed and adapted very well to the Ferrari/Carmchael training program at the higher Hct levels.

Final thought, and bit off topic: LA doped as much as the other GT contenders of that era, was a high responder to O2-vector doping and wouldn't have won a single Tour without Ferrari's program...nothing new there. But what's funny is the constant mocking of his transformation when Froome's miracle remains oblivious by many British cycling fans. Now that Froome's won a few Tours, he's become this "holier-than-thou" hero to many of the fans over there while Lance is kept in the spectrum of the no-talent "American chump" turned Tour champion.

Froome prior to 2011 showed absolutely nothing; no climbing ability, no sprinting ability, no TT ability, no classics ability, no wins, etc. That year in the Tour de Suisse he finishes 47th. A few months later at the Tour of Poland he finishes 85th. And a month after that at the Vuelta, he finishes 2nd by only 13 seconds to pure climber Juan Cobo in a very mountainous GT. He also destroyed Denis Menchov (5th), who has a known history of blood doping, by over 3 1/2 mins!

And people continue to mock Armstrong’s transformation? Please.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Re: Re:

We DO know Armstrong was doping all the way back to his days as a Junior under Chris Carmichael. I think it was a story at Sports Illustrated that described his abuse of Testosterone. So, if there are clean wins, it's an office park criterium win.

Wheelmen recycled a lot of old information but I found it a good book in how it placed a lot of historical information about Armstrong's early youth together, very informative. And from a later period - the links to Tom Weisel I found more detailed than elsewhere and highly informative. Albergotti and O'Connell are established journalists and well versed in what they can and cannot get past the legal read of a draft book.

I very definitely read all the part about Armstrong's youth and the first hand testimonies from contemporary associates to the change in character displayed by the early teen-age Armstrong, all of which matched classical " 'roid-rage" symptoms, as the pair of authors laying it on a plate for anyone who can think, but it needs to be have the text between the lines understood. This was matched with a character profile they laid out earlier of the pre-adult Armstrong living with mother and step-father, in an environment that encouraged the thought process to do whatever it takes to win because life is never going to give you a fair deal. Playing fair is for suckers.

Why put so much about those aspects in the book ? The obvious answer was that they had no conclusive factual evidence of the early teen-age Armstrong doping but they would lay it all out there, the hypotheses tested and proven with circumstantial evidence by the bucket load - cycling never corrupted Armstrong; he had been corrupted way before then.

So sadly, not even office block car park wins on Saturday afternoon get a pass.

As to who would be best if they all rode clean - I put all my "fond" memories of Eddy in the recycling bin long, long time ago. It makes life a lot less painful.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

I very definitely read all the part about Armstrong's youth and the first hand testimonies from contemporary associates to the change in character displayed by the early teen-age Armstrong, all of which matched classical " 'roid-rage" symptoms, as the pair of authors laying it on a plate for anyone who can think, but it needs to be have the text between the lines understood.

'Roid rage? Or pubescence? Show me a teen who doesn't display those symptoms...

 

[Freddythefrog]

Your point has validity, but I think Albergotti and O'Connell wrote enough to convince me that this was no normal teen-age pubescence.

Previously, I had been in the camp that believed it was only bumping into to CC that had Armstrong turn to the dark arts.

 

[Irondan]

No doubt that this is stimulating conversation, but I had to look twice at the thread topic because I didn't know if this was the LA3 thread or the Froome talk only thread, my surprise was that it was neither.

Please post comments in their proper threads...

 

[fmk_RoI]

So, the Dekker book is out in English in the UK now, in the US at Christmas.

Paul Kimmage mentions it in the Sindo today