Dertie Contador's allergies and his TUEs

[Oldman]

The cat 4 climb and 1 KM of false flat made it a course good for AC. He won by a whopping 2 seconds. He was fastest at the top of the climb. That being said, he's always been a good TT'er check his palamares (sp) since he was a neo-pro.

Here's the profile:

Just wondering how many TT's under 20km he's won. I'm lazy so would some of you energetic wiki-punks find out?

 

[barn yard]

Anyhoo. You can disagree with me all you want, but it still is much more proof to me of AC's 'preparation' than any of the silly stuff the strange man with the nylons over his head was suggesting.

again, you seem to be missing the fact that contador was/is already a very accomplished TTer, plus the fact that there is not a whole lot of competition at this race.

this result is not even close to suggesting *maybe* an enhanced performance, there is absolutely nothing at all to see here.

 

[Publicus]

Just wondering how many TT's under 20km he's won. I'm lazy so would some of you energetic wiki-punks find out?

I did a lazy search over at Cycling Quotient. A couple of victories, few top tens. Basically, he's been good at the short ITT/prologue's his entire professional career.

First pro win was at the Tour of Pologne ITT, which was 19KM. 5th, 2004 Paris-Nice ITT (13KM). 7thM (+4") 2005 Paris Nice prologue (4KM). 1st, 2005 Vuelta a Pais Vasco ITT (9.3KM). 4th (+3"), 2006 Paris-Nice Prologue (4.8KM). 5th (+2"), 2007 Paris Nice Prologue (4.7KM). 5th (+6"), 2007 Vuelta a Castilla y Leon ITT (10KM). 2nd (+2"), 2007 Vuelta a Pais Vasco ITT (14KM). 18th (+8"), 2007 Dauphine Libere Prologue (4.2KM). 15th (+35"), 2007 Tour de France Prologue (7.9KM). 1st, 2008 Vuelta a Castilla y Leon (9.7KM). 1st, 2009 Paris-Nice Prologue (9.3KM). 2nd (+8"), Criterium Internationale ITT (12.1KM). 2nd (+18"), 2009 Tour de France (15.5KM). 2nd (+13"), 2010 Volta ao Algarve (17.2KM). 4th (+6"), 2010 Paris Nice Prologue (8KM). 2nd (+2"), 2010 Criterium International (7.7KM). 1st, 2010 Vuelta a Castilla y Leon (15.1KM).

 

[Franklin]

The epilepsy is over the top, it's very hard to see a cheater's angle in that one.

But the TUE for Asthma and Allergies is interesting in itself. Not because it is Contador, but because it seems to be pretty common. Now I do know that certain types of Asthma actually have a "positive" effect on duration sports.

Some people (I'm one of them) have less Bronchitis when cycling as everything "opens up". Now I have an extremely mild Asthma (I wouldn't have known if the doctor didn't tell me), but he also said it does cause a slight training effect as I need a bit more effort to breathe when just doing normal stuff. I have no idea what's the truth of it, but I do know I do breathe easier when exerting and I always was good at endurance sport (could very well be between my ears/coincidence).

I know of at least one Asthmatic ultra endurance sporter (Tri Athlete Axel Koenders) who said the same thing. Anyone who knows the truth/bs of this?

Anyway, if true it would somewhat explain the asthma percentage in endurance sport.

About Pollen allergy: If you have it I can't see you competing when it's pollen season. As far as I have noticed Medicine's just can't stop the allergy completely. Maybe my allergy is worse than theirs, but I just don't understand how they manage to even stay with the peloton. And note that my doctor let me try quite a few medicines as I'm not restricted by doping controls^^

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

So the fact that there is a risk of a certain affliction in his family that is evidenced by his younger brother and by Contador's cerebral hemmorage (sp)
and the medication and regular check ups that are necessary to monitor his condition leads you to believe that he must be on the juice using the TUE as his cover?

Drum roll - the two - Dertie's condition and his brother's condition are unrelated. The brother has Cerebral Palsy - which is nothing to do with what Dertie allegedly has. So to draw a link between the two is incorrect.

Incidentally, I find it amusing that, the 'he has a health condition so he won't dope' is wheeled out - didn't we used to hear that about the uniballer? 'He's survived cancer so there is no way he would risk his health by doping.'

I'm not a fan of any particular rider, but I'd love to hear how Contador's story has changed across time.

At the time there was a lot of comment about how it was linked into EPO. There was also some disagreement about how the stroke was caused, at the time it was said to have been caused by the fall. Fall - resulting in stroke. Others said that the stroke caused the fall. The genetic illness story came later. The removal of the EPO angle (and considering he was riding for LSW under Saiz (hardly a clean team), makes it a fair question about the circumstances).

Also, with French investigation into Astana from last year and epilepsy medications being some of the drugs found, along with insulin and those for manic depression.

Publicus - so when a rider says he has genital warts and needs a TUE, or an invisible twin, or that his elevated T/E ratio is caused by drinking too much whiskey we are supposed to just believe it because this is what the official source says? Why should we believe a rider who is at best evasive about his role in OP - promises a DNA sample and then refuses etc etc.

I am not quite sure why there is so much anger in this thread about questioning the stories teams, riders and their PR people put out - surely if there is one thing we have learnt over the years it is that riders will do anything to gain an advantage and to manipulate the system. I don't see why Dertie should be above being questioned anymore than any other rider, or why his word should be taken anymore seriously than say Uniballer, Hamilton, or Jesus Rosendo. If people really don't like this kind of thread then they should just ignore it.

Look at Hamilton's mix of drugs - why should we not question whether any meds a rider has are used for PED/Masking benefit?

Dr Fuentes indicated that Hamilton should start taking EPO from December 21, with 2000 units daily, up until Christmas Eve, and then on alternate days until January 9. On the 14th of January, before his first training camp with CSC, he was instructed to withdraw blood. On January 24, he was to start with anabolics. In March, after racing had started, he was to take HMG - a hormone used by menopausal women - to mask the anabolics, as well as taking growth hormone and insulin.

If you want an example of how widespread TUEs are

Sixty percent of the 105 riders subject to testing were issued therapuetic use exemptions by the International Cycling Union (UCI):

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/blog/therapeutic-use-exemption-loophole/18/

Franklin - interesting stuff on both counts. Thanks

 

[Publicus]

At the time there was a lot of comment about how it was linked into EPO. There was also some disagreement about how the stroke was caused, at the time it was said to have been caused by the fall. Fall - resulting in stroke. Others said that the stroke caused the fall. The genetic illness story came later. The removal of the EPO angle (and considering he was riding for LSW under Saiz (hardly a clean team), makes it a fair question about the circumstances).


Publicus - so when a rider says he has genital warts and needs a TUE, or an invisible twin, or that his elevated T/E ratio is caused by drinking too much whiskey we are supposed to just believe it because this is what the official source says? Why should we believe a rider who is at best evasive about his role in OP - promises a DNA sample and then refuses etc etc.

It sounds to me like the commentators were stupid. A fall cannot cause a blockage in an artery (a stroke) or an aneurysm (thinning of blood vessel wall/rupture blood vessel). The congenial disease was discovered as a result of the aneurysm. It sounds to me that the commentators were looking for a more salacious story and failed.

As for what a rider says or does, unless you have some more evidence (beyond your own cynicism) then you are pretty much left to examining his words and deeds. So if their story doesn't seem plausible, one can view their statements with a healthy dose of skepticism. So far as I can tell, you've decided that there is some question about the validity of AC's allergies and the need for anti-seizure medication. That both are being used to obtain PEDs or mask his use of other PEDs. Your proof? Nada. Nathan. Nothing. Zilch. Zip. Zero.

Is it impossible that AC doesn't have allergies? Sure it is. Has he behaved like the allergies are an excuse? Not from what I've seen--the allergies look like the real deal. Does the insertion of a titanium plate into the brain cause seizures? According to what I've read as a result of this thread, that is one of the side effects. Your allegation that there was some amount of gossip about what caused AC's fall sounds normal when folks are trying to fill the void. Out of the loop? Fill it with what you think it is plausible. That AC's version came out after the incident, and not before, is not proof of anything but that AC had no knowledge of the congenial disease before the incident. What is not proof of is a cover up.

I do believe, at least on the allergies/anti-seizure med angle, you are missing the mark. And for the record, I thought Floyd was full of crap when he started spewing all of those nonsense excuses about his testosterone levels.

 

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

Is it just possible that Contador is just a doper too?

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Er no. There is a long history of cyclists abusing TUEs to gain access to PEDs/Masking substances. It is perfectly legitimate to question:

i) Whether the reasons given by the riders for their TUEs are legitimate - this goes for Dertie, it goes for Uniballer, it goes for Landis, it goes for Hamilton, it goes for Rosendo. Is there any proof that Rosendo is lying about his piles? Should we not have questioned Hamilton's vanishing twin story?

Why should we believe Dertie but not Rosendo? Why should we believe Dertie but not the Uniballer?

ii) What the benefits/disadvantages of each med is? We know from the Fuentes case that riders take a cocktail of drugs - many of which on the face of it would seem to have few performance enhancing benefits. So why shouldn't we discuss the topic?

I would ask the same question of any rider who was claiming things - if it were Cuddles, Menchov, Wiggins, Sastre. For someone a rider to be as dominant as Dertie is, despite having as many health problems as he has, is very impressive, but equally, given his team history (LSW, Disco, Astana) and his links to OP, the Epilepsy drugs in the Astana bin story, it is perfectly reasonable to query any potential doping connection.

If you think that the stories are genuine then fine, if you know that there are no benefits to taking epilepsy medicine, pollen allergy medication then fine. If you think that it is all above board then fine, but by that same extent you have no more proof that everything is above board (other than what Dertie and his PR people claim), than I have of everything being underhand.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Is it just possible that Contador is just a doper too?

I will stipulate that he is as well as a couple hundred of his closest friends (or is it a couple thousand?).

Who are you certain of in the euro protour that IS not a doper?

How many threads have been started, beaten mercilessly into the ground and then another sprouts up like the weeds in my lawn?

 

[Oldman]

I did a lazy search over at Cycling Quotient. A couple of victories, few top tens. Basically, he's been good at the short ITT/prologue's his entire professional career.

First pro win was at the Tour of Pologne ITT, which was 19KM. 5th, 2004 Paris-Nice ITT (13KM). 7thM (+4") 2005 Paris Nice prologue (4KM). 1st, 2005 Vuelta a Pais Vasco ITT (9.3KM). 4th (+3"), 2006 Paris-Nice Prologue (4.8KM). 5th (+2"), 2007 Paris Nice Prologue (4.7KM). 5th (+6"), 2007 Vuelta a Castilla y Leon ITT (10KM). 2nd (+2"), 2007 Vuelta a Pais Vasco ITT (14KM). 18th (+8"), 2007 Dauphine Libere Prologue (4.2KM). 15th (+35"), 2007 Tour de France Prologue (7.9KM). 1st, 2008 Vuelta a Castilla y Leon (9.7KM). 1st, 2009 Paris-Nice Prologue (9.3KM). 2nd (+8"), Criterium Internationale ITT (12.1KM). 2nd (+18"), 2009 Tour de France (15.5KM). 2nd (+13"), 2010 Volta ao Algarve (17.2KM). 4th (+6"), 2010 Paris Nice Prologue (8KM). 2nd (+2"), 2010 Criterium International (7.7KM). 1st, 2010 Vuelta a Castilla y Leon (15.1KM).

Thanks. That identifies that this isn't a sudden talent and not evidence unto itself that he is a PED specialist. Unless his amateur palmares didn't support this and he turned serious "PRO" in '04. That's the old school way.

 

[pedaling squares]

There has been some criticism of the OP, but these are similar questions to what has been asked here often about Armstrong and his recovery from cancer. I don't find the seizure issue very suspicious, and Contador is hardly alone in his use of medicines for allergies. I shake my head when I read about the effects of common allergies from people who suffer from them. It's hard to believe that anyone could hang in the peleton let alone win a race, notwithstanding the use of medicines.

The issue for me is Contador's connection to Saiz and Bruyneel. We suspect he's a part of Puerto. We've heard about the Postal bus pulling over to refill the riders instead of the tank. Any reason to suspect that Bruyneel would stop these tactics when Contador was his lead man instead of Armstrong? We've heard about the products seized from Astana at the TdF. Whatever happened to that investigation by the way?

I figure Contador is a hugely talented and entertaining rider who is riding on top fuel. Just like his main competitors.

 

[Publicus]

Er no. There is a long history of cyclists abusing TUEs to gain access to PEDs/Masking substances. It is perfectly legitimate to question:

i) Whether the reasons given by the riders for their TUEs are legitimate - this goes for Dertie, it goes for Uniballer, it goes for Landis, it goes for Hamilton, it goes for Rosendo. Is there any proof that Rosendo is lying about his piles? Should we not have questioned Hamilton's vanishing twin story?

Why should we believe Dertie but not Rosendo? Why should we believe Dertie but not the Uniballer?

ii) What the benefits/disadvantages of each med is? We know from the Fuentes case that riders take a cocktail of drugs - many of which on the face of it would seem to have few performance enhancing benefits. So why shouldn't we discuss the topic?

I would ask the same question of any rider who was claiming things - if it were Cuddles, Menchov, Wiggins, Sastre. For someone a rider to be as dominant as Dertie is, despite having as many health problems as he has, is very impressive, but equally, given his team history (LSW, Disco, Astana) and his links to OP, the Epilepsy drugs in the Astana bin story, it is perfectly reasonable to query any potential doping connection.

If you think that the stories are genuine then fine, if you know that there are no benefits to taking epilepsy medicine, pollen allergy medication then fine. If you think that it is all above board then fine, but by that same extent you have no more proof that everything is above board (other than what Dertie and his PR people claim), than I have of everything being underhand.

My point is you haven't demonstrated that the stories are (or more than likely are) demonstrably false or pretext.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Alternatively, you've not demonstrated that the stories put out by Dertie are true, other than to cut and paste the party line.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Alternatively, you've not demonstrated that the stories put out by Dertie are true, other than to cut and paste the party line.

Well, you're the one bringing the accusations, so the burden of proof lies with you.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Who are you certain of in the euro protour that IS not a doper?

David Moncoutié.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Not really since we are on a discussion board not a court of law.

If someone is putting up an alibi then they need to have some corroboration for it. You can't just say 'here is a statement my PR drafted saying that I was 50 miles away at the time of the crime'.

 

[red_flanders]

There has been some criticism of the OP, but these are similar questions to what has been asked here often about Armstrong and his recovery from cancer. I don't find the seizure issue very suspicious, and Contador is hardly alone in his use of medicines for allergies. I shake my head when I read about the effects of common allergies from people who suffer from them. It's hard to believe that anyone could hang in the peleton let alone win a race, notwithstanding the use of medicines.

The issue for me is Contador's connection to Saiz and Bruyneel. We suspect he's a part of Puerto. We've heard about the Postal bus pulling over to refill the riders instead of the tank. Any reason to suspect that Bruyneel would stop these tactics when Contador was his lead man instead of Armstrong? We've heard about the products seized from Astana at the TdF. Whatever happened to that investigation by the way?

I figure Contador is a hugely talented and entertaining rider who is riding on top fuel. Just like his main competitors.

I think that pretty much covers it. NEXT?

 

[Publicus]

Alternatively, you've not demonstrated that the stories put out by Dertie are true, other than to cut and paste the party line.

That's not my job, nor is that possible without first hand knowledge. But then, of course, you knew that.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I think that pretty much covers it. NEXT?

Yeah really. Of course he dopes, he wouldn't ride as fast as or faster than all the other dopers otherwise. Do we really need a new thread about one particular doper every time some idiot tries to divert attention from his favorite doper by raising speculation about another one?
The Flandis situation is the thing worth focusing speculation on.

 

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

Yeah really. Of course he dopes, he wouldn't ride as fast as or faster than all the other dopers otherwise. Do we really need a new thread about one particular doper every time some idiot tries to divert attention from his favorite doper by raising speculation about another one?
The Flandis situation is the thing worth focusing speculation on.

finally someone get's it


yet people here think some of these guys DON'T dope...........

the real question you have to ask yourself is this.................. had FLANDIS........NOT got caught and continued to dope and win and make big money.............would he have done what he is doing now?

We all know the answer to that................... and THAT is my issue with him doing what he is doing......

nothing more than a sad man trying to bring everyone down since he went down.............

 

[Hugh Januss]

finally someone get's it


yet people here think some of these guys DON'T dope...........

the real question you have to ask yourself is this.................. had FLANDIS........NOT got caught and continued to dope and win and make big money.............would he have done what he is doing now?

We all know the answer to that................... and THAT is my issue with him doing what he is doing......

nothing more than a sad man trying to bring everyone down since he went down.............

For whatever reason it is worth it if the dark side of pro cycling is exposed for what it really is and Fat McWad and his whole crowd is thrown out. Not saying that will happen, but one can hope.
Floyd's confession is a worth a whole lot more than Millar's teary eyed mea culpa after (and only after) being caught red handed by the police (and before going back to doing the same things).

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Not really since we are on a discussion board not a court of law.

If someone is putting up an alibi then they need to have some corroboration for it. You can't just say 'here is a statement my PR drafted saying that I was 50 miles away at the time of the crime'.

It's not an issue of court of law vs. message board. The rules of logic aren't suddenly suspended just because you're on a message board. I'm not saying that I disagree with the assertion that Contador may be doping, but so far, you're only bringing innuendo to the table rather than anything remotely concrete.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

finally someone get's it


yet people here think some of these guys DON'T dope...........

the real question you have to ask yourself is this.................. had FLANDIS........NOT got caught and continued to dope and win and make big money.............would he have done what he is doing now?

We all know the answer to that................... and THAT is my issue with him doing what he is doing......

nothing more than a sad man trying to bring everyone down since he went down.............

He went down for doing the same danm thing everyone else was doing, one guy flies on private jets, the other sleeps on good samaritan's couches. And yet this is an affront to your sensibilities.....

The only part that stuns me is what took him 4 years for it to dawn on him.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Moose - if someone is giving an alibi then those same rules surely also apply?

Something a little more concrete than a press release from the rider concerned. Or do we only demand evidence from the people who are disagreeing with us?

Claims have been made that Contador suffers from the same condition as his brother - which as I have said seems unlikely as Contador's own website says his brother has Cerebral Palsy (not congenital), while Contador's problem is cavernoma, which is congenital. Maybe someone who is an expert on central nervous system disorders can shed more light on it. So is it up to those make the claims to 'prove' that both brothers have the same problem? Or just the person claiming that they don't have the same condition?

If Armstrong/Menchov/Basso were to claim to have recently been diagnosed with ADHD and were to need to take Ritalin (as 106 baseball players have been) would you think it fair or unfair to question his story?

 

[Publicus]

It's not an issue of court of law vs. message board. The rules of logic aren't suddenly suspended just because you're on a message board. I'm not saying that I disagree with the assertion that Contador may be doping, but so far, you're only bringing innuendo to the table rather than anything remotely concrete.

This pretty much sums up my feeling on this topic as well.