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Did Armstrong pressure teammates to dope?

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Jun 16, 2010
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Of course Lance pressured his enitire team to do whatever he wanted.

A friend was a former teammate on the Motorola squad. After he left, his name came up at a team dinner. Lance (he of the foul mouth) practically screamed, "XYX? He's a fukking idiot! He's so stupid! If he'd had a "program", he could have won the Tour two or three times. But he's just a fukking loser!"

Everyone present was expected to laugh on cue at all the right spots, lest they invoke the wrath of Lance the Great. Despite most of these men being good friends with the departed teammate.

Lance is just a big fat bully and a coward. That, plus he dopes.
 
A

Anonymous

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redtreviso said:
Doping around Lance is like child sex vacations for Republicans.. The GOP leadership only trusts their people after they have joined the sex with children club. Lance needed the silence provided by having everyone around him guilty.
Maybe Karl Rove has worked for Lance from the beginning.

I'm sure you have reams of data to support this stupid post. Please link away.

Oh, and keep your ignorant political jabs quarantined in the proper thread for the sake of sane people everywhere.
 
Sep 13, 2010
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redtreviso said:
Doping around Lance is like child sex vacations for Republicans.. The GOP leadership only trusts their people after they have joined the sex with children club. Lance needed the silence provided by having everyone around him guilty.
Maybe Karl Rove has worked for Lance from the beginning.

Wow, you typed all that with just one hand?! :eek:
 
Jun 19, 2009
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It would appear Lance embraced the time-honored team Patron status. He didn't invent it and probably has many brethren on other teams. He may have "encouraged" or bullied other riders into considering the services of Ferrari or whomever. All of that makes him a traditional team leader, circa the 70's and 80's in an era where there is no lack of information on PEDs and their impact. Any teammates that took the stuff did it to recieve and protect a paycheck and that's the difference if Lance has a stake in the workplace. They are guilty and he would be if he advanced his business ambitions by compromising their health and legal standing.

In the end it was his team member's choice to take the check$. Period.
Lance will be scrutinized for his part in the supply chain more likely.
 
Oldman said:
It would appear Lance embraced the time-honored team Patron status. He didn't invent it and probably has many brethren on other teams. He may have "encouraged" or bullied other riders into considering the services of Ferrari or whomever. All of that makes him a traditional team leader, circa the 70's and 80's in an era where there is no lack of information on PEDs and their impact. Any teammates that took the stuff did it to recieve and protect a paycheck and that's the difference if Lance has a stake in the workplace. They are guilty and he would be if he advanced his business ambitions by compromising their health and legal standing.

In the end it was his team member's choice to take the check$. Period.
Lance will be scrutinized for his part in the supply chain more likely.

more like The Godfather... "I made him an offer he couldn't refuse."
 
Jul 15, 2010
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Oldman said:
In the end it was his team member's choice to take the check$. Period.

Umm, no "period".

By your argument a mob boss would be not guilty of committing crimes, because he only paid the cheques, and it was the underlings choice to commit the crimes.

It won't fly. Encouraging others is the same as taking it yourself. (And punished accordingly by the UCI.)
 
Polish said:
Tyler made a choice to dope at CSC. Floyd made a choice to dope at Phonak.

They did not have to worry about Lance flushing their blood down the toilet at those teams lol.

Lance, the Flusher Man....

Floyd also made a choice to dope while riding for Armstrong. He specifically said in his admissions he told Johan he was willing to do anything it took. Polish, while I'm not too keen to agree with you too often people has got to wake up to the fact that each rider made their own choice.

Still there's no doubt the big man hisself was inhaling and there's not much doubt that if you wanted to ride the tour on that team - you had to inhale too.

Yes, there was a culture on the (inner circle of the) team and, yes, LA probably added a lot of personal pressure - but in the end I think most of the riders needed very little pressuring to start with.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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don’t know what to say about the nyt article… the only real news is that mcilvain will be testifying as son as next week. this points to a brisk pace of the investigation and that’s a good thing.

is it really the news that armstrong could have pressured/encouraged/brow beaten (chose your words, i don’t care) his team mates into doping ?

pardon, it’s an axiom to me. everything i learned or heard of his personality screams at you from the roof tops the notion.

now, i admit in the legal world things are more complicated. still i doubt novi will have trouble finding supporting evidence given the human nature of piling up on a (perceived or real) dwindling threat of retribution.
 
What I don't get.
If LA is mediocrially talented, and in his Motorola days already on the juice, how did he ever get to become a big 3-week rider in a sport where everyone doped? Is that "just" the high-cadance and one-race-per-year theme he monopolized?
 
Cloxxki said:
What I don't get.
If LA is mediocrially talented, and in his Motorola days already on the juice, how did he ever get to become a big 3-week rider in a sport where everyone doped? Is that "just" the high-cadance and one-race-per-year theme he monopolized?

Michele Ferrari was the key factor.
 
Jun 12, 2010
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Cloxxki said:
What I don't get.
If LA is mediocrially talented, and in his Motorola days already on the juice, how did he ever get to become a big 3-week rider in a sport where everyone doped? Is that "just" the high-cadance and one-race-per-year theme he monopolized?

For whatever it's worth, he also appeared to be racing at a significantly lower weight at the Tour post-cancer.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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THISISIT said:
For whatever it's worth, he also appeared to be racing at a significantly lower weight at the Tour post-cancer.

It's not worth very much at all, because the weight difference was marginal.

When he first started using Ferrari after his comeback Frankie Andreu commented he looked like a "linebacker"

It is just one of those things that kept getting repeated, and those who wanted to believe it believed it.

All I saw was evidence of a fairly amateur steroid and hormone program of the Arsmtrong youth ("Cortisone neck" was an early nickname) evolving into a way more sophisticated blood doping program that cut the water retention and bulkiness down. Overall weight barely changed.
 

SpartacusRox

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Cloxxki said:
What I don't get.
If LA is mediocrially talented, and in his Motorola days already on the juice, how did he ever get to become a big 3-week rider in a sport where everyone doped? Is that "just" the high-cadance and one-race-per-year theme he monopolized?

Your not supposed to get it, your just supposed to agree!;)
Didn't you know that Lance was only a Cat 3 rider until he started on the Juice??

Of course it means that Jan and the others couldn't even manage to beat a mediocre rider like Armstrong even though they were juiced as well apparently.

The high cadence was the key of course, just spin it up at 120rpm and you too can be a TdF Champ.
 
Aug 13, 2010
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this is funny:

'Tim Herman, Armstrong’s lawyer, said the account of Armstrong’s admission of drug use to doctors in 1996 “just doesn’t seem plausible.” He said McIlvain had told the truth.

“We’ve got 600 pages’ worth of medical records that show the absence of any such conversation,” Herman said.'

hell, i could produce thousands of pages of stuff with an absence of any evidence that i was ever born. does that mean i don't exist?
 
Well, having been a bit of a bike racer myself, I do know that the cadance thing was and is underrated by pro riders. It gave me a reason to believe Lance when he started winning that way.
There are some substantial gains to be had there. It's trainable. I went from a natural 101rpm at LTH to 113rpm within a season. Road bikes being so convervatively designed and races being won uphill, I can see the point of learning to spin your legs despite the bike hanging over backward by 10%. Or, standing on the pedals for that matter.
But yeah, Ferrari's fine-tuning must have been key, good point.
 
The Hitch said:
Seeing what we know about this thing of ours during the Armstrong era, the proffesion itself required riders to dope. You didnt need Lance to do it. If they werent doping they wouldnt be on his team in the first place.

I think this is true. I'd be really surprised if all the top riders of that era were not doing some form of doping. Just as an example indicator, recall the late Marco Pantani's mother claimed, after his death, that there was much Marco wanted to come forth and say about the doping going on in the peloton but didn't. Her claim was that the extensive doping going on was partly responsible for the demise of Marco's career and, eventually, life. Point being, this is not necessarily one man applying pressure, but the nature of the sport with other riders from multiple teams doping and the effect this has on all the other riders who want to keep up and perform at the same level.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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FactChecker said:
Umm, no "period".

By your argument a mob boss would be not guilty of committing crimes, because he only paid the cheques, and it was the underlings choice to commit the crimes.

It won't fly. Encouraging others is the same as taking it yourself. (And punished accordingly by the UCI.)

You have to read complete sentences:
They are guilty and he would be if he advanced his business ambitions by compromising their health and legal standing.
They are responsible for putting a needle in their body. Period. If they want the money and glory that much they aren't much better than Lance.
What makes him more intolerable is his willingness to jeopardize their health for his sole profit.
 
Jun 28, 2009
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ezwicky said:
this is funny:

'Tim Herman, Armstrong’s lawyer, said the account of Armstrong’s admission of drug use to doctors in 1996 “just doesn’t seem plausible.” He said McIlvain had told the truth.

“We’ve got 600 pages’ worth of medical records that show the absence of any such conversation,” Herman said.'

hell, i could produce thousands of pages of stuff with an absence of any evidence that i was ever born. does that mean i don't exist?

Very, very funny stuff. I'm a cyclist and I was treated for cancer in the mid 90s. I remember very clearly a doctor and a nurse coming into my room when it was just my mother and myself sitting there. They wanted to ask some personal history questions and indicated I might want my mother to leave the room. Here I was diagnosed with cancer and what the f*ck did I care whether my mother knew about all the things I had done in the past. She sat there, she in her late 40s, me in my late 20s, as I told the docs everything about my past not giving a rats a$$ what my mother thought. They sure do ask you about previous drug usage if you are diagnosed and going to be treated for cancer. I was at one of the best cancer/teaching hospitals in the nation and LA had one of the best cancer teams also. I am pretty sure they were thorough with him. Funny how we have selective memory when we select to.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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jmax22 said:
"Armstrong, who for years has vehemently denied doping, testified that no one at the hospital had asked him if he had used performance-enhancing drugs."

Seriously dude? You're being treated for a deadly disease and nobody asked if you were on any drugs. I've been asked that when I got my wisdom teeth pulled, when I got stitches for a cut in my head, when I had a herniated disc in my back and when I broke my arm.

Um, that's a pretty standard question, and to claim he wasn't asked if he was on any drugs is more than hard to believe. But, they have 600 pages of documentation, which apparently includes 100% of the conversations Lance had with any medical personel in the hospital. Um, right, that is also standard procedure. Just get this over with and prosecute the d-bag, it's pretty obvious he's guilty as sin and the stuff he and his dimwitted PR guy Fabiani spew is so embarrasing, it's rediculous.


So if is standard procedure, then his answers would be in the Medical Records.
If they are not in the records, then we should assume that he was either, not asked the questions or they were not recorded or the answer was NO.

Please show me some real evidence that these people(Frankie, Betsy and Stephanie) really heard LA admit to using PED's while racing as opposed to being part of a medical treatment program. When Doctors deny that such conversation took place.

I know that leaping to conclusions is your favorite sport but is hardly based on any real facts.

The 600 pages apparently don't include one fact about LA's admission of PED use or this case would already be over.
 
Oldbiker said:
The 600 pages apparently don't include one fact about LA's admission of PED use or this case would already be over.

Case would be over? – not sure the Feds are looking for evidence of drug use prior to 1996. The $500,000 payment to the hospital might be a little more interesting.

None the less I think that the fact that there is no record of what drugs Armstrong might have been on whether PED or not is more revealing than the fact if there was a statement in the records of PED use. Shows more about collusion and coercing. I’d be more worried about that not being there than it being there if I was Armstrong. At the minimum it shows incompetence on behalf of his medical team – but hey – they were the best medical team – supposedly – he he’s cancer was very serious – so we were told.
 

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Jun 19, 2009
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Oldbiker said:
So if is standard procedure, then his answers would be in the Medical Records.
If they are not in the records, then we should assume that he was either, not asked the questions or they were not recorded or the answer was NO.

Please show me some real evidence that these people(Frankie, Betsy and Stephanie) really heard LA admit to using PED's while racing as opposed to being part of a medical treatment program. When Doctors deny that such conversation took place.

I know that leaping to conclusions is your favorite sport but is hardly based on any real facts.

The 600 pages apparently don't include one fact about LA's admission of PED use or this case would already be over.

Have you seen the 600 pages? No, me neither.

To your point that it may have been part of his "medical treatment" - well Lance said in his testimony that no Doctors questioned him at all in their presence:
Q. Okay. Do you have any recollection while these individuals were there that a doctor or doctors came into the room and discussed with you your medical treatment or your condition?
A. Absolutely not.
Q. Okay.
A. That didn't happen.

When the Andreus were shown a photo of Dr. Craig Nichols they said he was not one of the Doctors that asked the question - so Nichols is correct in saying that he does not remember this incident.

But as you like facts -
Livestrong made a $1.5 million donation to the Indiana University Cancer Center where the incident took place and gave $500,000 to the OHSU Cancer Institute where Dr. Nichols worked.
All within a few months of the SCA case.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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It's not hard to imagine he did pressure teammates in a number of ways, including to dope.

From early in his career he displayed an alpha-personality, even publically.

I remember watching Wide World of Sports in the US back in 1994 and they did a story on Lance as America's new young World Champion. He was hanging around Austin and on the Gulf Coast, driving a sports car with Raul Alcala, Motorola's then big new GT signing.

Alcala cut a forlorn figure throughout the whole piece to the American's brogadacio.

In a telling encounter, the two had just been water-skiing. Lance jumped in the boat fully-pumped and said to Alcala, "That was...orgasmic!", and shook his head wildly. The hapless Alcala smiled uncomfortably as he sat on the edge of the boat, palpably embarrased by the American's swagger and wishing he was anywhere else but there.

At this stage Alcala was an established grand tour rider and then-champion of America's only professional stage race, the erstwhile Tour de Trump. Lance was a 21 year old kid!

That being so, one thing that bemuses me is the apparent meekishness of professional cyclists: are there none who are prepared to stand up to the guy and tell him to p*ss off? Cycling attracts certain kinds of personalities, it seems: anxious OCD freaks who like to tortue themselves training, seeking perfection, just to be willing to be dominated by someone 'tougher'.

The only one who springs to mind is Robbie McEwen. No harm done there. I think Lance even came to respect McEwen; most bullies are just cowards and their aggression is just a front. If you're on another team he can't hurt your income, and his fists aren't going to speak.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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Oldbiker said:
So if is standard procedure, then his answers would be in the Medical Records.
If they are not in the records, then we should assume that he was either, not asked the questions or they were not recorded or the answer was NO.

Please show me some real evidence that these people(Frankie, Betsy and Stephanie) really heard LA admit to using PED's while racing as opposed to being part of a medical treatment program. When Doctors deny that such conversation took place.

I know that leaping to conclusions is your favorite sport but is hardly based on any real facts.

The 600 pages apparently don't include one fact about LA's admission of PED use or this case would already be over.


Please explain how eyewitness (or in this case, earwitness) testimony is not "real evidence."
 
Oldbiker said:
So if is standard procedure, then his answers would be in the Medical Records.
If they are not in the records, then we should assume that he was either, not asked the questions or they were not recorded or the answer was NO.

As has been stated a number of times, it is a teaching hospital. In addition to official rounds, students are taken through the hospital and might be asked to take a patient history, or "present" the case to the teaching physician.

As this can happen several times a day, often by students or doctors not immediately responsible for the patient's care, much of it isn't written into the patient's official record.

Given that the incient allegedly occurred well into Armstrong's treatment and (hopefully) long after the official history was taken, it is not unreasonable to assume this particular episode was part of treaching rounds.

While a third year med student might ask a salient question, the answer may not necessarily be written down.