Difference between American and European fans

[yourwelcome]

The article linked earlier is actually a pretty good background primer and well written, but it reads like a historical document. These days your average middle class urban professional cycling fan from Europe is going to have a lot more in common with his/her equivalent in the US or Australia. And the notion of a coherent 'European' attitude towards anything would be ridiculous to most Europeans.

 

[Alex99]

Woooooooooooooooow we have a strong candidate for the village idiot competition

Coming from you, I'll take that as a compliment

 

[Alex99]

My gosh I think George Bush has started posting here!

I love the bit about "American consumers" - I suppose we are all consumers in a way - but with reference to sport I think this can be where the problems start. Sport is for the participants. I guess the fans, spectators, onlookers do spend money and buy stuff - so consumers they are - but once the pendulum swings from competition to entertainment the problems kick in. Just in my opinion. Probably a topic for another thread and another day.

Professional sports is NOTHING else than entertainment!

 

[yourwelcome]

Woooooooooooooooow we have a strong candidate for the village idiot competition

As he seems to have been serious, your candidate is about to cross the line victorious. Priceless.

Edit: no wait, late charge by MicKKK in the Evans/unreliable Dutch wartime collaborators thread ;-)

 

[BroDeal]

America really does have a problem with puritanical thinking. It is in the country's DNA. There is an inability to see shades of gray or to take a nuanced view of things. It displays itself in all areas of American society. It might even be said to be built into the country's winner take all political system.

American fans, particularly the new ones, are largely middle or upper middle class and often middle aged people who ride for fitness; so it is understandable that their view of the sport would be very different from those who have grown up immersed in it. Add in some American moralism and you end up with a very naive view of what goes on in pro cycling.

BTW, Joe Parkin's book, A Dog in a Hat, mentioned in the article is a great read.

 

[Alex99]

America really does have a problem with puritanical thinking. It is in the country's DNA. There is an inability to see shades of gray or to take a nuanced view of things. It displays itself in all areas of American society. It might even be said to be built into the country's winner take all political system.

American fans, particularly the new ones, are largely middle or upper middle class and often middle aged people who ride for fitness; so it is understandable that their view of the sport would be very different from those who have grown up immersed in it. Add in some American moralism and you end up with a very naive view of what goes on in pro cycling.

That's the most sensible post on this topic so far. See, for Americans, like Lance once said, "it's all about the bike". You win because you are more dedicated, obey a more rigorous training schedule, are able to push yourself farther than the others - simply because you believe in that competitive edge you have.
Admitting to using performance enhancers just doesn't fit into that story.
BTW, nice to see how easy it is to shake things up on this forum

 

[yourwelcome]

America really does have a problem with puritanical thinking. It is in the country's DNA. There is an inability to see shades of gray or to take a nuanced view of things. It displays itself in all areas of American society. It might even be said to be built into the country's winner take all political system.

Goes for UK and Australia as well, to a lesser degree. Sometimes it's an admirable thing (I'm thinking of the idealism involved here), but has a dark side of intolerance and blindness to reality. Various degrees of it seem to be pretty well built into human DNA, forget about country (although in a historical perspective you're absolutely right about the ideological makeup of many of the European settlers who colonized North America).

 

[Alex99]

Goes for UK and Australia as well, to a lesser degree. Sometimes it's an admirable thing (I'm thinking of the idealism involved here), but has a dark side of intolerance and blindness to reality. Various degrees of it seem to be pretty well built into human DNA, forget about country (although in a historical perspective you're absolutely right about the ideological makeup of many of the European settlers who colonized North America).

Basically, it's the same thing in world politics (and everywhere else), where the US assume there's only one way to happiness. But that's touching on a different matter.

 

[yourwelcome]

Admitting to using performance enhancers just doesn't fit into that story.

Alex99, as long as you see that's exactly what the notion of a uniquely American sense of fairness and purity is: a story. An aspirational myth.

 

[BroDeal]

BTW, nice to see how easy it is to shake things up on this forum

Lots of people do not detect sarcasm very well. It is made more difficult by members who write sincere posts that can be read as sarcasm.

 

[Alex99]

Alex99, as long as you see that's exactly what the notion of a uniquely American sense of fairness and purity is: a story. An aspirational myth.

About the story: It helps when you look yourself in the mirror.

 

[Alex99]

Lots of people do not detect sarcasm very well. It is made more difficult by members who sincerely make posts that can be read as sarcasm.

Sorry, but that thread just was too much temptation to resist.

 

[Animal]

Nice simple article for simple armchair sports fans.

Oh, and Roche made his miraculous comeback on Delgado at La Plagne, not Alpe d'Huez.

 

[Zen Master]

As he seems to have been serious, your candidate is about to cross the line victorious. Priceless.

Edit: no wait, late charge by MicKKK in the Evans/unreliable Dutch wartime collaborators thread ;-)

Eh truth is sometimes weirder than fiction...

Well besides MicKKK my personal favorites are

Bobby The Muppet with this one

Possibly one of the greatest stage victories in the history of the TdF was Floyd's victory on the 17th stage of the '06 campaign. It set the stage for the final outcome and it proved that another American was again in the drivers seat of the world's greatest bike race. Yes, the TdF is the biggest, most influential cycling event in the world. Lots of pride and lots of money connected to that event. Lots of false-pride and lots of corrupt money exchanging hands behind the scenes.

The French don't like it when foreigners win on their turf. The French have an "attitude" that goes back well before the French Revolution. From the same family bloodlines, where "old" world money comes from, lies a power grabbing group that seeks to control anything they desire. Some of those old bloodlines live in France, and they don't like it when Americans with flair kick their a** on their turf. Lance was always riding on the edge during his run. He knew something was up then and constantly had to deal with a media, owned and manipulated by those same families, that questioned his integrity. Floyd was not so savvy in the world beyond his up bringing. He was innocent and naive. He didn't realize what power they had. How they could buy off some lab or lab technician with a few hundred thousand Euros (heck, they may even own the lab). They have power and they love to control the masses. Floyd was about as clean as clean could get, except for that shot of Jack D.

After Lance retired and decided to come back, he knew of their power, knew they could do anything the wanted to do. So, to protect himself, he is getting tested "in-house" by the Astana crew. He was going to have it done by another doctor but when Astana stepped up he didn't need to. Lance knows that once the sample leaves him, what it contains is subject to tampering. As long as those in-house samples of Lances are collected (possibly every day if necessary) by a reputable source, dated and properly stored, THAT is all that matters. What is done with the samples that go to a potentially corrupt lab technician is none of Lances concern. To bad Floyd hadn't taken the same precautionary measures back in '06 and had announced that he had in-house samples after each stage. Wow, imagine the outcome then!

Don't be concerned Floyd. You know you didn't need anything to improve your performance and that is all that matters. You are a great hero and mentor to myself and others in the race cycling world, who know that we live in a world full of corrupt politicians owned by the greedy corporations, who in turn are owned by families with old, very old money that possess' an awful stench.

As those same families continue to siphon off "bail out" money that Americans worked hard for, eventually, after our economy collapses (2009), then people who doubted you (even in this thread) will get to experience first hand, who is running the show and how we are all affected and infected.

and fpcyclingn with this xenophobic little gem

Here's a thought. If you aren't from America, stop talking. Your opinion doesn't matter.

Second, you have to be an idiot to think Armstrong is going to NOT ride as a team. You know he would love to win, but:

1) He's smarter than you

2) He's also smarter than you.

3) He's way smarter than Bala Verde.

He will be able to determine very quickly where his performance level is and he'll be very quick to start riding in a way that ensures a team win, even if it means riding for Contador.

And Bala Verde, How is Armstrong a "mental wreck"? He's only one of the coolest, most suave, and intelligent racers ever to grace the sport of cycling.

Maybe that's why all you foreigners hate America. We're just too cool.

What are you... spanish? Why don't you keep your mouth closed unless I tell you to speak.

 

[ak-zaaf]

man, what a thread

"Any 7-year-old Flemish schoolchild," Bob Roll has written, "knows 100 times more about cycling than all Americans combined."

that didn't take long to be proved here ;p

 

[Mellow Velo]

Jeez, Zen, I must have missed that fp post, it's a beaut!

It's too easy to pin labels on nationalities, aided by the stuff quoted above, but it just isn't true.

They may be a minority in their own country, but there are some seriously knowledgeable, hard core US cycling fans, here. I find them all the more exceptional, as their "access" to top flight racing, until recently, has been extremely restricted.
It can't be easy to remain as objective as these guys do, when they see themselves getting lumped together with the xenophobic ranters and the (I love this group name) "Pollyanas", such as the "Drivel".

I can only imagine their frustration, when they read these type of postings.

There are also a lot of subjective, starry-eyed Euro posters, to be found, In my experience.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Obviously Alex 99's point was sarcastic, but the SI article did touch a little on the theme that the unhealthy aspects in Euro cycling only exist in Europe.

I never made it over myself, but I know quite a few ex teammates who went over to the States to race the occasional crits and stage races in the P-1-2- categories.

These were good Euro amateur riders, experienced in both crits (Dutch crits are really tough) and stage races.

They could not believe how fast American top level crits are. They were getting dropped early on, and average speeds nudging 50km/h were being recorded. They observed that a lot of prize money was on offer (sometimes a winner takes all prize) and a doping control was not a possibility.

Any rider with a brain knows what this means.

The stories I have heard are actually of naive young European riders being confronted with a racing culture of speed, speed and speed ;-)

 

[LugHugger]

Americans generally have no interest in cheating on others. These young riders come over to Europe, see what's going on, and after a long and hard-fought battle are finally pulled into the world of doping. This is just a very sad thing to happen, and I ask all young and hopeful American riders to please stay in this great country and not let themselves get corrupted on European turf. We can have a harder and more beautiful race than the TdF, generate genuine interest among American consumers, and simply block out the rest of the world, where nobody gives a d... about clean, fair sport.

ah, typical isolationism at it's best. and look what happens when you let this policy run it's course....

ps I should really know better and read the end of the thread before posting!

 

[Zen Master]

Jeez, Zen, I must have missed that fp post, it's a beaut!

It's too easy to pin labels on nationalities, aided by the stuff quoted above, but it just isn't true.

They may be a minority in their own country, but there are some seriously knowledgeable, hard core US cycling fans, here. I find them all the more exceptional, as their "access" to top flight racing, until recently, has been extremely restricted.
It can't be easy to remain as objective as these guys do, when they see themselves getting lumped together with the xenophobic ranters and the (I love this group name) "Pollyanas", such as the "Drivel".

I can only imagine their frustration, when they read these type of postings.

There are also a lot of subjective, starry-eyed Euro posters, to be found, In my experience.

Everything will be alright at the end of July because I noticed that 3-week fanboys have sometimes that silly " patriotic " touch. True cycling fans have some other differences, for example Shimano lovers, Campy lovers and SRAM lovers

 

[The Falcon]

America really does have a problem with puritanical thinking. It is in the country's DNA.

Yep, with Religious Fundamentalists for forefathers what do you expect? God Bless America.

Now, where is my wallet???

 

[Anonymous]

Americans generally have no interest in cheating on others. These young riders come over to Europe, see what's going on, and after a long and hard-fought battle are finally pulled into the world of doping. This is just a very sad thing to happen, and I ask all young and hopeful American riders to please stay in this great country and not let themselves get corrupted on European turf. We can have a harder and more beautiful race than the TdF, generate genuine interest among American consumers, and simply block out the rest of the world, where nobody gives a d... about clean, fair sport.

What complete and utter bullshit. One clear example is Karting. The Europeans kick our asses handily whenever there is a race involving Americans. The reason? Their European kids use the spec karts spec with few exceptions. Our kids go over there from the states and the biggest winners (notice I didn't say best drivers) are the ones whose dads always find a way to get them a little more power here. Most of them cheat like hell in the states. Then they get to international competition where the karts aren't theirs and guess what? They get their asses handed to them. Cheating is in our blood and to suggest otherwise is just stupid.

 

[nobody]

What complete and utter bullshit. One clear example is Karting. The Europeans kick our asses handily whenever there is a race involving Americans. The reason? Their European kids use the spec karts spec with few exceptions. Our kids go over there from the states and the biggest winners (notice I didn't say best drivers) are the ones whose dads always find a way to get them a little more power here. Most of them cheat like hell in the states. Then they get to international competition where the karts aren't theirs and guess what? They get their asses handed to them. Cheating is in our blood and to suggest otherwise is just stupid.

There is somewhere a study that shows that everywhere there is a similar ratio of cheaters, and so... sometimes it's just lowered by a local (small island, small isolated town,...) or religious context.

 

[Alex99]

There is somewhere a study that shows that everywhere there is a similar ratio of cheaters, and so... sometimes it's just lowered by a local (small island, small isolated town,...) or religious context.

And I thought it was only those Europeans

 

[Pietro]

the question here is: Will it ever be comprehended by the LA fanatics?

Bad Blood by Jeremy Whittle.

-read it, it is a good one.

 

[TrapperJohn]

Basically, it's the same thing in world politics (and everywhere else), where the US assume there's only one way to happiness. But that's touching on a different matter.

Everyone thinks there's one way to happiness. Because the US is a larger country with a bit more clout, they don't have to compromise as much.

That's the way it always has been. At one point, the UK ruled 1/4 of known civilization. They were equally uncompromising, and equally focused on what they wanted, usually at the expense of someone else. The same could be said of France during the time of Napolean, not very considerate of the countries over which they rolled.

It was an interesting article, especially how LeMond and Armstrong altered professional cycling.